Kelticfury Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Maybe I'll give Jedi another shot. I was so turned off by the portrayal of Jedi that after I finished the starter planet I just threw my arms up and said screw this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctified Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) They're not saints. Not by a long shot. They have their foibles, their issues, their hangups. They just strive to be better. Not letting their emotions control them, like they do for the sith. Being calm in the face of danger, rather than screaming and raging or panicking, for instance. George Lucas turned them into Saints. Too noble for the world, too trusting, too pure. Awww, they got betrayed by their troops in the movies. Awww, thousands of years earlier, they got 'deceived' by the Sith and had their temple destroyed. Why do the good always die so young?* Nobody "took away" their emotions. There are plenty of jedi who show quite a bit of emotion, even in the cinematics and on Tython. Just look around. They're an order of "peaceful warriors", in that they strive to avoid conflict rather than escalate it. But if it comes down to a fight, they're prepared for it, and can throw down with the best of them. George Lucas took away their emotions by turning them into robotic monks with wooden dialogue. Compare and contrast a Jedi Knight from the prequel series the model of which TOR uses, with: Anyone else from anything else. No one talks like a Jedi. No one.** It's not enough that they have some of the worse dialogue in film history, and a few reeeeally cheesy ones in this game, it's the deadly seriousness with which it is delivered that well-earns the ridicule hoisted on it. You keep repeating over and over that they're emotionless. It's just not true. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Ah, you're misreading my use of the word. I'm critiquing their presentation. I'm not saying that they are incapable of feeling emotion. I'm saying that they are presented as boring, sanctimonious, dweebs, with the emotional range of a MR. Potato-Head. This view is so in-grained that when one sees someone trying 'not' to behave in this pattern, the instinctive reaction is to tell them they're doing it wrong. That's what they are. If them having an ideal somehow "irritates the hell out of you", I don't know what to tell you, other than to say you may not have grown up much, though you've gotten older. Get the hell off my lawn. * Which doesn't even begin to cover how silly it is that they can see into the future, but never accurately enough to prevent themselves from getting culled when the script calls for it. **Seriously, were David Hayter and Nolan North required to consume a half-dozen Xanax tablets apiece to prepare for their roles? Dead, monotonous, presentation. Very nice. Very Jedi. Edited February 7, 2012 by sanctified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyriaFrost Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 George Lucas turned them into Saints. Too noble for the world, too trusting, too pure. Awww, they got betrayed by their troops in the movies. Awww, thousands of years earlier, they got 'deceived' by the Sith and had their temple destroyed. Why do the good always die so young? George Lucas took away their emotions by turning them into robotic monks with wooden dialogue. Compare and contrast a Jedi Knight from the prequel series the model of which TOR uses, with: Anyone else from anything else. No one talks like a Jedi. No one. It's not enough that they have some of the worse dialogue in film history, and a few reeeeally cheesy ones in this game, it's the deadly seriousness with which it is delivered that well-earns the ridicule hoisted on it. Well, that's because George Lucas thinks he's a lot better than he is. He's allowed all the people praising him to go to his head, so he wrote that horrible barf-fest that was the prequels. Honestly, I just ignore those. And yes, they had some REEEALLLY bad dialogue. I watched the first one, and it was cringe-worthy. My friends had to actually drag me to see the second one, and I couldn't stand it. I refused to go see the third one. Ah, you're misreading my use of the word. I'm critiquing their presentation. I'm not saying that they are incapable of feeling emotion. I'm saying that they are presented as boring, sanctimonious, dweebs, with the emotional range of a MR. Potato-Head. This view is so in-grained that when one sees someone trying 'not' to behave in this pattern, the instinctive reaction is to tell them they're doing it wrong. In the context of TOR, I don't see them behaving that way. I see them as having an ideal that they strive for, and put up on a pedestal, but none of them have actually achieved it. Most of the jedi NPCs I've seen definitely have emotions. They're just not OVERLY-emotional, which follows the whole concept of their goals that they're trying to achieve. If you have to fight, fight, but don't do it out of anger. There are a few things I'd like to see them tweak a bit (like having the 'spy on your fellow padawans' quest touched up a bit, to have them go into it a bit more, such as saying that attachments can LEAD to over-reacting due to emotion, but attachments in and of themselves aren't 'wrong' or 'dark side', etc). Of course, the girl in that relationship was pretty much in free-fall, judging by her responses... Get the hell off my lawn. Chomper, sic balls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Sorry but the