How to fix Tracer/Grav spam?

[Gerrard_Ennui]

You can't make sweeping changes like this, based only on anecdotal PvP references, in a game without a combat log or any ability to parse. It's just not a good idea and I really hope that Bioware knows that too.

[Rekios]

Every BH getting defensive here needs to get a grip.

 

Designing an entire spec around spamming one ability is bad game design. That's not debatable.

 

As it stands right now, BHs are rewarded for pressing only one button. I don't know how many of you have been on the other side of it, but it sucks.

 

Am I saying Tracer Missile should be nerfed and that's that? No. What I am saying it the entire tree need to be redone. Will tracer missile be nerfed in that process? of course. Should other abilities get buffed in return? absolutely.

[PullinStuff]

Every BH getting defensive here needs to get a grip.

 

Designing an entire spec around spamming one ability is bad game design. That's not debatable.

 

As it stands right now, BHs are rewarded for pressing only one button. I don't know how many of you have been on the other side of it, but it sucks.

 

Am I saying Tracer Missile should be nerfed and that's that? No. What I am saying it the entire tree need to be redone. Will tracer missile be nerfed in that process? of course. Should other abilities get buffed in return? absolutely.

 

The entire spec is not Tracer missile, it is designed around it, there is a difference. I speak for myself but others have said the same (we who are actually bounty hunters), we do not hit one button. My rotation 4 TM total, might up it to 5 when I hit 50, but there is Rail Shot, Unload, Rapid Shot, Missile Blast, Explosive Dart, Electro Dart that I throw into the rotation.

 

Why?

BECAUSE IT IS BETTER...

Tactically and Damage wise

Rail and Unload are buffed by TM, no brainer there

Rapid Shot costs 0 heat, it helps keep me below 40%

Rapid, Missile, Explosive and Electro can be used on the move for when I get focused or if I am playing a good player who seeks to break LOS and hopes I am a bad player who does not know I have instants (thinks I am tracering him to death)

 

Finally, I also use Rocket Punch and Jet Boost, for when I am in a sticky situation with a bunch of close combat guys, if it is off CD I will Electro Dart as well. Great way to run the clock in HB when you are winning, give it to a BH mixing HA/Survivability with making distance between himself and enemies is a great tactic.

 

But please all of you go on with how YOU know what good players are doing, since your view of a good player is a bad player in my book, I hope to see you on the opposite side of a PVP field someday.

[PullinStuff]

Usually, when a large enough crowd has a problem with something, there is a reason behind it.

 

Bad Players are more common than good ones...

 

Same reasoning is used by governments, if enough people do not mind violating this demographic, it should be fine...

 

Bad players in games and bad players in life are more common than good ones, it is why the successful are the ultimate minority in all societies, here and in RL....

 

The game all in all is done pretty well, bad players do bad player stuff, good players find ways around it. My 24 Marauder killed one 45 Grav Round hero 11 times in VS less than an hour ago, I am not wearing pvp gear, he was, he got one killing blow after a knight focused me while I was slicing him to bits. Hell, I choked/Saber threw him to death once...

 

Stop being bad players, and if you can't, resign that good players in a balanced game will always do better than you.

[nogoodtomedead]

Am I saying Tracer Missile should be nerfed and that's that? No. What I am saying it the entire tree need to be redone. Will tracer missile be nerfed in that process? of course. Should other abilities get buffed in return? absolutely.

 

This talent tree also boosts the dmg of Unload, railshot, and heatseeker missile, as well as give my rocket punch a knockback. I use all these abilites and more in Pvp. As i stated prior tracerx3, heatseeker,unload,tracerx2, railshot. anyone that gets close gets a few other surprises like. Oh did I mention that I use explosive dart and sometimes fusion missile?

 

Yes, one button spammers do exist but they are completely playing this class and spec wrong. I eat them alive cause I use a variety of abilities. Its very seldom in warzones that theres a 1v1 fight. every time I switch targets rapidly its going to look like tracer spamming and the reason for it is because I have to apply the debuff to each new target to achieve max dmg with heatseeker missile.

