chamberlord Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) (With the exception of the Jedi Sentinel who should have equivalent dps with equal gear.) Argument: Smuggler - Gunslinger should have unquestionably the most brutal heavy hitting sustainable damage. It should only be natural to see the Gunslinger at the top of the DPS charts, especially in a group of equally geared classes. It is absurd to have any class with equal gear to have the ability to out dps a Gunslinger. Reasoning: 1 - No versatility You have one choice and one choice only after you choose a GS as your main class. This choice is to DPS. If you get tired of DPSing and you want to change your spec you can choose between 2 other DPS trees. No healing. No tanking. No Utility. Just DPSing. 2 - Low to no mobility Many of the GS most important skills require the slinger to be in-cover. This means no movement. If you get knocked out of cover you must get back into cover to continue being an affective class. One GS tree, the Sharpshooter, requires that the GS stay in cover permanently. This adds an extra level of difficulty to both raid and pvp situations. 3 - Low HP Low Armor Take any class on the battle field, if your goal is to kill the one that will drop the quickest. A gunslinger would be your first choice. We have some of the lowest HP and Armor class out of any class. 4 - No CC Kick, and Flash grenades are stuns. The effect is to minimal to ever be considered CC, so don't even attempt to argue that it is. 5 - Low Utility No ability to move quickly in PVP. No force speed, no force jump. No invis. No escape. Conclusion: Gunslingers rely only on their ability to DPS. They don't take damage well. They don't heal. They pull out their pistols and rain down heavy/brutal damage on their targets. I do not feel that Gunslingers have bad DPS. However, I feel it is absurd that classes with much higher versatility and survivability are able to out DPS a Gunslinger. There should be no question as to who would do more DPS when putting up any class against a GSer (with the exception of a Jedi Sentinel). If it requires the Devs to nerf other class's or buffs the gunslinger until this outcome is achieved. That would be appropriate. Edited February 6, 2012 by chamberlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DervimNorth Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You obviously haven't played merc/commando... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlord Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) You obviously haven't played merc/commando... Commando: Mobility (not stuck in cover to be affective), Wears Heavy Armor has more survivability. flexibility, ability to switch from DPS trees to a healing tree. Merc: basically the flip side of the commando coin..... Sith side. No other class has the inflexibility besides the Sentinel (and the sniper, if we are being picky. Which apparently we are). Edited February 6, 2012 by chamberlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerdoc Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 No other class has the inflexibility besides the Sentinel (and the sniper, if we are being picky. Which apparently we are). Difference is, sentinel will introduce you to the world of pain as soon as he jumps you, we will be easily shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dajame Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Commando: Mobility (not stuck in cover to be affective), Wears Heavy Armor has more survivability. flexibility, ability to switch from DPS trees to a healing tree. Merc: basically the flip side of the commando coin..... Sith side. No other class has the inflexibility besides the Sentinel (and the sniper, if we are being picky. Which apparently we are). Commando's arguably have less mobility than Gunslingers.... You can reposition yourself and move cover... as a Commando you just literally sit in one spot mashing 1.5second cast abilities and channeled Full Auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormanthor Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Commando's arguably have less mobility than Gunslingers.... You can reposition yourself and move cover... as a Commando you just literally sit in one spot mashing 1.5second cast abilities and channeled Full Auto. Your joking right? I have a commando and a gunslinger is way more stationary. I would like to see the gunslinger range increased by 5 more meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xing Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 This isn't how MMO DPS is balanced at all. Regardless of your reasoning, there will always be an ebb and flow of which classes do the most DPS throughout the game's lifespan. All of which is moot until there's a way to even measure DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formulka Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Commando's arguably have less mobility than Gunslingers.... You can reposition yourself and move cover... as a Commando you just literally sit in one spot mashing 1.5second cast abilities and channeled Full Auto. thats BS and on top of that all you have to do is go around the corner and heal up, even if its slow, its something we cant do even if we had a year to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ukita Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Commando's arguably have less mobility than Gunslingers.... You can reposition yourself and move cover... as a Commando you just literally sit in one spot mashing 1.5second cast abilities and channeled Full Auto. The point he's making is you can stop on a dime and start casting. We have to deal with a global cooldown on our cover, which is about 1.5 seconds, then start casting our 1.5 second