SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[GalacticKegger]

Please link me a viable one button macro for a MM hunter in WoW 4.x.

 

What, just spam SS? What about your MMM procs, and your ISS buff? And hard casting Aimed under dynamic haste effects?

 

If you think you can one button macro modern day wow you have no idea how the class mechanics work.

Combat macros in WoW (other than targeting) are pretty much extinct now that the hotbar icons light up like whacka-a-mole christmas tree lights when it's their turn in the rotation. Edited February 8, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Uben]

if grinding mobs and chatting = sandbox then put me in the non-sandbox crowd.

 

I could watch some paint dry too, but why? why!?

 

That is not what it equals at all.

 

 

 

Want to be a baker, a doctor, a barber, a shoe salesman, ect.? Want to never have to kill a mob or NPC yet play daily and have a goal? Want to fish when yer tired of killing stuff? Want to travel across the world in any direction you want un-impeded? Want to host a wedding or holiday event with the full decorations and trappings? Want to be a resource magnate? Want to be a politician? Want to run a news agency and have reporters on the scene? Want to create your own art (like flags in PotBs) and sell it to others for in game currency? Want to have any different expierience than others in the same virtual world? Ect, ect, ect...

 

You are talking Sandbox.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Uben

[ShadoeWrayth]

You are defining sandbox from a geographic point o view only. And I think that most players (I, for sure) when we speak about sanbox, did it with other meaning.

 

For me, a sandbox game is that where you can modify the world. You don't follow a pre-determined path, but make your own path.

 

~SNIP~

 

So, in a sandbox the crafting is a lot more relevant than in a themepark. And another skills, apart from the figthing ones, could be very important.

 

Sorry for snipping, but we both apparently like to make long posts, and rather than have each page of the thread = 1 post (including a reply AND the quoted material) I ~snip~... lol

 

As for what you are describing, it fits under my description. Sandbox (in either case) allows the player to do whatever they want, but only within the constraints of the designed game. It is only that the term means different things in single-player vs MMO. One could call SWTOR a sandbox... if they were speaking about single-player games. Since it is an MMO, though, it is DEFINITELY NOT a sandbox. Yes, in the game you mention, you can place your fortress/guild hall/house/whatever, wherever you wish, and build it however you wish... but the design elements are part of the game. In a medieval sandbox MMO, I can build reasonable whatever castle or whatever that I wish... however, I cannot build a glass skyscraper, because it is not within the limitations of the game. Even the castles that you design are limited. I cannot build a flying citadel, for instance. Nor can I build exactly the shape or design I want every time. Even sandboxes have parameters.

 

So, yes, sandbox means geography and style of design (linear/non-linear) more than it means WHAT you can do. Fallout 3/Elder Scrolls are considered to be the best examples we have for an MMO-style sandbox (even though they are single-player)... yet, the housing in those games is exactly what they want you to have. No freedom of building stuff anywhere you want. No freedoms of truly crafting a unique weapon. You can go wherever you want, and do whatever you want... as long as the game has it in its program.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game

 

I would give more example sites, but unfortunately, every one of them seems to be attached to a game, so may be biased (IE Mortal, Darkfall, etc)

 

Needless to say, Sandbox tends to be attached to the Hardcore Player group, whereas Theme-Park is attached to Casual Players more often than not.

[Tic-]

if grinding mobs and chatting = sandbox then put me in the non-sandbox crowd.

 

I could watch some paint dry too, but why? why!?

 

I could run the same daily...daily

 

but why?

[ShadoeWrayth]

I could run the same daily...daily

 

but why?

 

Exactly! How about this equation for the original guy talking about 'grinding + chatting':

 

If gear grinding + not-chatting = fun...

 

Oh, sorry, that is what most modern games are, and it does NOT equal fun... it equals suck.

 

All MMO's are going to have some sort of grind to them: XP grinding, Gear grinding, Crafting grinding, etc...

 

So, the only thing you can change in YOUR equation would be the chatting ('B' variable), because every game is going to have the 'A' variable : Grinding. So, you just don't like games? or you don't like chatting and being social?

