The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[TetraCleric]

if u have 17k hp your not in pvp gear which means idc about u and u die even faster

 

id love to 1v1 cause id finaly break a 5k CL im sure

 

 

 

so ANYWAY

 

in pvp gear sorc's have the lowest HP with lowest dmg mitigation

 

any other sorcs who are probably bad wanna chime in?

 

What? I have full Battlemaster gear.

[BoDiE]

Another enthralling QQ thread. Awesome.

 

No nerf inc for sorcs. Get over it.

[wwkingms]

What? I have full Battlemaster gear.

 

first off bm gear is slightly above champion stat wise

 

i hav 4 piece BM witht he rest champ and without hunters boone i dont even break 16k so i fail to see how u break 17k buddy

[TetraCleric]

first off bm gear is slightly above champion stat wise

 

i hav 4 piece BM witht he rest champ and without hunters boone i dont even break 16k so i fail to see how u break 17k buddy

 

I use a columi relic over the BM relic, so maybe thats why? I get 720 health from that. Other than my relic, I have all BM.

 

But you know what, I always have the 5% end buff because I always run with a BH when I can, otherwise I'm at 16.5.

Edited February 11, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Megamaid]

I think you are correct. It's not the raw numbers of the abilities that are OP, it's the utility and survival package is too good for the rest of the package. I don't support an across the board numbers nerf, I would rather see the talents shuffled around until they can't all be grabbed into the super spec that never goes more than 20ish points into any tree.

 

Assassins used to do that, there weren't even balance problems with that hybrid spec and they nerfed it saying it was unintended and while they were at it added a 100% force cost to changing stances.

 

I think you are missing some of what I posted. There toolkit is the way it is because when you actually play a DPS sorcerer you will realize that it feels like a utility spec and not a real damage dealer. Granted the Hybrid spec the OP talks about gives the player more utility then they probably intended any spec to have and that should be adjusted. But in no way do i think the class is OP even with that extra utility. There are seen as OP because they stack amazingly well with any class and its own, and people automatically associate representation with OP or something is amiss.

 

When you take that hybrid spec you are embracing the role as a utility class sacrificing damage, and of the 31 point builds does more raw damage then the utility build the OP is taking about, and the Deep Madness hybrid build is the best for Damage, but even then it isn't as good as most other classes can do for damage. Even that build is largely a utility spec. Do the specs put up impressive numbers when you look at the scoreboard? Of course, Sorcerers do great AoE especially the hybrid builds, they can pad the WZ damage meters like no other, but something everyone should of learned from WoW or any MMO is that those numbers mean ****. That damage is mostly sustain low damage and AoE. If we could look at damage that actually matters and kills people, you would see Sorcerers are quite low. Burst wins, not sustained and even the bust Sorcerer build have low burst compared to other classes.

 

Bioware should adjust things to ton down Hybrid builds, such as making it so Wrath doesn't work with Force Lightning but only applies to lightning Strike, but buffs the damage by 30-40% so that LS actaully hits for a decent amount instead of being a tickle to anyone in decent gear. Crushing darkness should be instant or have a shorter C/D when specced into the talent that increases its duration. It would also help if Creeping Terror was worth a damn. Just shuffling talents doesn't fix anything aside from breaking hybrid builds.

 

This I will take exception to.

 

They are similar in terms of playstyle but the similarities end there.

 

The Merc abilities that can be used on the run are Heetseeker, which requires Tracer Missile debuffs to do damage and Railshot, which not only relies on a stacking buff to the next railshot to do damage but requires at least 1 TM debuff to even be used. That is at best a wash with the Sorc instant dots.

 

The Merc relies on RNG procs both in the form of TM crits to be able to maintain their rotation and to reset the cooldown on Unload.

