The Imperial Alderaan Poor Strategy Epidemic

[sarcatic]

After a discussion with other members of the pvp community, I felt the need to make a post to educate the masses (specifically imperial PUGs) on how to play “The Civil War” or “Alderaan”.

 

Recently, an epidemic has hit our server’s pvp community. This epidemic is the “take both sides and ignore mid” epidemic. We must all do our best to eradicate this from our server’s pvp community.The fine guild of, <Bad Reputation> has gathered important data by doing extensive research in Alderaan to prove our point that taking the middle turret as well as a side is the best strategy.

 

Let us first discuss why people think it is better to take both sides. People believe that having the speeder that goes directly to a base is advantageous because it allows them to reinforce that base faster. A quick note for those who do not know, is that you must be dead to use that speeder. After releasing spirit, it will take you about 13 seconds to fly in (excluding running to the speeder), and an additional 2 seconds to walk to the turret (obviously some classes can charge or are ranged and do not need to walk directly to the turret). The general population feels that this is a suitable strategy for winning (ignoring that CC is the key to taking a turret and that flying in allows you to be easily cced before getting a cast off).

 

The teams that maintain both sides are now able to fly in quickly to either of their bases (assuming they are dead), but how will they reinforce further? If one base is attacked and needs reinforcements that exceed the amount of dead players what will their team do? They have to walk from one side to the other. We have timed this walk and found that uninterrupted it would take 35 seconds. This process may be sped up slightly by class abilities or the sprint buff found underneath the middle turret. The key however is that it is very easy to slow or stop these reinforcements from arriving. A simple ‘sap’ or area of effect slow can negate reinforcements from ever reaching that other base in time. As long as those players that are trying to reinforce are alive and in transition from one base to another, they cannot use the faster speeder, thus negating the benefit of having the side.

 

We have now established the essential timings needed for holding both side bases. It is a 13 second fly in, and a 35 second transfer for players to head from one side to the other. Now we are going to discuss what I propose players do instead; which is take the middle turret and one of the side turrets (preferably the one that your team’s spawn favors). The flight in to the middle turret takes 13 seconds, and an additional 10 seconds to reach the middle turret for a total of 23 seconds. Obviously this exceed the time that the direct speeder to turret strategy gives you by about 10 seconds.Where this strategy shines however, is in the transfer time between bases. To walk from the middle turret to the side turret it takes about 18 seconds, to walk back it takes 20. Both of these times are much smaller then the timing to go from side to side, and negate a large amount of the risk of being slowed and cc’ed on the way.

 

When you have the middle and side turrets you are greatly reducing the time it takes to reinforce. Instead of having to spend 35 seconds moving from one side to another, you can nearly reduce that time by 50% (15-17 seconds). The sacrifice of this is that when you are dead, it is harder to reinforce the middle base by about 10 seconds. The middle turret however is much easier to defend because of the line of sight and kiting potential from objects and separate levels. It also allows you to better see where players are going from their spawn point (if you have the turret that favors your spawn you will either be able to see them run to it from their middle flight path, or watch them walk underneath the middle turret where they can easily be slowed or cc’ed to delay their attack to the side turret.)

 

To summarize, the only benefit of having both side turrets is reinforcing when you are dead. If you are dieing often, you are likely not going to be winning in Alderaan. If you hold the middle and side turrets you have a much easier time reinforcing each turret with players that are still alive, and you also have a much easier time harassing the other team from attacking your side turret. While the middle turret is the turret that takes the longest to get back to, the benefits of having it (including the two expertise buffs that spawn directly in the middle turret area, and the better line of sight objects) far out way benefits that only help your team when you are dead. I hope more players realise that attacking the middle turret at the beginning is very important and that holding it gives you a much better chance at winning.

 

Next time on <Bad Reputation> tries to help improve pvp, we will discuss the importance of the Line of Sight objects on Voidstar and why you don’t need to stand on the door to defend it efficiently.

