SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[Fight]

I promote SWG a lot I know, apologies if you have seen me talk about it recently in another thread. I did truly enjoy my time playing it pre NGE though.

 

Now thats said: I spent probably 50% of my time (if not more) in SWG decorating my houses, riding around (later driving around) planets looking for obscure crafters shops and collecting RNG materials for crafting.

 

I'm a power leveler and a man, decorating and faffing isn't something I logged on to do, but when I started doing it I sort of got lost in the details and enjoyed myself, 5 hours would pass on a day off work and I literally hadn't killed a mob yet. I logged off with a sense of achievement after visiting the cantina to physically say good night to the entertainers who hung out in our cities cantina and took care of the people who chose combat as a role.

 

From a social and time sink perspective that defective, buggy and crazy game was 10 million years ahead of SWTOR - in my opinion (PLEASE PLEASE pay attention to the part where I say its MY opinion!)

 

That has to be the future of a money driven MMO? I cant see themepark offering that kind of immersion at all.

[SnoggyMack]

I promote SWG a lot I know, apologies if you have seen me talk about it recently in another thread. I did truly enjoy my time playing it pre NGE though.

 

Now thats said: I spent probably 50% of my time (if not more) in SWG decorating my houses, riding around (later driving around) planets looking for obscure crafters shops and collecting RNG materials for crafting.

 

I'm a power leveler and a man, decorating and faffing isn't something I logged on to do, but when I started doing it I sort of got lost in the details and enjoyed myself, 5 hours would pass on a day off work and I literally hadn't killed a mob yet. I logged off with a sense of achievement after visiting the cantina to physically say good night to the entertainers who hung out in our cities cantina and took care of the people who chose combat as a role.

 

From a social and time sink perspective that defective, buggy and crazy game was 10 million years ahead of SWTOR - in my opinion (PLEASE PLEASE pay attention to the part where I say its MY opinion!)

 

That has to be the future of a money driven MMO? I cant see themepark offering that kind of immersion at all.

 

That type of gameplay experience still exists. It's called Second Life. And it appeals to a large mass of humanity. You should give it a go.

[Ethern]

Lol a game that goes ftp is not a success:)

It's a huge success. F2P is just another economical business. There are countless P2P elements in that game.

D&D made much more profits F2P then P2P.

[Goretzu]

it actually changed payment models, and became much more successful and profitable. LOTRO failed because it broke form traditional end game and had no Sauron faction. many many players wanted to play evil faction . that plus no true end game raiding or Dungeons really hurt it at launch. It was a turbine game that right there was aa bad decision.

 

 

I wouldn't say it failed, it did pretty well considering it missed the big movies boost by a few years.

 

It failed compared to WoW, but then so has every Western MMORPG released after WoW, in that narrow definition of success.

 

It's more that it is very, very difficult to retain a subscription model in the post-WoW world, and even more difficult in 2012 than it was in 2007 I think.

 

 

Holding on to a subs model can be much worse, look at WAR and how many servers it has left.

[ArtMonster]

Lol a game that goes ftp is not a success:)

 

do some business model and market research ..... you will be suprised how wrong you actually are.

 

.microtransactions are a gold mine.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ArtMonster

[Deewe]

And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc.

Not really, or should I say it has been done since long time ago.

 

Let me take SWG as example (2004). Did you know the planets where divided between multiple servers? And still you did not have loading screens at all. People noticed this at launch as when you crossed a zone limit you would sometimes experience weird issues.

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

Yes, they know that: Senior Social Designer position

[knightblaster]

 

It's more that it is very, very difficult to retain a subscription model in the post-WoW world, and even more difficult in 2012 than it was in 2007 I think.

 

 

Holding on to a subs model can be much worse, look at WAR and how many servers it has left.

 

I agree.

 

I think we are living through the swan-song of the subscription model. It isn't very sustainable in a saturated market if you have significant development costs.

[marshalleck]

I agree.

 

I think we are living through the swan-song of the subscription model. It isn't very sustainable in a saturated market if you have significant development costs.