non-channeled abilities. The only exception here would be Sharpshooter tree, which will allow you to fire off the first charge burst the instant you get into cover. When a commando gets stunned and rooted by charge or zealous leap, they can fight back. When a gunslinger gets stunned and rooted by a charge or a zealous leap, we can auto attack and hope that when we get behind cover again we won't be dead. Commando can easily fire the person away, gunslinger has to be behind cover to pulse people back. Sharpshooter is the most heavy hitting of the trees, and has the least amount of mobility. Saboteur has a lot more survivability but puts out less damage than the other two trees. Dirty Fighting has a lot of kiting ability, but lacks the burst and survivability to be really viable against any other class. There are a lot of issues with how little damage gunslinger can do compared to other classes who have more mobility and survivability. That's the brunt of the problems with the class. Edited February 7, 2012 by Ukita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkPudding Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Commando can easily fire the person away, gunslinger has to be behind cover to pulse people back. There are a lot of issues with how little damage gunslinger can do compared to other classes who have more mobility and survivability. That's the brunt of the problems with the class. QFT. As much as I love my sab GS (it's the only reason that I'm still playing this game), having a commando alt really helps me in seeing the problem in this class. We are SUPPOSED to be the class that hits the hardest because we've compromised everything else, but sadly, we don't. Edited February 7, 2012 by MilkPudding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffylover Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No argument about the gunslinger. Simple solution... Cover is horribly broken.... Either remove it or make its damage reduction much larger and have It count towards melee too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meetstick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 This isn't how MMO DPS is balanced at all. Regardless of your reasoning, there will always be an ebb and flow of which classes do the most DPS throughout the game's lifespan. All of which is moot until there's a way to even measure DPS. This IS the way MMOs CLAIM to be balanced. Pure DPS classes should out-DPS hybrids. To be balanced any other way is to risk being slightly outgunned by them with a new gear/spec change and wind up being shut out of raids completely. Who's going to bring a sub-par DPS who can't even off-heal or off-tank (or, in our case, who can't even CC or provide a unique buff that a sawbones can't also provide). Seeing them actually balanced this way in practice, that is another story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comieb Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Someone suggested increasing our range another 5m - would make us around 35 - 40m instead of 30 - 35m While i think its along the right track to go i also think that 40m is starting to get into the realms of crazy ranges. In all honesty i would say reduce others range my 5m, not sure if i would include a Trooper in that reduction but i would most definitely make the force users suffer. One thing tho as were all Smugglers (Scoundrels and GS) Same thought to the IA mirrors, Why not give GS side of things a temporary stealth like Hunters got, instead of an infinite stealth how about one on a 20sec duration. allow us to position ourselves etc. Or hells share the sawbones tree. But yes i agree if were not utility we should be the best at what we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turn-XGundam Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 our attack can be absorbed/dodged and have to go through armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravzar Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 How to fix Gunslingers: 1. Fix the bug that makes instant charged burst not work if you cover then recover again shortly after 2. Make the armour debuff 50% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratatooey Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Commando: Mobility (not stuck in cover to be affective), Wears Heavy Armor has more survivability. flexibility, ability to switch from DPS trees to a healing tree. Merc: basically the flip side of the commando coin..... Sith side. No other class has the inflexibility besides the Sentinel (and the sniper, if we are being picky. Which apparently we are). We're not inflexible; we're not stuck in cover. Pure sharpshooter builds are, but there are other builds that are very flexible and have higher DPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VelnikSP Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have found my gunslinger to be FAR more surviveable than my commando. cover not only has a large damage reduction, but if you play smart, you get a huge number of 'cover' messages during a firefight that massively improves the 'real damage' that you don't take. You do know that you get cover messages even if you take cover behind 'unofficial' sources also, right? meaning items that do not produce a green sillhouette? admittedly gunslinger has a more fickle defense mechanic, and no healing to speak of, but as far as sheer surviveability is concerned, commandos and JK's simply seem to more often be in the 'I hope I kill this before it kills me' zone than I am. Then again, I have no problem with kicking a foe in the jimmies and running over to a better log to hide behind. In fact, it's a fun playstyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathblood Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I