The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Khadroth]

STOP THAT -_-.

 

 

Also..Has anyone ever thought to make Wrath proc for ONLY Crushing Darkness...Like the Assassins Raze only procs for crushing Darkness.

 

 

If Wrath worked like its AC mirror

 

-Hybrids lose the ability to instant Chain Lightning

-You lose all reasons to make a hybrid.

 

No you don't unfortunately. Chain Lightning only adds more dps in an aoe situation or when CD/MC are on cooldown since you can use it instead of disturbance. That still doesn't change the fact that the utility of the TK tree is great. Though you would decrease hybrid numbers with a change like this, it would not negate them.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Khadroth

[IcemanEXE]

Getting tired of reading posts like this. My biggest advice to anyone that starts screaming for nerfs and cluttering up the forums with useless posts is to basically wait until a proper ranking system is in place and see if (since the OP says Sorcs/Sages are overpowered) hundreds of sorcs/sages lead the ranks.

 

Also, there's a lot of players with ranging PvP skills in this game and when I PvP, I can't guarantee that I'll be able to kill a specific class every time just because my class is "meant" to kill that class due to class mechanics. It just doesn't work like that. A great Juggernaut can easily kill a Sorc/Sage if he/she knows what they are doing as can many other classes, trust me I've seen it. But people will continuously argue and bash other people about their skill in PvP and how they're not justified to make claims regarding a specific class especially if they haven't played it. So basically just refer to my first point and stop complaining until then.

[EternalFinality]

Sorcerers do not need to be nerfed at all. The only thing Bioware needs to do is rearrange the talent trees to disallow overpowered hybrid specs from making the class far more powerful than the devs intended.

 

Do you know what they call this? A nerf.

 

But yes, we all know it is certainly needed.

[chton]

ALERT: Read this -ENTIRE- first post before posting ANYTHING on this thread. Do not post vague generalizations. Respond to the points I actually made in this post. Do not join the long list of painfully stupid posts that had nothing to do with the actual content of the thread and everything to do with the title of the read.

 

 

Sorcerers do not need to be nerfed at all. The only thing Bioware needs to do is rearrange the talent trees to disallow overpowered hybrid specs from making the class far more powerful than the devs intended. Lightning/Madness hybrids cause far too much imbalance.

 

The main problem is Sorcs have hybrid specs that are far too effective and they get far too many perks from all trees.

 

"Lightning Barrier" - Gives 20% increased absorption to Static Barrier. Tier 2 talent. This needs to be far higher up the Lightning tree. Lightning Sorcs need this talent because of their need to stand still and leave themselves more vulnerable to damage. Madness Sorcs and hybrids do not.

 

"Electric Bindings" - Adds a 5 second immobilize to their 20 second knockback "Overload". Tier 3 talent. Again this talent is needed for a 31 point Lightning PvP build to be effective but for all other specs it's just a ridiculous amount of utility that they don't need. This needs to be moved up the tree.

 

"Wrath" - Force Lightning damage has a 30% chance to make your next cast instant and do +20% damage. This is the talent that allows hybrid Sorcerers to surpass the 31-point specs. This makes it insanely effective to build hybrid and use the proc for instant cast "Chain Lightning".

 

"Lightning Barrage" - Affliction critical hits have a 100% chance to cause your next "Force Lightning" to channel and tick twice as fast(10s CD). This talent gives further incentive to the hybrid Lightning/Madness build. In PvP it causes Sorcerers to have a surprising amount of burst. While this talent isn't a problem on it's own it does further the gap between hybrid specs and proper 31-point specs. It's nonsense to have this talent in the Lightning Tree when you consider that "Force Lightning" is Madness's main filler. Lightning spec is supposed to use Lightning Strike.

 

"Backlash" - Causes "Static Barrier" to apply a 3 second CC to surrounding targets upon breaking. Shouldn't be in the hands of hybrids. Period. This is only balanced in the hands of an incredibly immobile caster.

 

"Lightning Storm" - 30% chance on "Lightning Strike" to reset the CD of Chain Lightning and cause it to be instant-cast the next time you use it(10s CD). Essentially a second Wrath. Combine the two and you have a spec that can use instant-cast Chain Lightning with disgusting frequency.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Here is an example of a hybrid spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfcMMdRbZcrcRsMk.1

 

The obvious issue here is the fact that a Sorcerer using a spec such as this gets all the utility of both Lightning and Madness without sacrificing much.

