SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[ActionPrinny]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...

 

Bioware has developed a very compelling game world. Many of the locations exhibit not only great beauty, but also are technically very challenging to design. Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc. The use of musical direction in setting the mood for areas, worlds, or quests is excellent. It's the only MMO I feel I can't play with the radio in the background or I won't get the proper effect.

 

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

Edited February 7, 2012 by ActionPrinny

[drksidejunkie]

/signed

 

 

 

I understand that people would lose their biscuits if any company tried to bring back an old school leveling system / sandbox game to the market nowadays (thanks wow!).

 

I do see the benefits of the hybrid though - having some sandbox type areas would greatly increase the desire to keep logging in for a large majority of people (the old school gamers I think mainly - and there are a lot of us out there!).

 

 

Some of my best memories from old school MMO's is simply wandering across the world and coming across random dungeons, finding epic loot / boss critters, etc.

 

 

I really miss simply being able to pick a direction and start running and being completely engrossed in the game as I travel. Nowadays the player is led by the nose everywhere and spoon fed the game and every players experience is pretty much identical.

 

 

Which is very terribly sad, and if things don't change - it will be the downfall of the genre as a whole.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Qishari
inappropriate content

[VenthiosLestaran]

/signed

 

 

I understand that people would lose their biscuits if any company tried to bring back an old school leveling system / sandbox game to the market nowadays (thanks wow!).

 

I do see the benefits of the hybrid though - having some sandbox type areas would greatly increase the desire to keep logging in for a large majority of people (the old school gamers I think mainly - and there are a lot of us out there!).

 

 

Some of my best memories from old school MMO's is simply wandering across the world and coming across random dungeons, finding epic loot / boss critters, etc.

 

I really miss simply being able to pick a direction and start running and being completely engrossed in the game as I travel. Nowadays the player is led by the nose everywhere and spoon fed the game and every players experience is pretty much identical.

 

 

Which is very terribly sad, and if things don't change - it will be the downfall of the genre as a whole.

 

Thankfully things are changing. Games are coming out that have quite different systems to work with. TERA/GW2/Secret world, all of which are quite open ended, and those are just the top ones that are well known.

 

Check out GW2 if you love pvp and fantasy pve. Secret world is modern but has a sub. Tera is more asian themed fantasy with super skimpy armor (Not my thing), and you have to actually guide your attacks into a mob, where as in GW2 you actively evade.

 

Check em out, you might like em.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Qishari
inappropriate content

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Death by a thousand paper cuts lol.

[Tornak]

Agreed.

[GthcRvn]

While it would be fantastic to see a company take a risk, the ones that do seem to get smashed against the rocks.

[ActionPrinny]

Death by a thousand paper cuts lol.

 

What I mean by that (In a thread I'll write after I wake up when more people are on) is all those little issues with the game that you go "hmm this feels weird. this is bad. why did they do it this way?" etc.

 

Like all the time you spend walking through spaceports without even your speeder. How poorly designed the GTN Market window is set up. (options don't get saved when you switch categories. not being able to do a string search until you've picked the exact sub-category, windows closing on their own when you open another, etc. )

 

There is a breadcrumb at L50 to send you to Ilum, but none for Belsavis dailies. No guidance on anything to deal with operations, earning daily commendations, pvp rewards, etc. (Redacted) **I'm sorry didn't notice the ones at Belsavis. But not having them at Vaiken is still odd.** No explanation on what each of the ships in the Imperial Fleet is for asfaras interfleet transport is concerned. The whole system of getting warzone tokens and converting them to mercenary ones to then buy Champion bags for Centurion tokens and possible champion equipment, etc. is so convoluted and ugly ... I dunno.

 

I understand the limitations of time and budget constraints. But a lot of these issues show a gross lack of fundamental understanding of MMOs and the attention to detail that a great game experience entails. Stuff that doesn't come down to extra time -- but to proper initial design. They must have been consulting Mythic employees for MMO tips lol... big mistake.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ActionPrinny

[Qanlayeni]

Agreed

[ActionPrinny]

While it would be fantastic to see a company take a risk, the ones that do seem to get smashed against the rocks.

 

IMHO this is more risky than the alternatives. Spending $150M on a game designed to allow people to hit max level in 5 days /played. And then what initial end-game content you had is fairly obtuse and obfuscated. Then no fluff elements at all to distract people between content updates.