[DarthKhaos]

Thanks for the responses ShadoeWrayth & MithurElb my definition was closer to yours MithurElb. With that said I still don't see the Sanbox elements in WoW. Ok you get the Tol Bard buff and access to the raid, but I don't see any kind of change that others affect your game. Phasing is a single player thing and I don't like it because if my friend and I aren't in the same phase we can't even see each other.

 

From a Geographic point of view the later zones get pretty big and going from one end to the other even in the fastest speeder takes a while. From a cosmetic point of view WoW don't got it either. No houses, Boats, Fortresses, nothing. In my years playing WoW it's a what you see is what you get. If I want competitive PvP or raiding gear I'm going to look just like THAT guy. They added in a barber shop, cool. That can't be it?

 

I'm trying to figure out what Sandbox elements some posters are talking about that WoW has.

[ShadoeWrayth]

Thanks for the responses ShadoeWrayth & MithurElb my definition was closer to yours MithurElb. With that said I still don't see the Sanbox elements in WoW. Ok you get the Tol Bard buff and access to the raid, but I don't see any kind of change that others affect your game. Phasing is a single player thing and I don't like it because if my friend and I aren't in the same phase we can't even see each other.

 

From a Geographic point of view the later zones get pretty big and going from one end to the other even in the fastest speeder takes a while. From a cosmetic point of view WoW don't got it either. No houses, Boats, Fortresses, nothing. In my years playing WoW it's a what you see is what you get. If I want competitive PvP or raiding gear I'm going to look just like THAT guy. They added in a barber shop, cool. That can't be it?

 

I'm trying to figure out what Sandbox elements some posters are talking about that WoW has.

 

I understand what you are saying, but the problem is not Sandbox/Not Sandbox in what you are asking. It is designed content amount. Just because a game is Sandbox, does not mean it has complete freedom. There was a very short-lived MMO some years back called Ferentus. It was a Sandbox by all definitions that I can find. But it just had no content. The people who designed it did very poorly in adding stuff to the game, it was a few cities with quests and a whole LOT of enemies. No caves, no dungeons, nothing really to explore... Just a HUGE world, some cities, and enemies... =/

 

Like I said, "within parameters/constraints/etc" WoW doesn't have the "added content" you are expecting with modern games (some of which are NOT sandboxes), but this does not make WoW a non-sandbox game.

[DarthKhaos]

I understand what you are saying, but the problem is not Sandbox/Not Sandbox in what you are asking. It is designed content amount. Just because a game is Sandbox, does not mean it has complete freedom. There was a very short-lived MMO some years back called Ferentus. It was a Sandbox by all definitions that I can find. But it just had no content. The people who designed it did very poorly in adding stuff to the game, it was a few cities with quests and a whole LOT of enemies. No caves, no dungeons, nothing really to explore... Just a HUGE world, some cities, and enemies... =/

 

Like I said, "within parameters/constraints/etc" WoW doesn't have the "added content" you are expecting with modern games (some of which are NOT sandboxes), but this does not make WoW a non-sandbox game.

I get that. I know WoW is not a Sandbox game. I don't even know of an MMO that gives you complete freedom. I was just trying to figure out what sandbox ELEMENTS the guy was talking about that WoW has. No matter how much I twist and turn I don't see it. Customization? Barber Shop is the only thing I can think of. No housing, Guild Halls, Boats or Zeplins. User created content? Nope. Zone wide effects of your action that the player population can experience? Only thing I can think of is an area wide buff that resets in an hr or 2.

 

As far as I know WoW is a Themepark not a mostly Themepark with some Sandbox elements. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this is a bad thing but when claims like these are made I'd like them to back up their statements at least to clarify what they are talking about for the discussion.

[ActionPrinny]

Just take your open-space EVE request. From what you're saying, you want to be able to conquer and hold worlds or systems with your guild, compete for territory, etc. Such a setup would completely fly in the face of the entire lore and story of TOR, which has only two factions, and those factions own most of the galaxy.