 

It's so refreshing to see posts from other people who pay attention to trending in the MMO market, and seem to have a clue. I've been enjoying your posts all morning.

 

+1

[knightblaster]

It's so refreshing to see posts from other people who pay attention to trending in the MMO market, and seem to have a clue. I've been enjoying your posts all morning.

 

+1

 

We need more people who are gamers to take the time to understand the broader market and the industry, I think. It will only help people understand why we see things happening as they do, and what is possible to change (and what might not be). It helps us become better "educated gamers", I think.

[Mephismo]

It's a huge success. F2P is just another economical business. There are countless P2P elements in that game.

D&D made much more profits F2P then P2P.

 

Both Turbine games both started with subscription models.

I have played both and disliked both

The best game they did Was AC 1,AC 2 was another fail

 

There are always some who like a game and they do strive to improve them but which brings in the most money ?

 

[Shingara]

Its so funny seeing posts like this, in the beta forums anything like this was shouted down as a vicously dangerous idea for the games direction. Alot of players who were from the old school mmo gamers like myself who have been playing computer games since the 80's and have earned our stripes on the 56k modem mmos and seen the benefits of sandbox and the benefits of themepark and have always known the true key to an mmo isnt that its one or the other but THE BEST MMO TO EVER SURVIVE shall be a blend of both factors. Edited February 12, 2012 by Shingara

[Triss]

Fully supported.

[ShonaChaos]

This was an awesome thread, I read all 27 pages or whatever.

Good thread!

I hope a lot of what will change in the near future will depend on the success of GW2.

No more fetch quest and raiding!

If GW2 can implement a satisfying endgame for the majority (there will always be haters) with their planned dynamic event levelling and RvR PvP setup, we could be in store for something really big and genre-changing.

[GalacticKegger]

This was an awesome thread, I read all 27 pages or whatever.

Good thread!

I hope a lot of what will change in the near future will depend on the success of GW2.

No more fetch quest and raiding!

If GW2 can implement a satisfying endgame for the majority (there will always be haters) with their planned dynamic event levelling and RvR PvP setup, we could be in store for something really big and genre-changing.

Ummm ... does NCSoft pay well?

[Ethern]

Both Turbine games both started with subscription models.

I have played both and disliked both

The best game they did Was AC 1,AC 2 was another fail

 

There are always some who like a game and they do strive to improve them but which brings in the most money ?

 

On lotro it was codemaster first. Turbine later.

Lotro is still considered as one of the best MMO to date. Sandboxers and themeparkers have both content.

[tekkamansoul]

"I'm a compsci major"

 

This means you've never worked on a professional project.

 

This entire post is implying that your compsci major is somehow more involved and relevant than the 20 or so compsci majors that are working on the game right now.

 

You have no idea what they're doing internally. Go away.

Edited February 12, 2012 by tekkamansoul

[Duncker]

Read all of it.. Good stuff and even a few gems for an old fart to consider.

 

Not too many crap posts either.

 

Still leaves me slightly depressed about the future of mmo's though.

[Master-Nala]

Another veiled "please give us SWG back" thread. Some games just aren't for everyone. IF this game isn't for you, that's cool. Just move on and play something that is.

[DarthKhaos]

it actually changed payment models, and became much more successful and profitable. LOTRO failed because it broke form traditional end game and had no Sauron faction. many many players wanted to play evil faction . that plus no true end game raiding or Dungeons really hurt it at launch. It was a turbine game that right there was aa bad decision.

And people want to blame BioWare for the faction imbalance.

[Ansultares]

This quote boggles the mind. Chatting with others on the game is more important than playing the game? Maybe for you. If I wanted to meet others and blab, I'd go to such a service. I bought a game and I'm here to play it, not to hear about the weather on a different part of the continent.

The best MMOs focus on socializing while grinding through well presented time sinks. Low % drop rate actually is a more compelling mechanic than daily token rewards, for example.

 

Tailoring an MMO towards solo casuals is a terrible model; talk about needing to churn out constant content, and setting a difficulty level far below what will keep players engaged.