Jedi wanna bees are trying to re write the Jedi code... THEY DO BELIEVE THERE IS NO EMOTION.. Truly there isnt. Where does emotion exist? In your mind... What is in your head really exist? No you can make anything in your head but it doesn't really exist, nor does passion or that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelticfury Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Sorry but the Jedi wanna bees are trying to re write the Jedi code... THEY DO BELIEVE THERE IS NO EMOTION.. Truly there isnt. Where does emotion exist? In your mind... What is in your head really exist? No you can make anything in your head but it doesn't really exist, nor does passion or that matter. You are a lie, there is only Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midasear Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Sorry but the Jedi wanna bees are trying to re write the Jedi code... THEY DO BELIEVE THERE IS NO EMOTION.. Do Jedi also believe there is no such thing as ignorance, passion, chaos or death? Don't be daft. The Jedi Code is aspirational, not a map of cosmic reality. As a practical matter, if one was trying to come up with a way of dealing with a number of people who had the power to fry people with lightning bolts, crush windpipes with their minds, and dominate the minds & emotions of those without "the power", convincing them to follow the Jedi Code or something very much like it would probably seem necessary. The alternative looks like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29 The Sith Emperor is just Bill Mummy all grown up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonkaBix Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I totally agree. I trialed the game as a Sith Inquisitor on my partner's profile and then when I created my own I thought I would try the Jedi Consular. I didn't even get to the Jedi Temple in the Prologue before I wanted to punch my character in the face for choosing to be a part of the crazy order. The Code is boring and unrelatable and I would have never chosen to join it if it was actually me. I was so disappointed that I deleted my Jedi character and started as a Sith again. Felt so much better once I could pick the speech options I actually would pick if I really was a Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudim Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I totally agree. I trialed the game as a Sith Inquisitor on my partner's profile and then when I created my own I thought I would try the Jedi Consular. I didn't even get to the Jedi Temple in the Prologue before I wanted to punch my character in the face for choosing to be a part of the crazy order. The Code is boring and unrelatable and I would have never chosen to join it if it was actually me. I was so disappointed that I deleted my Jedi character and started as a Sith again. Felt so much better once I could pick the speech options I actually would pick if I really was a Sith. You are a bad roleplayer =P I have one character of each and they all have their own personalities, not mine, a by-the-book "Lawful Evil" female sith assassin, servant of the empire and the sith code a insane male marauder that'll destroy everything he encounters a reckless female jedi guardian, good-hearted but doesn't think on the consequences and my main is the rightful follower of the jedi code male jedi sage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suaine Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Why play a Jedi? I find their philosophy fascinating and enjoy the struggle an individual has to go through to try and reach that goal of total serenity. I like the idea of personal sacrifice and service for the greater good and that obviously as human beings some of them fail despite their best intentions. The conflict that comes from being human/humanoid and thus full of emotion and trying to learn and master that to become something else, that's interesting to me. Personal struggle and growth and also failure. Internal battles that can never be truly won. It's not something I would choose for myself, as I am as hedonistic and indulgent as the next person, but I like to see that story play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonkaBix Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You are a bad roleplayer =P I don't see how what I said makes me a bad roleplayer. I need to be able to relate to my character to enjoy the game otherwise I might as well just be watching a bad movie. If I can't understand my characters decisions how can they Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfumblez Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Besides the whole childhood dream of being a Jedi? I like the whole struggle of trying to contain your emotions, to not let them control your destiny. The Jedi path is one of inner serenity, and I think that's what most people lack these days. Would I be one myself? I might. If it helps, I think of the Code as more of... guidelines, than actual law. It is what you should strive to be. Try looking up the Jedi Code on Wookieepedia. It's really not as bad as people make it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraidy Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Sorry but the Jedi wanna bees are trying to re write the Jedi code... THEY DO BELIEVE THERE IS NO EMOTION.. Truly there isnt. Where does emotion exist? In your mind... What is in your head really exist? No you can make anything in your head but it doesn't really exist, nor