 

I agree that at this point, seeing as the game is already released, the EVE-style space sim is highly unlikely. (Although SWG's Jump to Lightspeed wasn't entirely dissimilar in scope) If it were implemented, it would be more that you would be controlling/conquering areas for the Empire or Republic. Or you could be neutral and set up your own trading/mining/whatever outpost in systems.

 

Another great thing about it is the content is very easy to create. You can procedurally generate hundreds or thousands of systems, for example. Then just go in by hand to seed some more points of interest once they're generated.

 

I fully admit that this is akin to placing two games in one almost. But it would definitely flesh out SWTOR into a more complete representation of an actual galaxy at war, etc.

[Geewiz]

Game needs less themepark, especially after 50. Need real risk versus reward gameplay. Needs sandbox crafting system and sandbox economy, even sandbox character ability customization (hope legacy helps with this instead of delivering fluff)

[Bokarf]

What a great post, OP. I agree with you and wish you were a bioware employee ... but hey, don't hate on mythic! I like their games until EA comes in and breaks them.

[lollermittens]

BW tried to include socialization within the game using heroic quests. They just didn't provide the necessary infrastructure to make them work.

 

Agree with everything else that you've said.

[zoofar]

I don't think that it's the later MMO mechanics or gameplay style that are affecting the socializing part. I think that the playerbase has actually changed and is considerably less inclined to be social. "Old-school" MMO:ers are still as social, but alot of new less social players have flooded the genre. Thus we wont experience the same kind of community-building we once saw again. Sadly.

 

Haven't you also noticed that even old-chool socializers very rarely initiate contact today? Because it's not worth the risk of accidentaly trying to socialize one of the million trolls playing.

 

There are still lots of nice people too of course, but that's my dark theory - The player base changed and that is the prime 'cause of the not so social atmosphere today.

Edited February 12, 2012 by zoofar

[porksbro]

YES eve like space but nicer i was thinking the same thing!!!!!( but i like how in eve you have to buy ships and goods that are made by players and you can get from drops. i like too that when you die you loss your ship craft is needed all over again)

 

if BW can pull off a sweet space revamp that will bring ppl back and new ones in.

[TheSwamper]

My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW)

 

A lot of that is because EQ1 had a lot of pointless timesinks, not because it had hours more content. Also, much of the content it did have required groups, which take time to form, more time not playing.... I see nothing good from artificial lengthening.

The only way I'd be happy to take 50 days to hit level cap is if most of it was class quests.

 

 

.... but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character.

 

This quote boggles the mind. Chatting with others on the game is more important than playing the game? Maybe for you. If I wanted to meet others and blab, I'd go to such a service. I bought a game and I'm here to play it, not to hear about the weather on a different part of the continent.

 

 

I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

The more soloable a game is, the more likely I am to buy it, and vice versa. Forced grouping has been proven time and again to be a subscription killer. And these games are made for the purpose making money, not to facilitate making friends. That might happen as a happy by-product, but it is not their intended purpose, nor should it be skewed to be so.

 

.... Player housing

 

Unless they are going to offer us pre-placed apartments in cities, then a big no to player housing for me. If they can be put anywhere, it causes ugly sprawl. If they are in their own out of the way area (a la Lotro), they become nearly useless for the timesinks involved traveling back and forth.

 

I think the OP makes some valid points earlier, but some of this stuff is certainly NOT wanted by many players.

[JerokTalram]

i dont want a korean grind fest, but i do want slower leveling on this game, the amount of xp you get from stuff is ridiculous, im overleveling stuff so much that its not even a challenge, though its probably just an issue @ 34 something i find that im a good 6 or 7 levels above everything on that planet wich makes it ridiculously easy

 

yes i want slower leveling but without the grindy part, endlessly killing mobs isnt my idea of fun..

 

but , i do think its very important what you said, MAKE ME SPEND MORE TIME IN ZONES , it does create a fair amount of socializing ive met plenty on my server already just via general chat for the planet im on

 

If you are 6 or 7 levels above the content, you must be running heroics and flashpoints multiple times or doing lots of space and pvp. People just doing the regular quests are maybe a couple levels over the content but not 6. If they lower the xp of missions so that people have to do every quest, heroic and fp and play some PVP on the side just to stay at level, people will not happy. You need to give people some choice. So to slow down the leveling would require more content.

