Pvp philsophy and the lack of well-reasoned forum discussion

[Ahhmyface]

What is class balance? How is it quantified, and can it be logically explained?

 

This is a great topic. In my opinion, there is no quantifiable way to determine balance. It's too closely tied to skill, and coming with with a definition of skill is hard. There are perceptual skills, motor skills, "awareness" skills, attention skills, learning skills, memory skills, and probably off into infinity.

 

If 100 people are literally invincible with class A, but the rest of the world gets 1 shot, is the class overpowered or underpowered? Haha, too complicated for me...

[Aroidan]

Class balance needs to be done at equal skill and gear. Because of this you can throw skill and gear out the window when trying to balance a class. Instead you need to look at the strategies each class can employ against the other and the effective counters against that strategy from the other class and see which one is likely to win. If class A can beat Class B 80% of the time by doing progression A then either progression A is too strong or Class B lacks an effective counter to progression A. Balance can be achieved when Class A beats Class B 50% of the time roughly.

 

Also I am pretty sure they can figure out someway to effectively measure this for a game scenario if we can have TV shows like the Ultimate Warrior

 

As it stands now the big class imbalance seems to come from the healer/damage specs as well as the Elemental damage specs. Basically the healer DPS has too much utility and the elemental/force damage ignores almost all damage reduction methods. This makes Sorcs/Sages overpowered and Commandos and the equivelent OP when they spec heals and damage. Sorcs/Sages get the advantage of both things.

[Delavager]

This is a great topic. In my opinion, there is no quantifiable way to determine balance. It's too closely tied to skill, and coming with with a definition of skill is hard. There are perceptual skills, motor skills, "awareness" skills, attention skills, learning skills, memory skills, and probably off into infinity.

 

If 100 people are literally invincible with class A, but the rest of the world gets 1 shot, is the class overpowered or underpowered? Haha, too complicated for me...

 

Truth, and apparently you have to reply to something to rate the thread.

 

What a fail system for rating.

 

If you like this thread REPLY to it and RATE it at the bottom.

[CommandoPower]

I'm not sure why people have such a love affair with open world PvP. I understand it is fun to randomly engage out in the world when you were not expecting it. However, 99% of the time it turns into who can bring the most friends and just pure outnumber the other side. If anything, world pvp takes the least amount of skill because you can just zerg the other side. (see Ilum).

 

I like warzones because it pushes people to complete objectives that reward combat within a given time frame. Getting people in open world PvP to do anything together is like herding cats.

 

At the end of the day you have to enjoy PvP for the mere aspect of the competition. I enjoy it and the gear is just a bonus.

 

This is quite simply untrue for an organized (AND INFORMED) underdog force. In DAOC and in WAR both without having any class advantages we used intel and coordinated tactics to defeat up to 3x our numbers consistently.

 

Eventually this begs a massive zerg of worse than those numbers, but it does not change the fact that in reasonably balanced Large scale PVP that organization and intel is just as important as numbers or player skill.

 

Almost without exception the larger side is far less coordinated and populated with less skilled players as well due to the nature of PVP mentalities.

 

 

 

The only place this breaks down is when they have a central point they can defend that you HAVE to take next to accomplish anything. Then it becomes a game of timing, misdirection, and guile. But if they are stubborn and camp it with superior numbers no matter what your pretty hosed. This led to the prevalence of "alarm clock raids" to catch the enemy when their defenses were weakest and their numbers the thinnest .

 

 

I've herded cats, all you need is the support of a few good players and people form into a natural chain of command on their own more or less. But this is only true in games that cater to teamwork, skill, and coordination. Games like this simply fight that mentality and encourage ramboing with their mechanics and rewards.