does passion or that matter. Yes my Knight and Kira are married and love to kiss eachother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29 The Sith Emperor is just Bill Mummy all grown up. Technically I thought this was him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshines Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Oh, how I really wanted to play Republic side. And then everyone I knew went Empire. Now I am loving Empire. The Jedi do seem a bit more unrelatable. But there have been some posts on here that might help me get into the RP part of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancaglon Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) No, I call them hypocrits in that post citing those examples, but there are many more examples of this throughout the game. Many choices flagged as good are not really good at all, they are just good for the republic not even necessarily for the jedi, with no thought to the lives of the people these "good" decisions could destroy. If you've not played past Tython, this error in your understanding might be forgivable, but that's about as smart as saying all bounty hunters are irredemably evil because of the quest on Hutta about the boy and his father. As for the quest cited, "Lovers and Secrets" on Tython, the actual reasoning about why the Jedi Order discourages romance is given in that early quest. The Jedi Master that tasked you, when asked about Romance, says: "Emotions disrupt balance. When you hold one person in higher regard than others, it clouds clarity and twists reason." -- he then follows that up with "We mustn't stand by" meaning that it's his role as a Master to prevent temptation -- which is in a sense, just avoidance of the possibility, not actually dealing with it. It is part of the Jedi training to learn to act without being unduly influenced by emotion, and they only become Jedi when they have learned to do so. Edited February 8, 2012 by Ancaglon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quezcotl Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 why are you so strict about the code of honor? this is the time where they let in many jedis, who had romances/ did their own thing. We know for ex, even my reletives in the "riddarhuset/knights house" here in Sweden, that knights murdered,***** and stole from farmers even though their oath was loyality to the king and always protect the weak and poor. Same with samurais(which jedis with bushido is heavly drawn from) sometimes abandon their daiymo and his masters wish and code of honor in battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I don't see how what I said makes me a bad roleplayer. Because the whole point of being a Roleplayer, is that you make decisions based on what your Character will do, and not what You will do. If you can't make decisions for your character without being able to relate to them, then you are not playing a character, you're playing yourself. That said, anyone who hasn't made it past Courscant, really has no place in saying how Jedi are, or aren't, because you are basing your decision on the most structured and restricted part of a Jedi's life. That's a bit like basing your opinion on what life as a solider is like, based purely on boot camp. Edited February 8, 2012 by VanorDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyaralath Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You're right...the Jedi are useless scum. Join the Sith! Dominate the galaxy...crave excitement and adventure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intarabus Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) About the Tython quest, many oversee that in the consular quest you bring that roque Jedi master, Fain, back to the light side, and next thing you have to do is to fight his daughter, who is also a Jedi knight. So, there are even kind of jedi families which are approved in that era of the order, even if it might be an exception. For me it was never a question I start off as Jedi. Why? Because I wanted to play the good guys, and to me there is nothing boring in the concept of Jedi as seeing him as an enlightened, a little absent justice keeper, strolling around in the galaxy and helping others. Edited February 8, 2012 by Intarabus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackofrost Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 My Jedi is dark, specifically because light side "peace only" side is annoying. Light Jedi = doing it wrong... I think based on the current in game jedi code, luke skywalker would be considered dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaskull Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) It sure would be allot more interessting to be a "warrior" aided/strenghtened by the force aiding the troops under his/her command, that's my version of a Sith, that's what I'd like to be, supporting the troops on the field of battle, aswell as achieving such a position that I can put resources into research/manufacturing of military equipment [and experimental technology] to boost the offensive capabilitys of a single trooper, aswell as starships etc. Playing as SI, I actually get to experience some of that Playing as Republic was never seen as an option by me Darksider, Darth-Reyeja-Kâli. Edited February 9, 2012 by gaskull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krumple Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 For a moment, I would like to speak briefly about The Jedi in general and why I feel that