The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[MonsAlpha]

To the OP:

 

What you fail to see is that the Sorc/Sage hybrid build requires immobility. I'm not sure how you think it's mobile at all. The ENTIRE hybrid build is set up around using telekinetic throw/force lightning constantly in order to get the proc that allows for an instant cast chain lightning/telekinetic wave.

 

In between the uses of FL/TT, use death field/force in balance. You can't move and cast something that is channeled last time I checked. Interrupts are your friend, use them on the force lightning and telekinetic throw.

 

As far as the amount of CC's, yeah there's a lot, but they are ALL fragile. In other words, if you do ANY amount of damage whatsoever to the target while he/she is CC'd, it will break and free them, except for the 2 second stun after force lift/whirlwind which isn't really that big of a deal considering the amount of CC's that people aimlessly place on someone.

[Varicite]

When a group of sorcs are chain rooting you in huttball, it's pretty obvious why they're OP.

 

I just wanted to point out that while being rooted might be extremely frustrating to a melee, as it is not effected by Resolve..

 

..being chain interrupted is equally frustrating for casters.

 

You can't move, so you can't do damage. They can't cast, so they can't do damage.

 

I see them as much the same thing, and neither is effected by any sort of diminishing return.

 

(It's times like this that I'm glad that I have ranged weapons, and very very few cast time abilities... and a root immunity. lol.)

[Varicite]

To the OP:

 

What you fail to see is that the Sorc/Sage hybrid build requires immobility. I'm not sure how you think it's mobile at all. The ENTIRE hybrid build is set up around using telekinetic throw/force lightning constantly in order to get the proc that allows for an instant cast chain lightning/telekinetic wave.

 

In between the uses of FL/TT, use death field/force in balance. You can't move and cast something that is channeled last time I checked. Interrupts are your friend, use them on the force lightning and telekinetic throw.

 

As far as the amount of CC's, yeah there's a lot, but they are ALL fragile. In other words, if you do ANY amount of damage whatsoever to the target while he/she is CC'd, it will break and free them, except for the 2 second stun after force lift/whirlwind which isn't really that big of a deal considering the amount of CC's that people aimlessly place on someone.

 

I've been telling him to interrupt force lightning for like 30 pages. I even spelled it out for him step by step, and tried to give him pointers.

 

He doesn't care about strategies, or the drawbacks of the spec, or how easy it is to shut down if necessary.

 

He doesn't care that the tradeoff for utility is a ton of damage, and that w/out the utility, there wouldn't be a whole lot left.

 

He doesn't even care if his information is correct.

 

He only cares about nerfing the hybrid spec.

[Abadus]

OMG Abadus

I found another pic of you owning these scrubs, lol:

 

http://i43.tinypic.com/21140ma.jpg

 

Most of these people are such bads

Ura a good

I need a cyt sig.. Be nice the op thinks you are a pvp master since you can hang with my dps.... I can't believe you dug up that picture of me.

 

What I would give for your burst damage. SS time tonight full dps hut ball tonight.

[richardya]

Sorcs are fun to hate

[MonsAlpha]

I've been telling him to interrupt force lightning for like 30 pages. I even spelled it out for him step by step, and tried to give him pointers.

 

He doesn't care about strategies, or the drawbacks of the spec, or how easy it is to shut down if necessary.

 

He doesn't care that the tradeoff for utility is a ton of damage, and that w/out the utility, there wouldn't be a whole lot left.

 

He doesn't even care if his information is correct.

 

He only cares about nerfing the hybrid spec.

 

What a shame lol. He must be the guy I've been killing 50 times in Voidstar.

[Nikkiree]

I need a cyt sig.. Be nice the op thinks you are a pvp master since you can hang with my dps.... I can't believe you dug up that picture of me.

 

What I would give for your burst damage. SS time tonight full dps hut ball tonight.

 

CYT sigs r cool...I need to put in my BM info

 

OK I will be nice! Sorry OP! Ima PvP master I 4got!

 

Oh, I wish we would run with a good jugg....his guard + his 9k smash + my 6k smash = old warhammer style sorc bombing... without a sorc like you!