 

They've gone after the broadest possible gamer market for years now, and it's only bred a general subscriber with shorter and shorter attention spans. They've basically engineered themselves out of a genre almost at this point. The system is untenable atm.

 

The LFG system is rudimentary at best. The solo nature of most of the questing means finding a flashpoint group is very hard. Especially with no queue system in place. No consideration at all was made towards faction balance for launch -- even as simple as a note that "this server has extremely high Empire imbalance. please consider rolling Republic or choosing another server" would have been leaps better than the nothing they did.

[VenthiosLestaran]

While it would be fantastic to see a company take a risk, the ones that do seem to get smashed against the rocks.

 

Arena net is taking those risks. Check it.

[DarthKhaos]

I'm not saying this to be rude or saying this to troll even though some may disagree. However gamers need to realize that not every game they may be interested in is for them. If you don't like Themepark games don't play them. Some do and they will play it.

 

You don't HAVE to play SW:TOR no matter how much you want to play a Star Wars MMO. I want to play a Space Based MMO but EvE Online and Star Trek Online didn't do it for me so I am still waiting and NOT playing those.

[Goretzu]

SWTOR does desperately need some more open ended stuff (not nessicarly sandbox, but it could be).

 

At the moment you do hit a content wall, and then there's not a lot else to do other than alt (and whilst alts are actually good in SWTOR, the utter lack of different levelling paths makes that a chore after a few).

Edited February 7, 2012 by Goretzu

[Invitcted]

There are daily vendors on belsavis.

[ninoss]

@ OP:

 

Very good post

[phlashbios]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...[/i]

 

Excellent. And which MMO developer do you work for, and in what capacity ?

[ActionJim]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played "

 

I'm sorry, but this isn't Bioware's problem. I love Star Wars and video games. I've personally put hours/days/weeks of time into my 3 characters. However, I have yet to hit 50 on any of them. Someone who hits 50 in 5 days has got too much gametime on their hands. You can't rush through content, then complain you're out of game to play. Take some time off, take a break, get a job, go outside. I understand the frustration of short games. Short games are why I primarily use GameFly these days and buy only a couple games a year. This game, however, isn't short, and with the storylines and legacy system it's clear Bioware intends people to replay. Yet those people who have the time, patience and dedication to get to 50 in 5 days then turn around and complain they don't want to do it again? It's crazy.

[ActionPrinny]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played "

 

I'm sorry, but this isn't Bioware's problem. I love Star Wars and video games. I've personally put hours/days/weeks of time into my 3 characters. However, I have yet to hit 50 on any of them. Someone who hits 50 in 5 days has got too much gametime on their hands. You can't rush through content, then complain you're out of game to play.

 

Except it's still short, historically speaking, for MMOs. Especially if you consider that a lot more time is spent absorbing the ambiance in dialogue with the NPCs instead of actually fighting. I took my time and still got L50 in like 9 days /played. My first character in WoW at launch took 20. My EQ1 character took 50.

 

The Legacy system won't be implemented until 4-5 months after the game released. And we still have no concrete info on what it entails to keep people anticipating it. Not to mention that most people already rolled their alts -- so by the time the Legacy system comes out, a decent chunk of the playerbase will already have missed out on whatever Legacy options there are for alts.

 

No replacement for the rudimentary LFG system is in sight. Neither is a flashpoint queue system. Also the LFG comment section is only wide enough to read like 10 characters, and you can't resize the window or hover the comment to see the full thing. (AKA the quality of life stuff I was talking about)

[DarthKhaos]

No replacement for the rudimentary LFG system is in sight. Neither is a flashpoint queue system. Also the LFG comment section is only wide enough to read like 10 characters, and you can't resize the window or hover the comment to see the full thing. (AKA the quality of life stuff I was talking about)

If you mouse over the purple LFG icon in the list to the left of the player's name you see the entire comment.

 

This and other useful pieces of information about the current LFG Tool can be found by following the link in my signature.

[Vydor_HC]

@ OP:

 

Very good post

 

-seconded-

[Jellison]

I agree with you mostly. But you forget, BioWare's group and community content is 18x that of WoW's. At least.

[Foofie]

/signed

 

I would love if companies would stop with these leveling systems designed for people with down syndrome.

 

 

That's horrible.

