Colow_Leper Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Because, as I said, I don't want it to be a precedent - I saw it in WoW. As I said in an earlier post, my paladin became pretty much unplayable because the moaning of the PvP players made Bliz nerf it to the point that the class was rubbish in PvE - even though I, personally, hadn't done any PvP! I just do not believe that you can balance PvP and PvE at the same time - there has to be some sort of disassociation between them, and my belief is bourne out by the marked failure of any other game to properly manage it. And what is the problem with a certain class out damaging others in PvE? My WoW mage did extraordinary amounts of damage - my rogue did huge burst damage (mind you - if the target didn't die just at that point, it was "vanish" time!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jomps Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 They were saying we did too much burst damage during a PvP fight causing the encounter to end too soon for their intentions. If you're going to say "They said we were nerfed because of...." at least get it right. We have enough people muddying up the waters and over exaggerating the situation as it is. the interview I listened they said operatives were doing too much damage than intented at the first place and this cause players to kill other too fast in pvp. They gave a impression that operative damage was off the scale at the first place. But as said this might have been a pr stunt . /official_request_for_combat_logs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimra Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Nice analogies, real cute. but you still haven't proven to me or anyone that operative's PvE damage is worse off than anyone else's. SURE it's probably lower then it was before, but why should you be doing more damage then other classes in PvE? also the fact you don't even play the class, you are just whining for the sake of it really puts the cherry on top. I'm really not going to get into a 'debate' with you because of your obnoxious attitude. But I will say through my experience of playing several of the DPS classes the Op seems the inferior. Obviously there is no combat log so it can't be proved, so for now personal experience is all we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagerinho Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'm really not going to get into a 'debate' with you because of your obnoxious attitude. But I will say through my experience of playing several of the DPS classes the Op seems the inferior. Obviously there is no combat log so it can't be proved, so for now personal experience is all we have. I would rather listen to someone who has the tools to monitor damage, and at the moment that is none of you. You say personal experience, I see hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) I would rather listen to someone who has the tools to monitor damage, and at the moment that is none of you. You say personal experience, I see hearsay. I say my Commando is needed on NM EV, because my Scoundrel does nowhere close to the damage of the Commando and makes the NM runs an actual added risk. You want numbers, I can see these numbers appear all over my screen during raids, and the Commando gets more numbers, and they are much higher. It's simple enough for me. I don't need a combat log to see what is good and what is bad. Edited February 11, 2012 by Tokosteef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jomps Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I say my Commando is needed on NM EV, because my Scoundrel does nowhere close to the damage of the Commando and makes the NM runs an actual added risk. You want numbers, I can see these numbers appear all over my screen during raids, and the Commando gets more numbers, and they are much higher. It's simple enough for me. I don't need a combat log to see what is good and what is bad. And yet on my server there is LETHALITY build operative that tops the chart on WZ that he participates into. Even merc and sorcs are below him. And sithwarrior theory crafting section actualy suggests using lethality for raiding because of better sustained damage. And every one knows keeping up with all the dot damage on target is hard. Operative do big hits but also target should have heavy dot all the time. Rotation tho is a bit complex compared to other games I have played.. bad operative can easily get dps drain due this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselCheezel Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I unsubbed because of that nerf. It proved to me that the devs have no idea how to manage a live game and are determined to repeat blizzards mistakes instead of learning from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) And yet on my server there is LETHALITY build operative that tops the chart on WZ that he participates into. Even merc and sorcs are below him. And sithwarrior theory crafting section actualy suggests using lethality for raiding because of better sustained damage. And every one knows keeping up with all the dot damage on target is hard. Operative do big hits but also target should have heavy dot all the time. Rotation tho is a bit complex compared to other games I have played.. bad operative can easily get dps drain due this. The Lethality build is a gunslinger build, completely broken for Operatives. There is absolutely no reason to take an Operative over a Sniper in PvE. Edited February 12, 2012 by Tokosteef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrian Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 bump for great justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinobiflip Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It's sad that no one cares about Operatives, especially the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jomps Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The Lethality build is a gunslinger build, completely broken for Operatives. There is absolutely no reason to take an Operative over a Sniper in PvE. ok, do you have any base for your argument? I'm not sure wheter it is broken or not, but would like know why it is broken in your oipinion. And what comes to deep lethality builds what matters the msot what does the advanced class on it's talent tree. I know operative has some usefull abiliities/talents for deep lethality. + lets not forget combat res cc and so on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) ok, do you have any base for your argument? I'm not sure wheter it is broken or not, but would like know why it is broken in your oipinion. And what comes to deep lethality builds what matters the msot what does the advanced class on it's talent tree. I know operative has some usefull abiliities/talents for deep lethality. + lets not forget combat res cc and so on Overview of why Lethality is less DPS then POST-NERF Concealment (courtesy of sithwarrior.com) It's also important to note this tree suits Snipers a lot better, because it forces the Scoundrel into melee range for TA. For Gunslingers who stand at a distance, it's fine. However, the entire tree for is clunky, impractical, and slow damage for Scoundrels. It needs a rework, but then again, so does the entire class. The only raid fight where Lethality > Concealment