 

Even if bioware lessens the dmg by tracer and boost dmg of other abilities; your still going to die just as quick as before.

[PullinStuff]

This talent tree also boosts the dmg of Unload, railshot, and heatseeker missile, as well as give my rocket punch a knockback. I use all these abilites and more in Pvp. As i stated prior tracerx3, heatseeker,unload,tracerx2, railshot. anyone that gets close gets a few other surprises like. Oh did I mention that I use explosive dart and sometimes fusion missile?

 

Yes, one button spammers do exist but they are completely playing this class and spec wrong. I eat them alive cause I use a variety of abilities. Its very seldom in warzones that theres a 1v1 fight. every time I switch targets rapidly its going to look like tracer spamming and the reason for it is because I have to apply the debuff to each new target to achieve max dmg with heatseeker missile.

 

Even if bioware lessens the dmg by tracer and boost dmg of other abilities; your still going to die just as quick as before.

 

And this is why good players beat bad ones.

[KhealThar]

Mercs/Commando only do a lot of damage when you leave them to free cast, just jump on them and they can't really do much.

 

The way the tree is designed is around Tracer Missile. Yes, it's possible to just spam it and do good damage but that's because most people in random Warzones aren't good players at all and they tunnel vision onto a target and don't stop the one actually doing damage.

 

Most of them just tunnel healers until they die and then rage in /ops chat that no one attacked the healer.

 

I play an Assassin currently and I don't really find anything "overpowered". Sure, arsenal is powerful, but it isn't any stronger than anything else, Unless you leave him alone.

[Yazule]

QQ much?

 

actually no, if you look at my posts you will see i QQ not at all about my class or others, kthxbye

[archzai]

Why is spamming force lightning or force pebbles acceptable but not tracer? I'm confused.

[glenbruton]

I guess tracer missile is bad if you just sit there and let them wail on you.... I perfer to do something about it.

[glenbruton]

Why is spamming force lightning or force pebbles acceptable but not tracer? I'm confused.

 

Probably because tracer missle has a bigger sound effect Man I hate force pebbles though.

[archzai]

Probably because tracer missle has a bigger sound effect Man I hate force pebbles though.

 

I just find it mind boggling that no one complains that force lightning/pebbles is a bit ridiculous that it does quite high damage AND slows too.

[Rhinzual]

I just find it mind boggling that no one complains that force lightning/pebbles is a bit ridiculous that it does quite high damage AND slows too.

 

Oh a lot of people complain about it, trust me, they do.

[Vegastei]

Let's be honest with ourselves and each other for a moment. Tracer/Grav spam is currently the biggest blight upon the pvp landscape.

 

- It's ridiculously powerful for spamming 1 button (relative to every other spec having to use no less than 4-5 just to do the same damage and make their own skill trees maybe function). Dealing a good 2-2.5k per shot, non-crit, with a relative low cost, stacking multiple buffs/debuffs... that's almost as much as a full 3sec duration of other abilities like Ravage/Master Strike.

 

- Interrupts are useless because the more you spam, the less effective the interrupt is. This may seem counterintuitive but consider: If all I do is spam Tracer then, when I am locked out of it, I can use any of Rail Shot, Unload, or Heatseekers because they're NOT on cooldown, because all I'm doing is pressing Tracer. Everything else I can use will reliably be OFF cooldown should I actually be interrupted. Thus, playing the class wrong is actually rewarded.

 

- To be completely fair and honest, Power Shot does almost as much damage for the same time and cost... but does not stack mutliple buffs and debuffs, it will generally only trigger Combustion Cylinder. A Pyrotech can pull quite a lot with 1 button as well, but is more heavily encouraged to use a greater variety of skills.

 

Is the damage too much? Possibly, but overall dps numbers can be tuned in a variety of ways. What we need is a gameplay fix that discourges just spamming 1 button and being effectively immune to interrupts, while also being a Heavy Armor spec that stacks a 10% damage reduction giving you as much or more passive survivability as tank classes. No class should be able to 1 button 1v1, whether that class spams Tracer Missile, Force Lightning, Snipe, or Viscious Slash.