Edited February 13, 2012 by Nikkiree

[paladinjb]

It is not healthy for a game to have a huge disparity in population between classes, between factions, or both. This game has both right now. Sometimes it is based on actual gameplay balance, or sometimes it is based on other things like aesthetics and story. It is up to the developers to balance the numbers, without ruining the balance of gameplay.

 

Sorcs are the most played class for both of those reasons. They shouldn't nerf the coolness factor of being a palpatine (or a yoda for republic version), that's just built into the game design. They need to add incentives so that more people play an underplayed class, like a sniper. The incentives should not revolve around playstyle imbalance, but it can't really happen until the classes are brought in line with each other, which brings me to my next point.

 

Sorcerers/Sages are not the only classes that are "a good deal above average" in pvp. Other people have brought up other classes and their specs, and maybe they need to be looked at too. That is an entirely different conversation. We are looking at sorcs/sages now, and we are looking at whether or not they have the right amount of tools in pvp. The answer is that they have too many, and some other classes have too little, and that is the bottom line. Do you want to give the other classes more tools, or do you want to take away from sorcs/sages?

 

On another note, I believe that some of these cries about sorcs (and mercs too) are related to the state of pvp content. Huttball is probably the most played map on most servers, and while there are lots of other classes with tricks that win game (like charge), a few of those tools are built into this one class. The other factor is that it is not a fun experience to be mowed down from range by sorcs (and mercs) sitting on ledges that you have to take a difficult route to get to, and usually are dead by that time.

 

Perhaps with some more maps out, the cries for ranged class nerfs will lessen, because there are some melee that need to be looked at too. We are not there yet, so we have to balance the game that we have right now.

[Varicite]

It is not healthy for a game to have a huge disparity in population between classes, between factions, or both. This game has both right now. Sometimes it is based on actual gameplay balance, or sometimes it is based on other things like aesthetics and story. It is up to the developers to balance the numbers, without ruining the balance of gameplay.

 

Sorcs are the most played class for both of those reasons. They shouldn't nerf the coolness factor of being a palpatine (or a yoda for republic version), that's just built into the game design. They need to add incentives so that more people play an underplayed class, like a sniper. The incentives should not revolve around playstyle imbalance, but it can't really happen until the classes are brought in line with each other, which brings me to my next point.

 

Sorcerers/Sages are not the only classes that are "a good deal above average" in pvp. Other people have brought up other classes and their specs, and maybe they need to be looked at too. That is an entirely different conversation. We are looking at sorcs/sages now, and we are looking at whether or not they have the right amount of tools in pvp. The answer is that they have too many, and some other classes have too little, and that is the bottom line. Do you want to give the other classes more tools, or do you want to take away from sorcs/sages?

 

On another note, I believe that some of these cries about sorcs (and mercs too) are related to the state of pvp content. Huttball is probably the most played map on most servers, and while there are lots of other classes with tricks that win game (like charge), a few of those tools are built into this one class. The other factor is that it is not a fun experience to be mowed down from range by sorcs (and mercs) sitting on ledges that you have to take a difficult route to get to, and usually are dead by that time.

 

Perhaps with some more maps out, the cries for ranged class nerfs will lessen, because there are some melee that need to be looked at too. We are not there yet, so we have to balance the game that we have right now.

 

I appreciate your civil approach, but for many of the reasons I've stated in the thread (limitations to CC, lower burst damage than any other dps class, the lowest number of skills that can be used while moving, total dependence on 1 spell that can be interrupted easily, dependence on being stationary), I don't think that the answer is that they have too many at all. Even with the kit that you call "a good deal above average", they are still able to be completely demolished by any average player who knows what to do.

 

We disagree w/ your bottom line, and have provided numerous details of exactly why we feel it's balanced. On the other hand, those against the hybrid spec have examples that are full of false information, and no other real supporting evidence.

 

Yes, it's no fun to be killed. That's pretty much for anyone, or did you think it was extremely fun for that Sorc to get mowed down by 2 sentinels chain jumping on him?

 

You put forth a LOT of assumptions in this post w/out anything to back up your claims. You state very simply that Sorc/Sages are a "good deal above average". Is that ALL sorcs/sages, or just the hybrid ones this thread is about?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Varicite

[carbocat]

Sroc need nerf, no the dmg but their tools.

 

knockback/jolt/electro something/ immobilize/bubble/force speed/team mate pull.