haven't leveled a sage so I can't speak for them, but I've done a fair bit of pvping on both my gs and my commando (dps) and gunslingers seriously have nothing to complain about in terms of survivability. Sure, cover locks you into place, but the benefit of being unchargable and un-yank-able for a ranged class is HUGE and once a melee manages to get to you, you've got more ways of dealing with it than a commando. If its seriously a problem, spec into Dampeners for goodness sake. For 1 GCD that you can even do while out of combat, you get -30% damage taken on your next 3 attacks. That's almost OP if you use it a lot, and its really not all that difficult to use while fighting, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzllanna Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) 4 - No CC Kick, and Flash grenades are stuns. The effect is to minimal to ever be considered CC, so don't even attempt to argue that it is. We also have leg shot a root I use all the time. So we have 3 ccs. I use all of the for pve and pvp and find them pretty effective in all honesty. Also slice droid there are plenty of times for that in pve so that gives us 4 Edited February 7, 2012 by jazzllanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlord Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yes, hunker down helps dramatically. However, I feel hunker down should be changed to a passive ability.... I mean obviously if you are undercover you are already hunkered down. But, the real argument here is that obviously gunslingers are PURE dps. light weight, low hit point, sacrifices everything else to increase DPS. All we are arguing here is what anyone would agree with....... PURE DPS classes should unquestionably be better DPS than non PURE dps classes (equally geared). If you have the option to heal or tank on top of dpsing, that makes you a hybrid. You can try to argue with this point if you like. But, does it really make since to have classes that can be amazing tanks and healers also be the best DPS? Slingers/Snipers/Sentinels/Marauder are the only pure dps. These classes should be fighting for top dps and their dps should be comparable. Never should hybrids be included in that competition, that would be absurd. Sorry Troopers, we would all love to be OP. But, you cant have it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatermitts Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Then again, I have no problem with kicking a foe in the jimmies and running over to a better log to hide behind. In fact, it's a fun playstyle Absolutely. I recognize that there are problems, but I think once you adapt to the play-style it's hard for others to deal with. In PvP I tend to do pretty well against most classes using the "sub par cc" to keep them at bay while I run a high damage rotation on them. What we lack in mobility we make up for in burst damage. It may not be sustainable dps, but it's not terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cratzky Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I agree on most parts, but one thing that bioware really should do is to give us Hunker Down as Passive ability and reduce its duration to 10seconds instead of 20. That would encourage more movement for a GS since they have to reposition themself with cover to gain this Hunker Down buff again. It makes absolutely no sense that we have to use an cooldown like that , when we're already hunkered down... BW, please do this. Edited February 7, 2012 by Cratzky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariahMessiah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'd settle for Hunker down actually WORKING as it reads(on boss mechanics it does not work. Its a PVP skill for a class that does not do PVP well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternWind Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 My biggest issue is not being able to get back into cover once I've been rooted in place, that is where the majority of my deaths take place, from being chain charged and locked down that way. I'm kinda iffy as far as damage output goes, It's fairly good,but sometimes it's meh. maybe a base increase on armor penetration from 25% to 35-40% should be good. Hunker down is fine as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigjit Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) My biggest issue is not being able to get back into cover once I've been rooted in place, that is where the majority of my deaths take place, from being chain charged and locked down that way. I'm kinda iffy as far as damage output goes, It's fairly good,but sometimes it's meh. maybe a base increase on armor penetration from 25% to 35-40% should be good. Hunker down is fine as is. This I play against mostly sorc teams on my server and since they have found out that I cant cover when rooted the first thing they do when they see me is toss a root at me. Keeps me in los and makes it so my casts of wounding shots can be interupted. Nothing more frustrating then trying to duel a sorc only to have everything interupted or be kept from getting into stun immune. Then as soon as you get hunkerdown up they sprint go los and wait for cd's to come up or just heal any dmg you might have done while there dot does more dmg then my 2 dirty fighting dots do together. Edit: Also why the hell is my wounding shot costing me 30 energy. I really want to know who came up with that number its insane. Fire it even at full energy and I immediately go into lower energy regen god forbidding I had fired anything before shooting it off. Edited February 8, 2012 by Twigjit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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