 

Besides 100-200 of play time is enough for leveling a Character. Especially when you have 7 classes with a unique story to play. SWTOR has tons of leveling content and it would be unreasonable to expect them to have provided more than they did.

Edited February 12, 2012 by JerokTalram

[Ethern]

Agreed with the OP. A themepark with sandbox elements is the way to go. Look at Lotro and take note.

There is a reason why I never reached the level cap in Lotro, and that I am already level 50 in TOR.

 

Festivals... I miss them.

[Mephismo]

It’s not the end of the road its just the beginning.

[JerokTalram]

You're missing the variation on point 1: You make a game like WoW, but not as good as WoW.

 

This game is exactly like WoW. Pick 1 of 2 factions. Pick 1 of 8-10 classes, SWTOR classes being mostly mirrors of WoW classes (see funny warrior ability jpg). Pick spec. Go do quests mostly of the "kill X wolves/collect Y spleens/deliver this package." Level. Put points in cookie-cutter talent builds. Make group with tank/healer/dps for dungeons/fps. At max level, grind gear from dungeons, do dailies, queue for bgs/wzs, do raids/ops.

 

I stopped reading the post here. TDLR

 

How are SWTOR 'mostly mirrors' of WoW classes? SWTOR has 4 gun based range classes, 3 melee and only one Casting class. What does Wow have? (Quick check, I see a new class since I played) 5 Casters, 4 melee and one gun/bow based range class.

Edited February 12, 2012 by JerokTalram

[Ethern]

It’s not the end of the road its just the beginning.

Let's hope you're right. I'll see what 1.2 and the next expansion have in store in terms of quality of life elements.

[Ethern]

I stopped reading the post here. TDLR

 

How are SWTOR 'mostly mirrors' of WoW classes? SWTOR has 4 gun based range classes, 3 melee and only one Casting class. What does Wow have? (Quick check, I see a new class since I played) 5 Casters, 4 melee and one gun/bow based range class.

I don't remember which article was that, but it demonstrated how the Sith warriors abilities were a rip off of the WoW's warrior. The name were barely changed.

[Mephismo]

Agreed with the OP. A themepark with sandbox elements is the way to go. Look at Lotro and take note.

There is a reason why I never reached the level cap in Lotro, and that I am already level 50 in TOR.

 

Festivals... I miss them.

 

Lol a game that goes ftp is not a success:)

[Arnokar]

I don't think that it's a matter of "sandbox" vs "theme park" design. I think it's mostly due to the media games ate being presented on. We, as enthusiasts simply need "more better" input.

 

When I first started playing games it was on a black and white tv, my first RPG(to me) was

"Adventure" on Atari....but I " felt" like I was in game...my imagination was at work...

 

I didn't get that feeling back until I started playing MMOs not too long ago...(2005?)

First time I went into Azeroth on a 15" CRT monitor, I was like, literally blown away...

 

Fast forward to today....game designs aside, I don't get THAT feeling anymore..

 

I'm not burned out on the genre....just the way it's presented. I have(and believe most of us have) become spoiled or my senses have dulled to the game worlds.

 

So no matter what kind of game, be it sandbox or theme park doesn't make a difference to me, so long as I can get that old familiar "feeling" back...And I don't think that will happen until a new form of media is used for presentation..

 

Virtual reality any one? Maybe some day...

[JerokTalram]

I don't remember which article was that, but it demonstrated how the Sith warriors abilities were a rip off of the WoW's warrior. The name were barely changed.

 

That's only 2 classes. SWTOR has more than that

[wifeaggro]

Lol a game that goes ftp is not a success:)

 

it actually changed payment models, and became much more successful and profitable. LOTRO failed because it broke form traditional end game and had no Sauron faction. many many players wanted to play evil faction . that plus no true end game raiding or Dungeons really hurt it at launch. It was a turbine game that right there was aa bad decision.