 

If the Merc is allowed to sit and cast they can stack up a 10% damage reduction self buff that will last 10 seconds after the last TM is fired. That plus heavy armor is the sum total of their survivability and the heavy armor doesn't buy you nearly as much as you might expect. Shield alone would tip survivability to the Sorc and that's before getting into Force Speed, exploding bubbles, instant Whirlwind and all that package.

 

Something that I notice a lot of Sorcs seemingly missing is that both damage 31 point talents ignore armor. Does that mean they're worth giving up the crazy utilty of a hybrid spec? Probably not, but it's what Bioware expects a damage Sorc to do.

 

EDIT: Oh also I agree that one of the issues with the Sorc is how well they stack. Several Sorcs standing together are far far far more problematic than a lone Sorc. 4 Sorcs in a pile is a knockback and 5 second root on a 5 second cooldown.

 

I think you missed my point by comparing those two. The point was to show how week a full 31 point build of a sorcerer is when compared to a spec of another class, that has a similar play style. It is there to show why so many spec hybrid, full 31 point spesc just fail for sorcerers. And you also forget that Commandos also have hammer shot, a spamable not ammo/heat shot. It doesn't do a whole lot of damage. So many people don't realize that the Sorc/Sage is the only class without a resource free spamable damage ability. These abilities don't do a crap ton of damage as they aren't meant to, however they are incredibly useful, and i have killed plenty of people who try to LoS chasing while spamming hammer shot, and they are also extremely useful when you need to run away from a melee. All i have my sorcerer is a dot that does crap damage and shock that is on a C/D and requires a proc to even do decent damage.

 

Like i said earlier we see the class as OP because they are everywhere, and they stack well, but that is because they are really a utility class in PvP, and the only one that. Maybe that design is overpowerd in a game like this, and they should look into adjusting that, so that when they are Damage specced they fill more of that damage role. If that is the case they need a rework and not a nerf. Of course a rework would be hard as long as they keep with the stupid shared tree concept, especially when one of ACs is melee and they other is ranged, it rarely ends up being good for both classes, and sometimes they flat out feel out of place.

[mandrillagon]

Another enthralling QQ thread. Awesome.

 

No nerf inc for sorcs. Get over it.

 

Exactly. Nothing is stopping anyone from rolling a sorc themselves if they want to enjoy the most power and utility any class has to offer in the game. If anyone really thinks sorc are so overpowered join their ranks and enjoy the class for yourselves.

[syntxerr]

Exactly. Nothing is stopping anyone from rolling a sorc themselves if they want to enjoy the most power and utility any class has to offer in the game. If anyone really thinks sorc are so overpowered join their ranks and enjoy the class for yourselves.

 

I believe many people would discover that it is not that OP at all in many situations and that it actually takes quite a bit of effort to play it in such a way as to appear so. But the same applies to many other classes. And they'd figure out in how few seconds you can actually get torn apart by a single melee DPS if all you do is going with the imaginary 'I win lightning button' or standing still with the 'imba bubble'.

 

This aside though, there have been some good comments here and some less so in my opinion. What I do hope you guys consider is the healing spec, which doesn't offer most of the utility many complain about here but rather the basic abilities themselves without roots and snares attached. So please consider this as well when demanding a nerf of a key ability.

[goxwerd]

cmon..

 

Imo sorcs aren't really OP but to say they take effort and skill to play well in pvp dps is just silly.

 

 

There is a reason they are so popular and it isn't because they take a ton of skill to play well..

 

They are by far the best class when stacked with itself.. 2-3 Sorcs playing together running channel spec atm is pretty fotm and more powerful than any other 2-3 classes stacked together i have seen.

 

But i am unsure if its the class itself or the fact every game has 5-6 of them in it with 2-3 of them premaded together cheesing up the match.

[Xaehl]

I think sorc is the most balanced class and if anything some of the other classes may need a boost. Nerfing is always a bad idea.

[Rallic]

cmon..

 

Imo sorcs aren't really OP but to say they take effort and skill to play well in pvp dps is just silly.