 

TLDR

There is only one benefit to the double side strat. Which does not outweigh the potential possibility of failure to protect zergs from organized teams. You will get ripped 4 v (4-8), good teams will predict where you will be flying back in to the battle (after 13 seconds) and they will prevent you from capping.

 

-Sark (Edited by Rival)

[Epicycle]

uh thats a lot of text, but i prefer mid and one side too.

[Squarez]

Transitions from mid to side are better than the over-commit and predictable landing of the sides.

[Pipelayar]

So logic prevails?

[Zunayson]

I read about the time it takes to go between bases, stopped at about paragraph 3ish

 

I take both sides because the other side is most likely sending only 2-3 people to their left (Our right). Because of this, it's easy for us to take their left (our right), and most of the time easy for us to take our left. This leaves us 2 turrets, simply because most people haven't done it until now, when it's spreading.

 

What server are you on, by the way? I'm on Dreshdae Cantina, and I sort of.. "invented it"... well came up with it - I'm 100% sure others have before me.

 

Then I usually tell some to go underground, and get the speed buff when one side is zerg'd.

 

If you can hold a side well, then the 2 side strat is good for you. But feel free to use this. Fact is that 98% of all teams I see (All, in fact) send a zerg to mid. Also, I rack up enough wins for daily with this, so I'll do this, thank you very much.

 

Why not just wait to see what the imps do? And just sit in spawn for 5 extra seconds?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Zunayson

[Kelticfury]

I read about the time it takes to go between bases, stopped at about paragraph 3ish

 

I take both sides because the other side is most likely sending only 2-3 people to their left (Our right). Because of this, it's easy for us to take their left (our right), and most of the time easy for us to take our left. This leaves us 2 turrets, simply because most people haven't done it until now, when it's spreading.

 

What server are you on, by the way? I'm on Dreshdae Cantina, and I sort of.. "invented it"... well came up with it - I'm 100% sure others have before me.

 

Then I usually tell some to go underground, and get the speed buff when one side is zerg'd.

 

If you can hold a side well, then the 2 side strat is good for you. But feel free to use this. Fact is that 98% of all teams I see (All, in fact) send a zerg to mid. Also, I rack up enough wins for daily with this, so I'll do this, thank you very much.

 

Why not just wait to see what the imps do? And just sit in spawn for 5 extra seconds?

 

1 left 3 mid 4 right. Anyone try this? ofcourse if the team is full of people who don't even have sprint yet, as is usually the case, it would fail.

[Pipelayar]

I read about the time it takes to go between bases, stopped at about paragraph 3ish

 

I take both sides because the other side is most likely sending only 2-3 people to their left (Our right). Because of this, it's easy for us to take their left (our right), and most of the time easy for us to take our left. This leaves us 2 turrets, simply because most people haven't done it until now, when it's spreading.

 

What server are you on, by the way? I'm on Dreshdae Cantina, and I sort of.. "invented it"... well came up with it - I'm 100% sure others have before me.

 

Then I usually tell some to go underground, and get the speed buff when one side is zerg'd.

 

If you can hold a side well, then the 2 side strat is good for you. But feel free to use this. Fact is that 98% of all teams I see (All, in fact) send a zerg to mid. Also, I rack up enough wins for daily with this, so I'll do this, thank you very much.

 

Why not just wait to see what the imps do? And just sit in spawn for 5 extra seconds?

 

If people go underground and camp the speed buffs to counter zergs. The other team if competent will have an operative or jug sit down their and sap or chain slow or stun. It would take 1 dude to prevent or slow the people that you are sending.

 

If a premade takes mid against your strat they can float people over to the side node after they get free mid. And its gg.

[Dacari]

Sark & Rival,

 

I applaud you for trying to educate the masses. The two sides strategy, has been cropping its ugly head on our side of Iron Citadel as well. I've had people flame, belittle, insult and laugh at me for going mid instead of both sides. Thankfully I usually get off the speeders first and lead the zerg to the middle. I love how some people follow me like lemmings!