[Radubadu]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played "

 

I'm sorry, but this isn't Bioware's problem. I love Star Wars and video games. I've personally put hours/days/weeks of time into my 3 characters. However, I have yet to hit 50 on any of them. Someone who hits 50 in 5 days has got too much gametime on their hands. You can't rush through content, then complain you're out of game to play. Take some time off, take a break, get a job, go outside. I understand the frustration of short games. Short games are why I primarily use GameFly these days and buy only a couple games a year. This game, however, isn't short, and with the storylines and legacy system it's clear Bioware intends people to replay. Yet those people who have the time, patience and dedication to get to 50 in 5 days then turn around and complain they don't want to do it again? It's crazy.

 

Agreed. And as far as the lack of a lfg queue you young whippersnappers should have a go at FFXI sometime. Not only is there no lfg queue there weren't the myriad of chat options you're now spoiled with. The longest its taken me to find a group for anything has been about 15 minutes. If you can't find people to play with you're doing something wrong or you need to reroll on a higher pop server. If spamming the general chat channel isn't working do a search for people in your lvl range and start /telling them to see if they'd like to join you... this is an mmo afterall its meant to be social not have you sorted by an autoqueue. In fact I have mixed felings about that feature.... in WoW you were no longer your character... when you were in a dungeon you were refered to by your class. So instead of "hey Radu" it was "hey mage". Kinda takes the social skills out of it.

[Baeil]

I completely agree with you OP.

The content level to me is "OK". What I can't get around is how frustrating these bugs are.

Last night we tried SOA HM, and he just kept despawning at 9% or there would be wholes in the platforms or missing ledges in the jump phase.

 

I'm also looking forward to GW2. They say their end game is their game throughout. 80? levels. A huge world. Tons of open world events. WvWvW Pvp. And they're waiting and debugging and making sure the game is ready at release.

 

Swtor rushed their release, it probably was a sales call, but nothing hurts your sales worse then over 40%? of your recurring revenue disappearing 3 months after release.

 

 

I want to love your game Swtor T_T rescue ussssssss

[Napalmbrain]

Whoever thinks sandbox style isn't the future of MMOs is fooling themselves.

 

Theme parks alone are absolutely a dead end at this point. WAY too repetitive. I thought SWG was very innovative for what they attempted, and I felt it worked. Coupled with some theme park elements that game could have been the best.

 

The fact that Bioware didn't choose to take a risk and just went for the safe bet without a shred of originality, is being reflected on the feedback for this game and the reason this game will probably fade away very shortly, at least from the spotlight.

 

Sandbox style, player cities, player created content is the future of MMOs, if there is any future at all.

[DARKLORDMAXIMUS]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played "

 

I'm sorry, but this isn't Bioware's problem. I love Star Wars and video games. I've personally put hours/days/weeks of time into my 3 characters. However, I have yet to hit 50 on any of them. Someone who hits 50 in 5 days has got too much gametime on their hands. You can't rush through content, then complain you're out of game to play. Take some time off, take a break, get a job, go outside. I understand the frustration of short games. Short games are why I primarily use GameFly these days and buy only a couple games a year. This game, however, isn't short, and with the storylines and legacy system it's clear Bioware intends people to replay. Yet those people who have the time, patience and dedication to get to 50 in 5 days then turn around and complain they don't want to do it again? It's crazy.

 

actually that is a EPIC FAIL for bioware. because its crappy game design....

 

i would like you to log into a MMO like EVE ONLINE... and try to "max out" a toon in 5 days....

 

I have played eve for 7 Years and i have not maxed out all the skills in the game.. and you know what due to outstanding game design it is not possable to ever max out every skill in the game. because they take a long time to max each seperate skill and there are 100's of them.

 

you are just making excuses for Bioware because they didnt have the forsight to see that people with no jobs and are on EI or what ever can play 18 hours a day and max out in 5 days because they have been playing MMO's for 15 years.

 

P.S. i work full time and i dont have a level 50 yet. but then again i split my time between eve and swtor so i dont have a level 50 toon right now.

 

My GF who is in school and has more time off then i already has 1 toon at 50 one at 40 and 2 more at who knows what levels.. and she is already board because she knows once her other toons reach 50. there will be next to nothing to do because she does not like to PVP much. And space combat is single player and well is fun for the first time you do it and then is a waste of time.

Edited February 7, 2012 by DARKLORDMAXIMUS