 

You need a tremendous story/game world to pull it off; BW didn't even come close.

 

It's so refreshing to see posts from other people who pay attention to trending in the MMO market, and seem to have a clue. I've been enjoying your posts all morning.

I suggested back in AoC, and stand by that suggestion, that a $30/m subscription model could work for niche games.

 

Both Turbine games both started with subscription models.

I have played both and disliked both

The best game they did Was AC 1,AC 2 was another fail

AC2 was blatant fail, trying to capitalize on the more iconic content from AC1 (playable Lugians; rofl).

 

AC1 was a great game; it's a shame that it fell prey to heavy botting.

 

Asheron's Call's casting system was possibly the greatest crafting system I've ever come across, though vanilla WoW did a good job with rare limited count recipes on remote world vendors (at least I had to explore the game world, ffs).

Edited February 13, 2012 by Ansultares

[Varghjerta]

Personally i will just leave this game:(

But that is because basicly i just dont like how theme park MMO's have been turning out.

 

Easy lvling and easy gearing have become the norm and now when this game will implement DS and are talking about x-server i think it just becomes a CS type of play pick up and play while the 98% of all people have exactly the same gear that they gain from standing still or even just logged into the game .

 

But that is just my personal opinion

Edited February 13, 2012 by Varghjerta

[MithurElb]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...

 

Bioware has developed a very compelling game world. Many of the locations exhibit not only great beauty, but also are technically very challenging to design. Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc. The use of musical direction in setting the mood for areas, worlds, or quests is excellent. It's the only MMO I feel I can't play with the radio in the background or I won't get the proper effect.

 

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

You are rigth.

 

I prefer if they simply do sandbox games with a few of themepar, enough to get you start and running in the game.

 

But, in the end, is more or less the same.

[Nikeffo]

/signed. More Sandbox-elements. SWG had it until NGE (WoW in space), after NGE they lost 9/10 of the player base.

[Godincarnate]

/signed

 

for those that remember runescape.... i would love to see things like the house building that went on in there...

 

except with Custom Guild ships... Custom Housing.... Custom housing in each planet!

 

a hybrid of minecraft, runescape, and wow pets/rare mount/ rare vanity items would make this game much more enjoying for those with nothing to do...

[ActionPrinny]

There are a lot of ways housing could be implemented intelligently. Either just make use of the current hangar system to allow groupmates into your ship and offer more decorating/RP options inside of them. Or even allow purchasing of other/larger ships where maybe you have multiple in the hangar.

 

Otherwise in order to eliminate sprawl I was imagining you could have small areas on the maps on various planets or certain skyscrapers for this purpose. For the ones on the ground you could implement a "snapshot" system where a miniature version of the houses inside the "phase bubble" would be seen on the ground and when you went into the bubble it would expand into the housing instance. This would cut down on sprawl, while still maintaining a sense of being in the world instead of just the same zoneline for everyone.

 

As for the person insulting me simply because I don't have industry experience: It wasn't meant as a boast, merely to qualify I was making my comments from a more calculated position than the average poster that doesn't go nearly as in-depth. And I hardly think industry experience is a requirement to make an informed opinion when talking about genre trends. I admitted that I know sometimes the financing and upper management can get in the way of doing what you would LIKE to do. Reality sucks sometimes.

 

But they very clearly have a lot of quality of life issues with the game that stem from poor initial design work, rather than lack of time/resources. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" so-to-speak. Their one trump card to set them apart from WoW at launch would have been the Legacy System.

 

But instead of concentrating on say, voicing just the class quests to start (or class + main planet story) and finishing the Legacy System for launch. Or even polishing the end-game content and providing a queue system. They chose to expend the majority of their resources on the part of the game that people have been conditioned to blow through. They wanted to be like WoW -- well WoW "doesn't start until end-game". And they launched with a very weak showing for that. Even the whole PvP rewards system is so utterly convoluted with 5 types of commendations for just the initial rewards.

 

Please tell me where my analysis is majorly off?