 

I think the two side strategy was born through having 1 stealther or strong DPS go right and try to delay/ninja cap the left. This would happen especially before the Smuggler nerfs; Nova was great for doing that. All of a sudden the left side and right would be capped while middle was being fiercely contested.

 

The baddies, who would die in mid instead of use LOS, position and/or CC, would go left or right and protect that while middle would eventually settle. Low and behold, there is a short lead with both sides being held!

 

However, now that the opposing team has the mid, they can attack on side heavily while simultaneously harassing/scouting reinforcements and pick on the other side turret when people overcommit!

 

This happens and one turret is held with everyone on our side being on it, while mid and the other side turret and lost. The lead we earned disappears. People start insulting other people because empire pugs seem to be at the right place at the wrong time! Not to mention the run time to get anywhere from one side turret.

 

Having said that, please make sure to continue going for sides when you queue against me. I prefer getting a free cap at mid then flanking the forces that go right .

 

No one ever suspects a healer burning down your squishes in the back!

 

-Snow

Edited February 6, 2012 by Dacari

[Steww]

What your post fails to mention is that focus firing down 4 (assuming an even split) means that you're probably killing one person every 5 seconds, meaning for every 2 people you kill one can speeder back. The other squad can reinforce or just take middle easily.

[Swaggz]

This strat is also hitting our server as well. We've actually used this to our advantage though as well. While running with 2 others from guild we were able to direct our team to take both sides and leave mid, while forcing the opposing team to zerg either the left or right side. When they did this we were able to defend long enough on the side they chose inorder to take mid and control the rest of the game from there.

 

While I agree that it may not be the best strat inorder to win, it is pretty good if used properly (by a competent team) inorder to force your opponents hand. It's not a 100% win, but it works in certain situations.

[Astarica]

Taking both side is a great strategy. The problem is that this assumes your enemy is dumb enough to lose the side cannon closer to them.

 

Let's say side 1 goes 6 middle 2 side, side 2 goes 6/2 on sides (6 to the side that's natural to the enemy). As soon as you run to middle and see no opposition, side 1 should leave 2 people in the middle to cap, while the 4 who used to go to middle immediately turn into ramp. The 2 guys at side 1 will reach their canno first, followed closely by 6 guys from side 2, and then followed by 4 guys from side 1. So it's basically a 6 on 6. Note that there's a Warzone powerup from the spot you jump off from middle to side, so side 1 most likely has an advantage here too.

 

However, the side cannon is closer to side 1 compared to side 2, and at this point it is not controlled by anyone. So, continued fighting there will favor side 1, whose reinforcements can get there sooner.

 

Attacking side basically assumes your attack can overpower the defenders and then cap it before the middle team gets there. This assumes first 2 enemy defenders (they will always get there) won't realize this and just LoS and stall until the middle team arrives. Once the middle team arrives, in an uncapped cannon the side that is closer has an advantage, so all else being equal you'd expect this attack to fail.

 

Another problem with the take sides strategy is that say you defend with 4/4, and the enemy attacks with 6 or 7 players. Even with the respawn advantage, you can still lose the cannon. Now, if you're saying your other 4 guys should be quick to intercept and help the fight, but in that case those guys can float between middle/side, and middle to side is generally a bit faster than side to side since you can't be sure that the speed powerup is always there, and at most 2 guys can pick it up.

[Daex]

That entire post you made is gigantic fail. Realistically best tactic is too see where the opponent goes and decide on the spot which to turret to take because in any case, once you have the turret, it's easier to defend, than to take one over.

 

It also often comes down to simple killing. If you can kill the opposing team you are way more likely to win. Can't count how many times have I gone right and soloed a person who went to cap and took it over for my team. I only remember handful of games that I lost and we were stronger than opposing team.

[DrekorSilverfang]

It's often better to just go along with and support your teams awful strategy than try and do your own thing. I've had teams where 3 would go to one side and 4 to the other. Do I go mid by myself against 6 people and die nearly instantly and accomplish nothing at the cost of possibly not capping one of the sides?