 

I'd say the best fix:

Migrate some of Tracer Missile/Power Shot's damage into other abilities, chiefly Unload, Heatseekers, and Thermal Detonator. This will leave the damage somewhat vulnerable to interrupts, and encourage players to invest 31 points into skill trees.

 

There is nothing wrong with tracer missile. 10/21 (47.7%) talents in the arsenal line buff/give tracer missile. Since the talent line focuses so much on it, its clear they want you to use it a lot. Therefore, its NOT BROKEN! It does not need to be fixed. You just DON'T LIKE IT. It may be boring, easy, mundane, ect; but it is WORKING AS INTENDED! You just don't like the intention. I agree that maybe it should be remade, but not until bioware FIXES WHAT IS BROKEN. (bugs, broken abilities, broken talents, ect)

 

Finally, don't call me crying mercenary. I am an operative. I hate ppl complaining about how a classes abiltiy is working, while I still have talents and abilities that are completely broken.

[Sigmun]

Bad Players are more common than good ones...

 

Same reasoning is used by governments, if enough people do not mind violating this demographic, it should be fine...

 

Bad players in games and bad players in life are more common than good ones, it is why the successful are the ultimate minority in all societies, here and in RL....

 

The game all in all is done pretty well, bad players do bad player stuff, good players find ways around it. My 24 Marauder killed one 45 Grav Round hero 11 times in VS less than an hour ago, I am not wearing pvp gear, he was, he got one killing blow after a knight focused me while I was slicing him to bits. Hell, I choked/Saber threw him to death once...

 

Stop being bad players, and if you can't, resign that good players in a balanced game will always do better than you.

 

I like how you think I'm a bad player just because I have problem with the damage of Tracer.

 

GJ.

 

Debate me on this. Why is it, that my highest damaging ability on a 9 second cooldown does less damage than tracer on a 0 cooldown.

[Yazule]

I like how you think I'm a bad player just because I have problem with the damage of Tracer.

 

GJ.

 

Debate me on this. Why is it, that my highest damaging ability on a 9 second cooldown does less damage than tracer on a 0 cooldown.

 

what is your build?

 

if you are a dps build and your highest damage is less than tracer then you have some major issues with gear/build/tactics or something... tracer is our 4th biggest hit tbh, unload does most damage, Heatseaker (with 5 heat sigs from TM (which is why we cast it)) is number 2 and then railshot (which some will argue TM vs railshot cause they are close overall) then TM .... i didnt throw in fusion missile, too heat restrictive to be part of a normal rotation and an AOE.

 

if you are a tank or healer, well guess what, you are not supposed to hit big (though almost all tanks i duel with hit at least one attack higher than tm)

 

*edit and i bet your big hit is an insta cast right? vs our 1.5 sec chanel... so you can interrupt us, we cant interrupt you? you really need to give more information if you want a debate about you and us... */edit

Edited February 14, 2012 by Yazule

[PullinStuff]

what is your build?

 

if you are a dps build and your highest damage is less than tracer then you have some major issues with gear/build/tactics or something... tracer is our 4th biggest hit tbh, unload does most damage, Heatseaker (with 5 heat sigs from TM (which is why we cast it)) is number 2 and then railshot (which some will argue TM vs railshot cause they are close overall) then TM .... i didnt throw in fusion missile, too heat restrictive to be part of a normal rotation and an AOE.

 

if you are a tank or healer, well guess what, you are not supposed to hit big (though almost all tanks i duel with hit at least one attack higher than tm)

 

*edit and i bet your big hit is an insta cast right? vs our 1.5 sec chanel... so you can interrupt us, we cant interrupt you? you really need to give more information if you want a debate about you and us... */edit

 

He does not want to debate, he wants to Whine about the game, when he sucks as a player.

[PullinStuff]

I like how you think I'm a bad player just because I have problem with the damage of Tracer.