 

 

There is a reason they are so popular and it isn't because they take a ton of skill to play well..

 

They are by far the best class when stacked with itself.. 2-3 Sorcs playing together running channel spec atm is pretty fotm and more powerful than any other 2-3 classes stacked together i have seen.

 

But i am unsure if its the class itself or the fact every game has 5-6 of them in it with 2-3 of them premaded together cheesing up the match.

 

3 mercs cross healing beats 3 sorcs all day long .

Sorcs heal/madness or lightning/madness vs healing merc premade merc wins

We have tested it and the premade we made to reroll on pub is a all commando group. It's all most unstoppable.

 

And why is it that most of the QQers can't tell what a sorc is vs a assassin , and they are not QQing over the sage and?

 

 

The lightning is why, they see that hitting around them. They take massive dmg and think it was the sorc. When it was one f tje other 8 guys hitting them they just forget about .

[TwitchingFiber]

No classes should be nerf'd. Just L2 play against them, or play a different game.

 

Love,

Me.

[Megamaid]

cmon..

 

Imo sorcs aren't really OP but to say they take effort and skill to play well in pvp dps is just silly.

 

 

There is a reason they are so popular and it isn't because they take a ton of skill to play well..

 

They are by far the best class when stacked with itself.. 2-3 Sorcs playing together running channel spec atm is pretty fotm and more powerful than any other 2-3 classes stacked together i have seen.

 

But i am unsure if its the class itself or the fact every game has 5-6 of them in it with 2-3 of them premaded together cheesing up the match.

 

I have said that three times in this thread and multiple times before, and part of the reason for that is they have great utility that almost everyone can use. There is no better classes then a Sorcerer to protect your ranged DPS with, and there is not better class than a sorcerer to allow the melee to stick to targets. They are by far the most useful class in a team environment, and that is because they seem to be designed as a utility class. No matter what spec you choose it is not a great 1v1 class like an operative or Marauder.

 

Are they OP because of that? maybe, But i insist that if design is the problem, than a nerf will only break the class, a fundamental redesign is the answer.

 

Like you said it probably isn't them being OP, its when you have a group of them that work together well. And it isn't just sorcerers/sages, the two ACs of Inquisitor and Counselor stack amazing too, especially when you use kinetic shadows to protect your sages.

 

Like everyone else though, i am sick and tired of going into a WZ and seeing half the team Sages/Sorcerers and the other half Commandos/Mercs. with a sprinkling of the other advance classes.

[Tumri]

A lot of what Megamaid is saying is true. Sorcerers typically do less single target damage while having a LOT more CC/Control/Utility in the hybrid spec I posted. In PvP however control and utility reign supreme in any team situation. The only PvP we have is team based PvP. This is a huge part of why they're overpowered in that spec. It's also true that Sorcerers stack well. 6x Sorcerers in a team means you might as well surrender if you don't have as many. You'll never be able to touch them.

[shaidarlol]

I think you are missing some of what I posted. There toolkit is the way it is because when you actually play a DPS sorcerer you will realize that it feels like a utility spec and not a real damage dealer. Granted the Hybrid spec the OP talks about gives the player more utility then they probably intended any spec to have and that should be adjusted. But in no way do i think the class is OP even with that extra utility. There are seen as OP because they stack amazingly well with any class and its own, and people automatically associate representation with OP or something is amiss.

 

When you take that hybrid spec you are embracing the role as a utility class sacrificing damage, and of the 31 point builds does more raw damage then the utility build the OP is taking about, and the Deep Madness hybrid build is the best for Damage, but even then it isn't as good as most other classes can do for damage. Even that build is largely a utility spec. Do the specs put up impressive numbers when you look at the scoreboard? Of course, Sorcerers do great AoE especially the hybrid builds, they can pad the WZ damage meters like no other, but something everyone should of learned from WoW or any MMO is that those numbers mean ****. That damage is mostly sustain low damage and AoE. If we could look at damage that actually matters and kills people, you would see Sorcerers are quite low. Burst wins, not sustained and even the bust Sorcerer build have low burst compared to other classes.