playing a Jedi in the game is for the most part, pointless. Growing up as a kid and watching Star Wars, I always had fantasies of being a Jedi, I'm sure you all did at some point. However, I feel that the way Jedi are represented now is a complete mockery. Sacrificing your emotions and all normal responsibilities and instinct is like taking a needle and lobotomizing yourself, taking away all aspects of a person that makes them, them. If emotion does indeed "blind us", then how on Earth were these people ever motivated to establish the order? Obviously, you wanted something done, you wanted to protect the galaxy. It is that want and drive, that alone is part of an emotion. So does that make the Jedi hypocrites? Possibly. Speaking in actuality, I find the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular storylines and characters to be completely unrelatable and boring. I do not feel any emotional attachment to my character while playing them and I feel like I have as much emotion as a Protocol Droid. The Sith have their alternative beliefs, but they also carry with them, themselves. They keep their emotions, they keep their love, hatred, whatever. They get to keep their emotions and they have the drive to see something done. So my question is, why even play as a Jedi? Why be someone that is hard to relate to, when you can be a Sith Warrior and go lightside without the hazards or limitations of a guideline? Yes, normally light side options are looked down by Sith players, but I don't think of Jedi or Sith as stereotypes, I just think of them as different perspectives. Take for example, Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima, both movies directed by Clint Eastwood. I hated Flags of our Fathers because it told a very sappy and illiterate story, I didn't feel sorry for these people that had 15 minutes of fame. I also felt as though that the American side had less sympathy and were blinded by their orders and duty as "soldiers". Letters from Iwo Jima on the other hand, while the Japanese are considered as enemies in our eyes, through their eyes they are only serving their country and doing what they think is right. They have honor, respect and most of all culture. So all in all, my question to you all is, why did you choose to create a Jedi Knight or Consular? What are you reasons? Is it because you feel that picking the good side is just and a normality, or is your childhood love of the original trilogy or for the ten of you out there the prequel trilogy, just? Give into your hate... The jedi are weak, pathetic and might as well be droids. Peace is a lie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctified Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 For a moment, I would like to speak briefly about The Jedi in general and why I feel that playing a Jedi in the game is for the most part, pointless. Growing up as a kid and watching Star Wars, I always had fantasies of being a Jedi, I'm sure you all did at some point. However, I feel that the way Jedi are represented now is a complete mockery. Sacrificing your emotions and all normal responsibilities and instinct is like taking a needle and lobotomizing yourself, taking away all aspects of a person that makes them, them. If emotion does indeed "blind us", then how on Earth were these people ever motivated to establish the order? Obviously, you wanted something done, you wanted to protect the galaxy. It is that want and drive, that alone is part of an emotion. So does that make the Jedi hypocrites? Possibly. Speaking in actuality, I find the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular storylines and characters to be completely unrelatable and boring. I do not feel any emotional attachment to my character while playing them and I feel like I have as much emotion as a Protocol Droid. The Sith have their alternative beliefs, but they also carry with them, themselves. They keep their emotions, they keep their love, hatred, whatever. They get to keep their emotions and they have the drive to see something done. So my question is, why even play as a Jedi? Why be someone that is hard to relate to, when you can be a Sith Warrior and go lightside without the hazards or limitations of a guideline? Yes, normally light side options are looked down by Sith players, but I don't think of Jedi or Sith as stereotypes, I just think of them as different perspectives. Take for example, Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima, both movies directed by Clint Eastwood. I hated Flags of our Fathers because it told a very sappy and illiterate story, I didn't feel sorry for these people that had 15 minutes of fame. I also felt as though that the American side had less sympathy and were blinded by their orders and duty as "soldiers". Letters from Iwo Jima on the other hand, while the Japanese are considered as enemies in our eyes, through their eyes they are only serving their country and doing what they think is right. They have honor, respect and most of all culture. So all in all, my question to you all is, why did you choose to create a Jedi Knight or Consular? What are you reasons? Is it because you feel that picking the good side is just and a normality, or is your childhood love of the original trilogy or for the ten of you out there the prequel trilogy, just? Not that I want to derail this or anything, but the qualities that you enjoyed about Letters to Iwo Jima are precisely the same qualities that others enjoyed about Flags of our fathers. Praising one over the