 

GJ.

 

Debate me on this. Why is it, that my highest damaging ability on a 9 second cooldown does less damage than tracer on a 0 cooldown.

 

You are not a bad player because you have a problem with TM, you are a bad player because you apparently let it dominate and destroy your game experience. Rather than overcome this issue, you seek to have it nerfed.

 

You are a bad player because where others succeed you fail, and because you fail you blame the game despite others success...

 

A Good Tank can take the damage of TM, a good healer will break los as he is not looking to kill the BH and melee dps classes can break los while closing the gap.

 

Like I said become a better player or resign that better players will out perform you.

[AtyAtt]

I have fresh 50 lvl Pyro Powertech and i really don't have problem with mercenary/commandos. This guys which only spam are noobs, i grapple them, interupt them and i see that they don't know what to do, they just staying and waiting to die

Of course if there are 2 or more spammers focus on you it will be hard and you will probably die for seconds but this can happen with every class. The class is ok for me or at least i don't have problem to kill them.

Edited February 14, 2012 by AtyAtt

[DervimNorth]

Let's see. I have a 3 second channel called ravage that people can walk out of and that bugs quite frequently.

 

And the LOS arguement is lost on me because if I am LOSing the BH who is shooting me, I am also not doing damage.

 

LOS is less of an issue than having to be in melee.

 

How many of your attacks require you to be in melee?

 

All of mine do.

 

Well what do you know?! Our second damaging ability, Unload, the one that is proceed by TM, has a 3sec channeling to and, oh yeah, you can just duck behind the cover to LOS=interrupt it, or you can knock me back to interrupt it.

 

And after that I am forced back to 1.5sec casting, which you can interrupt or LOS to give yourself an edge. As for your argument that you can't do damage-that's a whole lot of laugh. You force the merc to get near the pillar and you can dance circles around him, abusing Los and doing instant hits, while that he can do is to use his default attack

[Loladarulz]

For one - Tracer is not overpowered with damage thats for sure. Its ok. And merc is in no way overpowered thats ridicioulus.

 

Is it boring and spam? = YES.

 

I would like more variety also, as OP suggested, some resuffling of buffs/effects - but no direct nerfs to class please.

[Synacus]

THIS IS WHY WE NEED COMBAT LOGS.....Its NOT TM THATS KILING YOU......TM is our auto attack we use it to PROC buffs.....my MAIN ATTACKS ARE Rail shot and unload.The WHOLE TIME I am doing TM I am hoping for a unload PROC....nothing more....

 

Its the 5 k unload and 4 k rail shot killing you.If YOU had COMBAT LOGS YOU would see this.

 

The rail shot is like just a trail of smoke you almost can't even see it.The unload looks like I'm just shooting my guns at you.But you only noice the huge *** missles shooting at your head.

[Shinavast]

Anyone issuing complaints about tracer missile should read Akobie's post in full on the first page.

 

Period.

 

If you want the class to play different, change the class.

[lijahrobinson]

I started out an Arsenal and have made the switch to Pyro and will not be going back. Playing both extensively (i am Valor 63) i have no problem with the Arsenal Tracer Missile. This is why:

 

1. They have to stay stationary to use it. - if its an ability that requires you to be a sitting duck, it should be powerful.

2. If you are getting hit by more than 2 of these missiles, you are not being aware of your surroundings - It probably means you are in the middle of Huttball and he is on the catwalks and you are not doing anything about it.

3. Line of Sight blocks - These are your friends and totally wrecks an Arsenals day. It reduces them to a time wasting mess.

4. They are not good at many of the PvP objectives - Two knockbacks, 1 stun, 1 mez, and 1 stun break. This isn't going to carry the ball far, or keep bombs off doors for very long. What they are better at is holding points on the map and generally mess up anyone not paying attention to them. If you actually focus on killing the Arsenal and do it correctly, you will find they are quite easy to take down.

 

If you find your repeatedly dying to tracer missile spam, you really need to reevaluate your gameplay and change a few minor things to make it easier on yourself.