[Astarica]

It's often better to just go along with and support your teams awful strategy than try and do your own thing. I've had teams where 3 would go to one side and 4 to the other. Do I go mid by myself against 6 people and die nearly instantly and accomplish nothing at the cost of possibly not capping one of the sides?

 

You'll be surprised how useful that is because it means 6 guys aren't somewhere else right now if they chased you down.

 

Usually I go with whatever bad straetegy people thought would work, but you should always try to stall for time on defending, and occasionally attack what ought to be a well-defended position, just to keep the enemy honest so they don't try to leave nobody or just 1 guy defending. For example a lot of time you attack what appears to be the an empty position and 2 guys of doom came out and own you, and you tells yourself that seems useless, but honestly if you're sure that's their two best players, then it means your team should have a considerable edge elsehwere, and you've to periodically make sure those two best players really are defending as opposed to joining the fight elsewhere.

[Randomness]

That entire post you made is gigantic fail. Realistically best tactic is too see where the opponent goes and decide on the spot which to turret to take because in any case, once you have the turret, it's easier to defend, than to take one over.

 

It also often comes down to simple killing. If you can kill the opposing team you are way more likely to win. Can't count how many times have I gone right and soloed a person who went to cap and took it over for my team. I only remember handful of games that I lost and we were stronger than opposing team.

 

Exactly. If the enemy team commits all their resources to mid, then it's stupid to attack mid.

 

"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." -Sun Tzu

 

"So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." -Sun Tzu

Edited February 6, 2012 by Randomness

[kalexkhan]

The only advantage 2 sides gives you is that it usually spreads mid out some so you can give up one side of your choosing and re-take mid at the most opportune time!

 

In other words, Im in total agreement, mid is the most secure key to winning.

 

2 sides is when you are playing from behind and are trying to tale back mid.

[Dacari]

That entire post you made is gigantic fail. Realistically best tactic is too see where the opponent goes and decide on the spot which to turret to take because in any case, once you have the turret, it's easier to defend, than to take one over.

 

It also often comes down to simple killing. If you can kill the opposing team you are way more likely to win. Can't count how many times have I gone right and soloed a person who went to cap and took it over for my team. I only remember handful of games that I lost and we were stronger than opposing team.

 

I agree that scouting the enemy is very important. However, getting the mid point not only allows you to quickly scout the enemies true movements (easily see doubling backs, tunnels and respawners directions), but to intercept and delay as the need arises. Being at either side point only gives you part of the picture for enemy movements whereas gives the whole picture. I'd still have mid as the highest priority target for only that reason.

 

There are tips and tricks I've yet to discuss that gives mid more value. Speeders are a poor substitution for scouting, positioning, striking and defending.

[RealAeiouy]

I read about the time it takes to go between bases, stopped at about paragraph 3ish

 

I take both sides because the other side is most likely sending only 2-3 people to their left (Our right). Because of this, it's easy for us to take their left (our right), and most of the time easy for us to take our left. This leaves us 2 turrets, simply because most people haven't done it until now, when it's spreading.

 

What server are you on, by the way? I'm on Dreshdae Cantina, and I sort of.. "invented it"... well came up with it - I'm 100% sure others have before me.

 

Then I usually tell some to go underground, and get the speed buff when one side is zerg'd.

 

If you can hold a side well, then the 2 side strat is good for you. But feel free to use this. Fact is that 98% of all teams I see (All, in fact) send a zerg to mid. Also, I rack up enough wins for daily with this, so I'll do this, thank you very much.

 

Why not just wait to see what the imps do? And just sit in spawn for 5 extra seconds?

 

Yeah middle Zerg is common that is why two sides is much better to start. You can then migrate to side and middle but trying to take the middle to start just ends with a 1-1-1 situation instead of a 2-1 where you start building a lead.

 

While the op is right for mid fight strategy it is a wrong opening strategy most of the time. As you note taking the sides is still much easier to start.