 

Edit: Just wanted to mention that you have to keep your "troops" constantly informed and reigned in or their impatience gets the better of them. Morale is important too. Even small victories make people want to stay, better tactics that make 3/4 of your group not want to stick around are NOT advantageous in the long run.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CommandoPower

[CommandoPower]

Also, before it was closed this thread had a fair amount of not vitriolic responses.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=273989

[Bejita]

True pvp is pvp that is good

 

real pvpers are people that want to pvp not trade illum wins, trading illum wins is not pvp

 

your post proves nothing

[cashogy]

Why does one want to maximize their wins when you are rewarded far better for maximizing your medals?

 

good players can do both

[Delavager]

True pvp is pvp that is good

 

real pvpers are people that want to pvp not trade illum wins, trading illum wins is not pvp

 

your post proves nothing

 

Where is the definition for "True PvP" or "Real PvPers" that shows what you are claming?

 

Are you sure this isn't just your opinion?

 

Did the OPs post try and prove anything?

[CommandoPower]

Where is the definition for "True PvP" or "Real PvPers" that shows what you are claming?

 

Are you sure this isn't just your opinion?

 

Did the OPs post try and prove anything?

 

True PVP players are people who rely on skill to win and test their skill vs others. Because when artiifical advantages are imposed meaninglessly and unfairly distributed the nature of PVP, competition, becomes continually diluted until it is no longer competition but instead a game of whack a mole.

 

Player vs Player, the concept, insinuates two or more people facing off on different sides with each having a significant chance to win. Other play styles have been defined over the years as extreme offshoots of PVP, such as ganking, greifing, and zerging.

 

 

PVP is competition. Competition by nature requires competitiveness. It's why you have the word competitive lol. If your not competitive than there is no competition and therefore no PVP.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CommandoPower

[Zombifikation]

+1 to the Op.

 

Especially the point about constructive criticism over whining. I feel like a lot of valid points about PvP issues go unheard because the person making the post seem like some whiny trash and no one takes them seriously. The PvP community as a whole needs to get better at that, I think.

 

Also agree with the guy above me...valid point and a well constructed critique of PvP currently.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Zombifikation

[Delavager]

True PVP players are people who rely on skill to win and test their skill vs others. Because when artiifical advantages are imposed meaninglessly and unfairly distributed the nature of PVP, competition, becomes continually diluted until it is no longer competition but instead a game of whack a mole.

 

Player vs Player, the concept, insinuates two or more people facing off on different sides with each having a significant chance to win. Other play styles have been defined over the years as extreme offshoots of PVP, such as ganking, greifing, and zerging.

 

 

PVP is competition. Competition by nature requires competitiveness. It's why you have the word competitive lol. If your not competitive than there is no competition and therefore no PVP.

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than you are wrong lol.

 

The statement: "True PVP Players are people who rely on skill to win" is straight up wrong. That is your OPINION of what a true pvp player is.

 

You could say something like "I only respect players who combat each other where the only contributing factor to the outcome is skill." Which is fine and I would back you on that. But your above statement is purely wrong.

 

PvP is literally and only a person(s) vs. a person(s). Everything else is a FORM of PvP.

[Marqhill]

A lot of this speaks to the underlying psychology of a lot of gamers. If they find something to be difficult in game then clearly it's either A) their opponent is a cheeser or B) it's an underlying balance issue in game.

 

A lot of players don't like to admit that if they have difficulty with a particular thing then the problem isn't the game but the person playing it. I'm very new to MMO's in general which has given me a great perspective on the game and how it should be played. Any time that I get involved in a situation that I have difficulty with or can't handle I can't assume the game is broken because I don't know how things are "supposed to be."

 

The whole time I've been playing Star Wars I've been forced to take a L2P (learn to play!) approach to it because I've never actually played an MMO before. Now I'm certainly not saying that I haven't cried "BROKEN!" at all since the game has been out. I sure have. But when I calm down I have time to think about what it is that I may not be doing to counter the issues that I have at the time.

 

I see about half of the posts on this forum under the class discussions are "These are the buffs we need in the next patch or I quit!" kind of posts. It's pretty obnoxious.