 

Bioware should adjust things to ton down Hybrid builds, such as making it so Wrath doesn't work with Force Lightning but only applies to lightning Strike, but buffs the damage by 30-40% so that LS actaully hits for a decent amount instead of being a tickle to anyone in decent gear. Crushing darkness should be instant or have a shorter C/D when specced into the talent that increases its duration. It would also help if Creeping Terror was worth a damn. Just shuffling talents doesn't fix anything aside from breaking hybrid builds.

 

 

 

I think you missed my point by comparing those two. The point was to show how week a full 31 point build of a sorcerer is when compared to a spec of another class, that has a similar play style. It is there to show why so many spec hybrid, full 31 point spesc just fail for sorcerers. And you also forget that Commandos also have hammer shot, a spamable not ammo/heat shot. It doesn't do a whole lot of damage. So many people don't realize that the Sorc/Sage is the only class without a resource free spamable damage ability. These abilities don't do a crap ton of damage as they aren't meant to, however they are incredibly useful, and i have killed plenty of people who try to LoS chasing while spamming hammer shot, and they are also extremely useful when you need to run away from a melee. All i have my sorcerer is a dot that does crap damage and shock that is on a C/D and requires a proc to even do decent damage.

 

Like i said earlier we see the class as OP because they are everywhere, and they stack well, but that is because they are really a utility class in PvP, and the only one that. Maybe that design is overpowerd in a game like this, and they should look into adjusting that, so that when they are Damage specced they fill more of that damage role. If that is the case they need a rework and not a nerf. Of course a rework would be hard as long as they keep with the stupid shared tree concept, especially when one of ACs is melee and they other is ranged, it rarely ends up being good for both classes, and sometimes they flat out feel out of place.

 

actual common sense, i can't believe it

[Darth_Ricky]

sorc is squishy, cos of that u get a few more things

 

but its fun thats why ppl play it and stay w/ it

 

any1 who thinks sorc isnt squishy or is only 1 button press class can **** lol u srsly dont know *** ur on about

 

ppl who own w/ sorc can own way harder w/ 1 button press class but u can still do good w/ sorc if u got skill & have FUN

[wwkingms]

HEY GUYS SORCS ARE FACEROLL BUT OWAIT

 

SNIPERS/GUNSLINGERS CAN DROP THEIR PORTIBLE COVER AND TURRET IN ONE SPOT AND DESTROY ANYTHING THAT DOESNT LOS

 

all while immune to interrupts and charges

 

 

but sorcs are op.. i mean they have to run away and use skill to kill but GRR

[Darth_Ricky]

In PvP however control and utility reign supreme in any team situation.

 

no, cc & burst dmg own in pvp. and sorc got both. O WAIT.. NOW THAT I THINK ON IT THEY DONT lol

 

nice try w/ the distract troll thread tho

 

one inc for your class im sure

[astrocanis]

HEY GUYS SORCS ARE FACEROLL BUT OWAIT

 

SNIPERS/GUNSLINGERS CAN DROP THEIR PORTIBLE COVER AND TURRET IN ONE SPOT AND DESTROY ANYTHING THAT DOESNT LOS

 

all while immune to interrupts and charges

 

 

but sorcs are op.. i mean they have to run away and use skill to kill but GRR

 

 

Actually, I play one and they are over the top.

[wwkingms]

Actually, I play one and they are over the top.

 

play wat

[Tumri]

I haven't seen non-sorcerers defending the hybrid spec. On the flip side I've seen some Sorcerers saying they're probably overpowered with the hybrid spec but fine or semi-weak with the 31-point specs. I've also noticed that a large percentage of people defending the hybrid spec aren't typing in complete sentences and have a lot of censored words in their posts.