[Randomness]

Yeah middle Zerg is common that is why two sides is much better to start. You can then migrate to side and middle but trying to take the middle to start just ends with a 1-1-1 situation instead of a 2-1 where you start building a lead.

 

While the op is right for mid fight strategy it is a wrong opening strategy most of the time. As you note taking the sides is still much easier to start.

 

Now, if you send one or two people who can harass mid from a distance to stall the capture a bit (while taking their side), you can REALLY mess them up. Too bad there aren't any AoE DoTs...

[Astarica]

A good team holding the two side cannons will almost never lose those cannons.

 

But that's why you should not assume the enemy is so dumb that they'd let you pull this off.

[Astarica]

Yeah middle Zerg is common that is why two sides is much better to start. You can then migrate to side and middle but trying to take the middle to start just ends with a 1-1-1 situation instead of a 2-1 where you start building a lead.

 

While the op is right for mid fight strategy it is a wrong opening strategy most of the time. As you note taking the sides is still much easier to start.

 

As soon as you see no opposition in middle the guys who went to middle just go on the ramp to defend their side cannon. This also means you're likely to be closer to their ranged character (since you're coming from behind) which gives you a considerable advantage in the fight.

[RealAeiouy]

Sark & Rival,

 

I applaud you for trying to educate the masses. The two sides strategy, has been cropping its ugly head on our side of Iron Citadel as well. I've had people flame, belittle, insult and laugh at me for going mid instead of both sides. Thankfully I usually get off the speeders first and lead the zerg to the middle. I love how some people follow me like lemmings!

 

I think the two side strategy was born through having 1 stealther or strong DPS go right and try to delay/ninja cap the left. This would happen especially before the Smuggler nerfs; Nova was great for doing that. All of a sudden the left side and right would be capped while middle was being fiercely contested.

 

The baddies, who would die in mid instead of use LOS, position and/or CC, would go left or right and protect that while middle would eventually settle. Low and behold, there is a short lead with both sides being held!

 

However, now that the opposing team has the mid, they can attack on side heavily while simultaneously harassing/scouting reinforcements and pick on the other side turret when people overcommit!

 

This happens and one turret is held with everyone on our side being on it, while mid and the other side turret and lost. The lead we earned disappears. People start insulting other people because empire pugs seem to be at the right place at the wrong time! Not to mention the run time to get anywhere from one side turret.

 

Having said that, please make sure to continue going for sides when you queue against me. I prefer getting a free cap at mid then flanking the forces that go right .

 

No one ever suspects a healer burning down your squishes in the back!

 

-Snow

 

 

 

I will as I build a lead 2-1 and then when you go for a second turret i take the middle and you lose.

[Dacari]

I will as I build a lead 2-1 and then when you go for a second turret i take the middle and you lose.

 

Why would you have the turret closest to my side when I go mid?

 

If you send 5 to my left, I can send 6 and keep 2 to cover mid once it is taken. If you send your remaining 3, I bet you I could hold mid 3v2 until reinforcements come. If you overload left with everyone then it is closer for my side to get there and your reinforcements will be harassed as they come to left. I doubt u could get a cap immediately, assuming average player skill level across both sides. You risk much by ceding mid to gamble for side caps.

[Pipelayar]

What your post fails to mention is that focus firing down 4 (assuming an even split) means that you're probably killing one person every 5 seconds, meaning for every 2 people you kill one can speeder back. The other squad can reinforce or just take middle easily.

 

Which proves that holding mid and a side is how you win.

[Bnol]

It isn't a bad strat to take the sides on the breakout. You take whatever is the easiest to cap as defending any node is infinitely easier than taking one over.

 

The sides are very easy to defend if you have somewhat competent players. If you have a 4-4 division for defense once they are capped it is hard to take back the sides. It is pretty easy to stall a 6 person zerg with 4 people, and if they zerg with more you can instead have reinforcements from the other side take middle quickly, while you stall their zerg.