 

Its to much for a class to have!

 

Just faced a team with 6 sorc and 2 marauders, how the **** are you going to win?

with knockbacks, slow, instant whirvelwind, blinded somehow if you open on them...

 

If not something happen to them soon, ppl will leave. There is a reason why good pvpers left already

[songkla]

The real reason that sorcs/sages are OP is not because of most of the things people said in this thread, but because there are just too many of them.

 

You will get owned if there's 2 sorcs spamming lightning on you. Same if you had 2 merc spamming tracer or 2 of any class on you. 2v1, your gonna lose.

 

Everyone's only picking on the sorcs because you see them more then any class in this game.

 

That's what i think anyway.

[shaidarlol]

Sroc need nerf, no the dmg but their tools.

 

knockback/jolt/electro something/ immobilize/bubble/force speed/team mate pull.

 

Its to much for a class to have!

 

Just faced a team with 6 sorc and 2 marauders, how the **** are you going to win?

with knockbacks, slow, instant whirvelwind, blinded somehow if you open on them...

 

If not something happen to them soon, ppl will leave. There is a reason why good pvpers left already

 

good pvpers leave mainly because there is nothing left to do for them, they have the gear or is sick and tired of not getting any gear due to rng bag business.

 

it's the BAD players that are leaving because of they believe sorc/sages are op

 

tl;dr

you are pretty clueless

[justcallmetarzan]

If you let me chain telethrow, use weaken mind, project and proc mind crush and proc telewave at the back, untouched then I will do crazy damage.

 

Fair points made OP, I just disagree with them.

 

Yes - this.

 

I don't know why anyone is surprised that this class does crazy damage if allowed to use TKT uninterrupted for extended periods. It's exactly the same as letting a merc spam tracer missile. Only tracer missile casts in half the time and does twice the damage. Hmm.

[skorpius]

The real reason that sorcs/sages are OP is not because of most of the things people said in this thread, but because there are just too many of them.

 

You will get owned if there's 2 sorcs spamming lightning on you. Same if you had 2 merc spamming tracer or 2 of any class on you. 2v1, your gonna lose.

 

Everyone's only picking on the sorcs because you see them more then any class in this game.

 

That's what i think anyway.

 

You are correct, if you have two or three of the same class hitting u, your dead. It's that simple. You are right about people seeing so many of the same class and yelling nerf.

[DestyOwn]

The answer is simple:

 

NO ENERGY MANAGEMENT.

 

They can do any skills when ever they want.

 

REGEN IS ALWAYS AT THE SAME SPEED.

 

NO RESTRICTIONS ON SKILLS.

 

and

 

They can spam their main skill to proc everything else?

 

ROFL PROBLEM HERE?

 

They need a system like Snipers/Ops.

 

a DR on their FORCE.

[Cluttered]

I'd encourage any Sage that thinks they aren't overpowered to go find the best Sniper/Gunslinger on their server and go to Ilum to talk about skills, rotations, theory crafting etc.. I did this last night with a Sage I respect and when we walked away he (the Sage) came away even more convinced that his class is OP while the Sniper is sheet. I just came away more depressed at my class.

 

A Sage uses, maybe, 15 buttons....Snipers have to use around 23.

A full spec healing Sage can take off almost half a Snipers life bar in no time.

A Sage has 2 full CC's, of which I can only break one.

A Sage can almost constantly keep up their shield, which absorbs massive damage, while a Sniper gets 3 ballistic dampeners and then a small amount of absorption through Shield Probe.

A Sage can force run when in trouble...A Sniper can...uh...no answer.

A Sage can instant critical while a Sniper can get his Ambush deflected/absorbed routinely.

A Sage can keep casting for an eternity while a Sniper will quickly run out of energy.

 

The list can go on further but I think the point has been made.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Cluttered

[Varicite]

The answer is simple:

 

NO ENERGY MANAGEMENT.

 

They can do any skills when ever they want.

 

REGEN IS ALWAYS AT THE SAME SPEED.

 

NO RESTRICTIONS ON SKILLS.

 

and

 

They can spam their main skill to proc everything else?

 

ROFL PROBLEM HERE?

 

They need a system like Snipers/Ops.

 

a DR on their FORCE.