[Jandor_Ziska]

Just wanted to chip in and thank the OP for this. I'm really enjoying Warzone PvP at the moment (I just hit 50 so that may change lol) but the PvP section of this forum is super terrible. What, 2 useful guides stickied?

 

And lol at all the posters persisting with the no true scotsman fallacy even after it was pointed out in the OP.

[Edex]

Anything that puts a player versus a player, whether it's a competition to brush your pony's hair better than your opponent, or who can rip out the other's eyes first... is still literally pvp. I am not the one playing word games, being literal is precisely the opposite of word games.

 

If you enjoy open-pvp, go ahead, but don't call it "real pvp". And micromanaging is still pvp, sorry. Your open pvp still might be fit into other groupings, like 'level-specific-gear-based-random-encounter-no-aim-targetbased-pvp', and it becomes obvious quickly that there are many many types of pvp.

 

The reason it is considered real pvp is there is no artificial buffing by the system. To say artificial buffing still counts as pvp is like you claiming credit for the game winning touchdown just because you are a fan and they are 'your' team.

[Edex]

As for the whole issue of competitive and fair i think people should keep this in mind. In any professional sport or COMPETITION there are rules. There are rules for a reason, to keep the playing field as even as possible. To wave aside such things as anything goes is a weak argument at best. It is not competitive to hack/exploit/abuse obvious holes in any system. Otherwise football players would be using cars to run the ball in for a touchdown, golfers would pick up the ball and put it in the hole by hand, etc.

[Talkative]

By OP's definition Operations are PvP.

 

Also, no true Scotsman would use No True Scotsman, making it post-ex paradox.

 

Since all our opinions are equally valid.

[Ethurian]

OPINION

 

Which is, surprisingly, your opinion.

 

 

---

 

Regardless, as to the original post the problem is self entitlement, defeatism, immaturity and a wealth of other ego driven attitudes. No one ever accepts fault, no one ever strives to understand fundamentally why C outcome was created from A+B. Instead you see an incessant whining, a constant droning of misinformation from people unwilling to accept anything but their own opinion, their own "cold hard" facts.

 

It's like George Carlin's bit:

"Do you believe in God?" "No?" -Boom Dead!-

"Do you believe in God?" "Yes." "/MY/ God?" "No?" -Boom Dead!-

 

It brings me almost a sick enjoyment seeing some of the same names spouting the same speeches from thread to thread. Especially when they're opinions, filled with bias and anger, are wrong or exaggerated beyond the truth. The same people who think every plot of grass is greener than theirs.

[Daraco]

 

2. .... Athletes train to be physically superior before the contest ever begins, white always moves first in chess, and if you've ever played the card-game a-hole/scum, the "president" gets bonus cards for being president and starts first. .....

 

Best argument for the inclusion of the Expertise stat I've seen in the forums and I am a firm believer that it needs to be removed.

 

Point.....

Pro Athletes spend ALL their time living their sport and there for should had the psychical advantage over anyone who gets out of bed one morning wanting to Play

 

Who would win a team of pro Athletes or your local High School team?

 

BUT....

 

Why would anyone pit a High School Team against a Pro Team when the outcome is so outrageously one sided?

 

Conclusion....

 

Match High School Team against other high school Teams and Pro Teams with other Pro Teams

 

Translation....

 

Make Expertise Brackets, Match people with X amount of Expertise with others with the comparable amounts.

 

Example....

 

1-5% VS 1-5%

&

6-10% VS6-10%

&

10%+

 

I know the PvP population AS IT IS NOW would never be able to support a system like this but the implementation of cross serve ques would help.

 

In all a good argument, Kudos!

[Zunayson]

I didn't see a point based on the gear vs skill debate. Make one pl0x? I want to see what you say a majority think about how they think they are entitled to better gear for playing longer.

[Jandor_Ziska]

If you're going to use professional-sports-as-a-metaphor-for-SWTOR-PvP, at least compare say, the NFL or the Australian Football League (salary-capped with losing teams getting draft concessions) with say, the English Premier League (no sal cap, winner gets bigger, losers get relegated).