is the EV Council, since Concealment cannot use stuns/backstab. Edited February 13, 2012 by Tokosteef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamrolled Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Prove to me your PvE damage is worse then anyone else's. I play both a 50 BM merc and a 50 BM operative. I see the numbers every single WZ/ EV run. You probably don't play an operative, you got nothing to compare to, you're just trolling. You have no idea how the class even works. Get your facts straight or stop trolling. I can also say that the time it took for op`s to get nerfed after the adren/stim fix was not enough time for anyone to test performance. Even with some super-nonexistant internal BW test team. There are several layers of retardation and we are only scratching the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covalent Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I play both a 50 BM merc and a 50 BM operative. I see the numbers every single WZ/ EV run. You probably don't play an operative, you got nothing to compare to, you're just trolling. You have no idea how the class even works. Get your facts straight or stop trolling. I can also say that the time it took for op`s to get nerfed after the adren/stim fix was not enough time for anyone to test performance. Even with some super-nonexistant internal BW test team. There are several layers of retardation and we are only scratching the surface. Right now this has zero informational value in it. You might feel strongly that your visual interpretation of dps is sufficient evidence but for anyone else it is not nor should it be. Too many variables including gear and rotations not to mention your ability to really understand the numbers you see. There is simply no way for me or anyone to verify that your personal feel for the damage is correct. Therefore unless you can bring real numbers to the table there is nothing to see here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoLager Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Overview of why Lethality is less DPS then POST-NERF Concealment (courtesy of sithwarrior.com) It's also important to note this tree suits Snipers a lot better, because it forces the Scoundrel into melee range for TA. For Gunslingers who stand at a distance, it's fine. However, the entire tree for is clunky, impractical, and slow damage for Scoundrels. It needs a rework, but then again, so does the entire class. The only raid fight where Lethality > Concealment is the EV Council, since Concealment cannot use stuns/backstab. In that analysis, they never use overload shot for concealment either. For better dps, you actually have to weave in overload shot when your energy is high. #1 fix for concealment dps is to lower overload shot to 9-12 energy cost. No reason why something that hits less than shiv and doesn't give any TA should cost more energy. Edited February 13, 2012 by GeoLager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irusan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I play both a 50 BM merc and a 50 BM operative. I see the numbers every single WZ/ EV run. You probably don't play an operative, you got nothing to compare to, you're just trolling. You have no idea how the class even works. Get your facts straight or stop trolling. I can also say that the time it took for op`s to get nerfed after the adren/stim fix was not enough time for anyone to test performance. Even with some super-nonexistant internal BW test team. There are several layers of retardation and we are only scratching the surface. +1 Could not agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 +1 Could not agree more. back to page one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deverin Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Bump back up to the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightglade Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 There's a Champion mob on Ilum near the crates needed for a (broken) daily to the north of the main Imp base. I've seen people "claim" to test their individual dps on this singular mob. World Boss on Nar Shaddaa. Their is a HUGE mini boss on Voss that people can use. Be aware, the boss has two different high damage DoTs. One is fire, the other is a bad smell aura, no, Im not joking. So you would need a healer. Lastly, if you have a healer, a tank and ton of free time, use Lord Raxxus in the Belsavis daily. This would let you reset the instance repeatedly, as needed. You need to die out/vanish to reset the fight however. You would need something that last several minutes. Nar Shaddaa would probably be the best open area option but Lord Raxxus might be a slightly better option since you can reset it so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skurkanas Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I do wonder; with the 2nd big PvE nerf in 2 weeks, do we need a new thread or something? Then again, they probably don't realize how hard the surge nerf hit us. Much like they never realized that both accuracy and alacricity are pointless stats for Operatives. I'd love to meet the guy in charge of Itemisation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) A DEVELOPER HAS FINALLY RESPONDED TO A POST IN THE OPERATIVE FORUM! ..Too bad it was about a post discussing someones level 16 operative damage. Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. Seriously Georg? I don't want to hate, but 2 weeks of silence and THIS is what you decide to respond to? COME ON! Edited February 15, 2012 by Tokosteef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kognos Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 They have essentially shown that the problem with op/sm wasn't armor pen and the opener, it was surge scaling too well and buff stacking. With such high crit rates op/sm benefited from it the most. Have they undone their knee jerk reaction to the whining? Nope. Just another day in another piece of EA vaporware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skurkanas Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) They have essentially shown that the problem with op/sm wasn't armor pen and the opener, it was surge scaling too well and buff stacking. With such high crit rates op/sm benefited from it the most. Have they undone their knee jerk reaction to the whining? Nope. Just another day in another piece of EA vaporware. They realized that buffstacking, high base dmg values and high surge combined allowed some of us to kill people too fast. So they nerfed all of them. Better be on the safe side:rolleyes: Edited February 15, 2012 by Skurkanas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamrolled Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 A DEVELOPER HAS FINALLY RESPONDED TO A POST IN THE OPERATIVE FORUM! ..Too bad it was about a post discussing someones level 16 operative damage. Seriously Georg? I don't want to hate, but 2 weeks of silence and THIS is what you decide to respond to? COME ON! Hahaha! Wow! That`s INSANE. Really! *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwebs Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I like how they boast "we listen to the community." PvE sucks for this class. Thanks PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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