 

Why aren't you interrupting their main skill that procs everything else, then?

 

Who cares how much Force they have, they will never get a chance to use it all if you know what you're doing.

[danatharia]

The problem with sorcs is that they suffer the same issues that frost mages in WoW do. They have a tool for EVERY situation, no exception. They can sprint, drag allies to them, knockback everyone around them, slow while doing damage and stun their enemies, as well as heal very well despite going primarily dps. I won't say that they have everything or can do everything, but if there is any class in SWTOR right now that can be called "Jack of all trades" in PvP, it's the Sorc.

 

Every team is bound to have at least 4 of them, they are that popular, which leaves everyone else without a charge ability completely useless. How do you get back up to the bridges if you can't just jump back after a Sorc has blown you down for the nth time? Oh, you can't. And they will blow you down every time, or into a nearby fire conviently placed there for their pleasure.

Edited February 13, 2012 by danatharia

[shaidarlol]

I'd encourage any Sage that thinks they aren't overpowered to go find the best Sniper/Gunslinger on their server and go to Ilum to talk about skills, rotations, theory crafting etc.. I did this last night with a Sage I respect and when we walked away he (the Sage) came away even more convinced that his class is OP while the Sniper is sheet. I just came away more depressed at my class.

 

A Sage uses, maybe, 15 buttons....Snipers have to use around 23.

A full spec healing Sage can take off almost half a Snipers life bar in no time.

A Sage has 2 full CC's, of which I can only break one.

A Sage can almost constantly keep up their shield, which absorbs massive damage, while a Sniper gets 3 ballistic dampeners and then a small amount of absorption through Shield Probe.

A Sage can force run when in trouble...A Sniper can...uh...no answer.

A Sage can instant critical while a Sniper can get his Ambush deflected/absorbed routinely.

A Sage can keep casting for an eternity while a Sniper will quickly run out of energy.

 

The list can go on further but I think the point has been made.

 

i have nearly 30 binds

a full spec healer can do force lightning every 6 seconds, crushing darkness every 15s, shock every 6 seconds, i suppose he can spam you to death with lightning strike....

a sniper has also has 2 full cc's

if you consider 3.2k damage absorption every 20 seconds massive, then ok.....or you can look at one of your skills that reduces damage taken by 20% for 15 seconds and see how much damage you actually "absorbed"

when a sage force runs you do leg shot...here is your answer

instantly crit as a full healing sage? do you mean damage or heals? if he's wasting it on dmg it's probably an auto win for you

my list can go on as well but i think i've made my point

use the tools you have to win

lol 23 buttons cool story

Edited February 13, 2012 by shaidarlol

[Varicite]

I'd encourage any Sage that thinks they aren't overpowered to go find the best Sniper/Gunslinger on their server and go to Ilum to talk about skills, rotations, theory crafting etc.. I did this last night with a Sage I respect and when we walked away he (the Sage) came away even more convinced that his class is OP while the Sniper is sheet. I just came away more depressed at my class.

 

A Sage uses, maybe, 15 buttons....Snipers have to use around 23.

A full spec healing Sage can take off almost half a Snipers life bar in no time.

A Sage has 2 full CC's, of which I can only break one.

A Sage can almost constantly keep up their shield, which absorbs massive damage, while a Sniper gets 3 ballistic dampeners and then a small amount of absorption through Shield Probe.

A Sage can force run when in trouble...A Sniper can...uh...no answer.

A Sage can instant critical while a Sniper can get his Ambush deflected/absorbed routinely.

A Sage can keep casting for an eternity while a Sniper will quickly run out of energy.

 

The list can go on further but I think the point has been made.

 

This thread is about the hybrid 0/23/18 spec specifically. You can always add to the plethora of other general Nerf Sorc/Sage! threads, though.

[DestyOwn]

Why aren't you interrupting their main skill that procs everything else, then?

 

Who cares how much Force they have, they will never get a chance to use it all if you know what you're doing.

 

I do when im not CHAINED CC"d

[danatharia]

I do when im not CHAINED CC"d

Don't forget that the interrupt actually has a cooldown as well, interrupt them once and they'll soon be there doing the same thing to you again, this time you being completely unable to do jack **** about it.