 

Me? I prefer the NFL/AFL approach. But then I go for Swansea City, so I would, wouldn't I?

[CommandoPower]

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than you are wrong lol.

 

The statement: "True PVP Players are people who rely on skill to win" is straight up wrong. That is your OPINION of what a true pvp player is.

 

You could say something like "I only respect players who combat each other where the only contributing factor to the outcome is skill." Which is fine and I would back you on that. But your above statement is purely wrong.

 

PvP is literally and only a person(s) vs. a person(s). Everything else is a FORM of PvP.

 

PVP is competition, that's not opinion. The very nature of competition begs both parties be reasonably competitive or there is, quite literally, no competition.

 

Otherwise Mike Tyson vs Stephen Hawking in a boxing match could be considered competition/PVP lol.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CommandoPower

[Delavager]

PVP is competition, that's not opinion. The very nature of competition begs both parties be reasonably competitive or there is, quite literally, no competition.

 

Otherwise Mike Tyson vs Stephen Hawking in a boxing match could be considered competition/PVP lol.

 

PvP is not competition, they are not synonymous. Competition is PvP, but PvP is not competition. Just like a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square.

 

Additionally, Mike Tyson vs. Stephen Hawking in a boxing match IS competition. Competition just means you are "competing" against someone else. Competition does not imply fairness, which you are inferring.

[Zunayson]

Best argument for the inclusion of the Expertise stat I've seen in the forums and I am a firm believer that it needs to be removed.

 

Point.....

Pro Athletes spend ALL their time living their sport and there for should had the psychical advantage over anyone who gets out of bed one morning wanting to Play

 

Who would win a team of pro Athletes or your local High School team?

 

BUT....

 

Why would anyone pit a High School Team against a Pro Team when the outcome is so outrageously one sided?

 

Conclusion....

 

Match High School Team against other high school Teams and Pro Teams with other Pro Teams

 

Translation....

 

Make Expertise Brackets, Match people with X amount of Expertise with others with the comparable amounts.

 

Example....

 

1-5% VS 1-5%

&

6-10% VS6-10%

&

10%+

 

I know the PvP population AS IT IS NOW would never be able to support a system like this but the implementation of cross serve ques would help.

 

In all a good argument, Kudos!

 

The difference is that athletics and sports test your athletic ability. Therefore having an advantage based over athletics isn't an advantage nor is it unfair. It's called being better. It's more accurate for me to say its like me spending time playing the game and getting skillful and good then owning you because I'm better. This is because the test in running is to see who's faster. Not who can afford better running shoes to give him an edge that any person - even a slow runner - can get. In this way, expertise and gear give a baddie an advantage to where skill becomes nearly obsolete. So sports is to see who's faster - its okay to train up to get fast. Following this pattern, PVP is about x, so it's okay to train up x, given x is the same variable. Sense everyone's telling me to train up gear, does that mean PvP in this game is to see how many people nolife there way into BM faster? Okay, forget, that, but whoever can where more clothes? Get a better helmet? What happened to the skill? Running's about skill, but this PvP isn't? I want a response. Because no response to what is in my opinion a good argument just means nobody can think of a rebuttal. If you feel that my argument is so obviously stupid for reasons you assume everyone knows that people ignore me, please, enlighten me.

 

EDIT: Didn't read your whole post, got so happy about being able to flame someone. But really. This is good. Expertise bracket!!!

Edited February 7, 2012 by Zunayson

[glenbruton]

What I find funny is if PvP should be like X or Y, why isnt that person playing a game with PvP like X or Y?

[Kolbenito]

6. A lot of good posts are drowned in barely literate trollsludge. What can we, as a community, do to bring the truth to the spotlight?

 

Most QQ does have a hint of truth to it. Why do we need a long winded thread to rehash the problems the community at large already knows about, most of which have been around since closed beta?