[Cournel]

I have a level 50 sorc and a level 50 marauder. I can tell you right now that everyone of you sorcs are saying "Don't nerf my class because a marauder can destroy us anyway." You're retarded, yeah I'm resulting to flaming you for being retarded now, go figure huh? Sorcs have the most utility in the game:

 

CC:

Mezz: Whirlwind

Aoe Mezz: Static Barrier (Break it and it blinds you for 3 seconds)

Stun: Electrocute, Whirlwind

Aoe Root: Overload

 

Heal:

Dark Infusion (Only one that matters 5k-7k heals without being in heal spec)

 

Escapes:

Force Speed (On a joke cooldown)

 

Slows:

Force Lightning, Force Slow

 

Utility:

Static Barrier (Which when you cast it you'll probably be safe for 15 seconds when someone finally attacks you and finally breaks well **** them right? Put another one up)

 

One if you're a sorc and are getting ***** by marauders you suck and I pray on you because you suck and don't know how to play your class properly. When you face a sorc that does know how to play the class and (yes they'll be hybrid specced) you're fighting the most unstoppable class in the game. Nerf is coming and I can't wait for it.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Cournel

[Nosaj]

No classes are overpowered, just stop complaining and get better.

[Cournel]

No classes are overpowered, just stop complaining and get better.

 

Are you raiding? Done any real end game pvping? Are you a battlemaster? No? Thought so.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Cournel

[YMIHere]

Sad but true. I rolled a sorc and am soloing heroic 2s with ease and sometimes a heroic 4 area. In pvp I just hop through acid and sprint through fire and love the 35m range when I'm in a shootout with other ranged classes that are limited to 30m range.

 

I assume you've started with the lightning tree. The extra range is nice, but when you get Wrath you'll probably want to switch to Force Lightning for the damage and Wrath procs.

 

The instant cast corruption dot is long lasting so I have no problem keeping stealth visible so I can cc them as I need to. The AoE Force STorm is so much better than death from above as there is no cooldown on it and it gives a chance to proc an instant cast of chain lightning. Dark Mending crits enough that I just need a cast or two and my health is fine.

 

Corruption DoT? Lets go with Affliction. I'm glad you find Force Storm so useful without a cooldown, no idea why the people you play against never bother to split up though. You might want to get more endurance, with 9 pieces of champion gear and the rest centurion or tionese I have 27% crit. If this Dark Mending spell is anything like Dark Infusion it'll crit for 4.4k and regularly hit for 2.5k, without the pvp healing debuff.

 

I sage sprint if really necessary but usually one of my many CC abilities is enough to give me breathing room as well as the 3.5k instant heal of my static barrier.

 

Sage Sprint? At least you got Static Barrier correct, I'm starting to see now why you didn't list any of the CC abilities.

 

I could go on and on how awesome I am finding this class. Playing a number of alts has helped me appreciate the power and ease I enjoy in both pve and pvp as a sorc. Truly playing a sorc is God Mode.

 

And here it is, god mode. Truly.

 

The thing about calling for a nerf to the class is why nerf it when anyone can be a sorc/sage yourself? Its not like you are barred from being the most powerful class in the game.

 

Yeah, sound advice. I suggest you actually play a sorc in any sort of meaningful way, or argue points instead of sensationalism.

 

 

I main a sorc, want to know a real problem? I can Static Barrier myself whenever I feel like it and if nobody hits me in seventeen seconds I can run up to a group and right-click the bubble off for an AoE blind on demand. Static Barrier goes right back on. I'm hesitant to say we have too much CC (because I haven't gotten another class to 50 yet), but I'd certainly say we have enough that we don't need a melee range Flashbang with a third of the cooldown.

 

There's a bit of exaggeration all over this thread, sorc fights have to last 12 to 20 seconds? Yeah, so long as the resolve bar doesn't exist.

[Nosaj]

Are you raiding? Done any real end game pvping? Are you a battlemaster? No? Thought so.

 

--QQ--.