[DestyOwn]

i have nearly 30 binds

a full spec healer can do force lightning every 6 seconds, crushing darkness every 15s, shock every 6 seconds, i suppose he can spam you to death with lightning strike....

a sniper has also has 2 full cc's

if you consider 3.2k damage absorption every 20 seconds massive, then ok.....or you can look at one of your skills that reduces damage taken by 20% for 15 seconds and see how much damage you actually "absorbed"

when a sage force runs you do leg shot...here is your answer

instantly crit as a full healing sage? do you mean damage or heals? if he's wasting it on dmg it's probably an auto win for you

my list can go on as well but i think i've made my point

use the tools you have to win

lol 23 buttons cool story

 

LOL?

 

Snipers need the 4 quickslots bars to function.

 

a sorc need what 2? max 2. just look at the stream of Atroxcis he uses about 8 spells and just ***** everyone.

 

Sniper (have) energy management, when you go below 60 your regen becomes trash, and every spells cost 20.... and by default you have 100 energy.

 

no evasion skills, no sprint, no shield...

 

no dot cleanse, no heals

Edited February 13, 2012 by DestyOwn

[seekerofpower]

I really don't understand why sorc/sages are cryin at the moment that they don't need a nerf cause this class "squishy like this or that.Simple question to all the sorc/sage players.

 

- WHY %60-70 of imp players are playin sorc OR %60-70 of republic players are playing Sage?

 

Give a honest answer. Then you will understand why this class needs a nerf.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but I am a big Star Wars fan and the Knights of the Old Republic games are two of my favorite games. When I played KotOR I went DS Consular (so force lightning was my staple ability) and in KotOR II i played a DS Consular / Sith Lord.

It is just the class I have always liked. I enjoy the idea of using political machinations to accomplish my goals, and that is the point of this class.

That is why my main is a Sith Sorcerer. At the same time, I have 1 of each class, and have all the Imperial characters to 30+ and all my Republic characters at 20+. I play them all equally well and don't feel that any are more powerful than the others, but I think skill plays a big part in that.

[justcallmetarzan]

The answer is simple:

 

NO ENERGY MANAGEMENT.

 

They can do any skills when ever they want.

 

REGEN IS ALWAYS AT THE SAME SPEED.

 

NO RESTRICTIONS ON SKILLS.

 

and

 

They can spam their main skill to proc everything else?

 

ROFL PROBLEM HERE?

 

They need a system like Snipers/Ops.

 

a DR on their FORCE.

 

You're kidding, right?

 

On a dps sage, there is (for all intents and purposes) no energy regen other than Telekinetic Throw - the spell, mind you, is not actually force positive - it just works out that way.

 

Suppose I'm at 400 (of 600) force. I channel a telekinetic throw. Force drops to 370. If all 4 ticks hit, that's 24 force (4% of 600). Add another 24 force (8 fps x 3 sec) and you get a total return of 48 force, raising your finishing force to 418. Now account for the cast time ((418-400)/3) and you can see that the ACTUAL regen from using Telekinetic Throw is only 6 fps.

 

Long story short, you will regen more force by NOT using Telekinetic Throw than from using it. And never mind if you miss a tick or get interrupted or miss or resist or absorb...

 

Other than that, 8 fps regen is NOTHING for a class with so many instant casts. Our only other alternative is to go hide somewhere and cast Noble Sacrifice, which gives us 8% force for 15% hp.

 

Whoop-de-doo??

 

Supposing 15k hp, this gives us 48 force at the cost of 2250 hp. Oh, and it also makes our force regen for the next ten seconds drop by 25% per stack. So for one stack, the force return is actually 48 - 10(2) or 28. For two, 96 - 10(4) - 2 or 54 (the -2 is for the 1.5s gcd where it's just 25% loss). At three stacks, 78; at 4 stacks, 100.

 

Used to its full potential, we can sacrifice 60% of our hp for a measly 100 force. Yay. Not.

 

Long story short, dps sages need to either gimp their dps a bit by holding back on using Telekinetic Wave, drop combat and use meditation, or die more often to regen their force. They do not have these huge unlimited force pools that people seem to think they do.

 

On the other hand, sage HEALERS have nearly unlimited force, but that should come as no surprise, given the way healing works in TOR.