other is pointless, unless you have an anime bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskers Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 A lot of people have said Bioware failed at this or failed at that because its not like Luke Skywalker or Mace windou or some other such character from the original star wars saga. For one, that saga was set in 1 small section of the full extended universes history. (And yes we need to include the full extended universe into consideration because little to none of the movies are at all referenced or included in SWTOR, its all extended universe based) Now as for Luke Skywalker, he was far far from a traditional Jedi. Look at the order he created after the fall of the empire. In his order love and relationships were allowed I believe. It was much more relaxed, where as if you compare to the order in KOTOR 1, even going to help out entire systems being burned by the Mandalorians was a darkside choice (according to the council) punishable by apparently exile. My theory (just a theory), is that the larger a jedi order gets the more arrogant they become because inner politics (which is inescapable in any organization) corrupts and tempts the masters too much, for them to remain pure and emotionless as the code suggests. My point is that the jedi order of any given time is vastly based on who is on the council, just like the culture of a company is based on its Senior Management Group and the decisions they make. As for light side dark side, Bioware definitely understands (when looking at some of their games like Dragon Age) that there is no right and wrong. As Nietzsche once said "There are no facts, only opinions", or as Hamlet said in Shakespere's play "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" A person's beliefs and perspectives drastically alter their viewpoints on what is moral and immoral, and they have tried to convey that within the restrictions of the black and white universe that is star wars. But when you look at it again, and how arrogant a lot of the jedi might be, and the glimmers of hope in some of the sith lords as they occasionally choose morally, you see that star wars actually isn't black and white. Like our world, they all think of themselves as black and white, selfless and selfish (for reasons of ego and self-worth), but in actuality are many shades of grey. So choosing jedi or sith is more of a political choice between republic and empire, then a moral one, and hence Dark Jedi and Light Sith make sense if you understand the difference between politics and morality. (They say all politicians are evil because there is no way with the sorts of decisions they make, to be fully moral, your always going to hurt somebody despite how hard you try to be perfect) As for the whole emotions issue, that aspect of the jedi are definitely based on Buddhism who believe that life is suffering. That desires, ambitions and addictions are all negative and should be warded against. I say warded against because they are like being in love, you don't choose to have those feelings, they just happen. All you can do is train yourself against them. And eventually you may find enlightenment (as the Buddhists say). The reason for this philosophy amongst the jedi is because of the power they wield. As that line in spiderman goes: With great power comes great responsibility. Its all about the risk, love has proven time and time again to lead to tragedy amongst very powerful individuals. (why do you think Superman refuses to give in to his love for Louis?) And regarding the code itself, the code is like Nietzsche's Ubermensch (aka superman, or ideal person, much like a "fully enlightened Buddhist"). It is a "perfect" ideal to strive for, such a person or such a state doesn't actually exist due to the impossibility of perfection itself. You can never have a perfect chair, or a perfect football play, but such perfections gives us direction and drive to better ourselves and become more and more similar to our ideal. So in this light it is very important, and without it the jedi would be direction-less and achieve next to nothing. As for the Sith apparently being too monstrous. Considering this is suppose to be the "true sith empire", and that they have been stewing in their little hidden corner of the galaxy for 1000s of years, planning, plotting a very very cold revenge, do you really think they would be anything but monsters? In the inquisitor story, if you choose it, you can actually vocalize your ambition to change that aspect of the Sith, saying that its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskers Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 My Jedi is dark, specifically because light side "peace only" side is annoying. Light Jedi = doing it wrong... I think based on the current in game jedi code, luke skywalker would be considered dark side. btw, definitely agree with the luke thing here. He is a dark jedi, and that idea is supported by the fact that he wears black towards the end of the trilogy, which is star wars George Lucas uses as a symbol quite a lot. Dark Vadar and the Emperor both wear black. Storm Troopers are cold white, because they aren't evil per-see they just follow orders, but aren't doing anything to help good. The bounty hunters aren't black. Yoda and Obi Wan wear white or off white browns. Han Solo wears both white and black because he's torn between the 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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