 

A Madness Sorcerer is supposed to have some CC and a lot of Mobility due to a reliance on instant casts and DoT effects.

 

A Lightning Sorcer is supposed to have a lot of defensive CC and very limited Mobility due to reliance on hard casts.

 

The problem is that the hybrid spec has both the Mobility of Madness and the defensive CC of Lightning at the same time while also having greater damage than either spec.

 

This is the amount of utility a hybrid has:

 

Strong Bubble

5s Immobilize attached to a 20s Knockback

Unlimited Regen through the combined talents of both specs.

Spammable Instant-Cast Chain Lightning(This spell hits VERY hard and is an AoE)

3s Immobilize attached to the end of Bubble

Abnormal mobility through DoTs and a 20s Dash

Incredible Burst that surpasses the burst that either of the full 31pt specs can come close to outputting.

The best PvP AoE damage in the entire game through DoT spam, Death Field, and Chain Lightning.

Instant Cast Whirlwind and a 2-second stun attached to breaking Whirlwind.

Self-Healing

 

 

What I'm trying to emphasize is how stupidly well the bottom halves of the two trees synergize. It's obviously not intended and needs to be changed without breaking the full 31 point specs. Bioware needs to move the incredibly good talents further up the tree and move some of the weaker talents down to the lower tiers.

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I don't care if hybrid specs exist.

 

I care when those hybrid specs break the game by making a class disgustingly overpowered.

 

I'm not asking for an end to Sorcerer hybrids.

 

I just want the hybrids to not have access to the utility talents in Lightning so they're not so incredibly powerful compared to the 31-point specs.

 

In their current state they're overpowered in every way.

 

With this change people wouldn't feel stupid for NOT using a hybrid spec because right now anyone using a 31-point build is gimping themselves as Sorcerers.

 

With this change people would still have the option to spec hybrid and do the same damage, they just wouldn't have disgustingly overpowered utility from BOTH trees.

 

It's incredibly stupid for hybrids to be like some ultimate fusion of two specs that's far more overpowered than either 31-point build. This isn't Dragonball Z.

 

Lose to a sorc huh? No need to read the whole thing, been said before and it's still the same. I understand you don't like losing and you feel the need to call for a nerf. Sad to see it's the common reaction.

[Tsubodia]

It wouldn't bother me so much if he hadn't posted a hashed out hybrid spec. There are much stronger sorc hybrid specs than the one he has claimed is super awesome.

[shaidarlol]

i love this thread, because the OP is a marauder, and apparently there is a consensus on the pvp forums that sorc/sage are overpowered and marauders are underpowered.

 

his screen shots completely proves that an apparent underpowered class can and does outperform a supposed overpower class only points to 1 thing: sorcerers/sages are indeed balanced. because if it were not that case, there is no way no matter how good the player is when piloting an underpowered marauder, they can realistically never outperform an overpowered sorcerer.

 

thank you OP

[EternalFinality]

i love this thread, because the OP is a marauder, and apparently there is a consensus on the pvp forums that sorc/sage are overpowered and marauders are underpowered.

 

his screen shots completely proves that an apparent underpowered class can and does outperform a supposed overpower class only points to 1 thing: sorcerers/sages are indeed balanced. because if it were not that case, there is no way no matter how good the player is when piloting an underpowered marauder, they can realistically never outperform an overpowered sorcerer.

 

thank you OP

 

God I love how bad Sorc logic is.

[shaidarlol]

God I love how bad Sorc logic is.

 

yes terrible logic.

[XenonParsec]

ALERT: Read this -ENTIRE- first post before posting ANYTHING on this thread. Do not post vague generalizations. Respond to the points I actually made in this post. Do not join the long list of painfully stupid posts that had nothing to do with the actual content of the thread and everything to do with the title of the read.

 

After reading that, I looked for you data parse from your combat log, proving that hybrid specs cause "imbalance."

 

Nope, no data here.

 

So then I looked at how would change our trees to be "balanced." I noticed you want a shield that has been tested and conclusively known to absorb about 3500 damage, to be "much higher" in the tree. Then you want a 5s root to be a 31pt talent.

 

Stopped reading there.

 

Take your own advice regarding your parameters for posting. You gave no data, and basically made ridiculous suggestions because you're not very good at pvp. Another worthless "i suck at video games so please handicap the class i like the least" post. I'll add it to the pile here.

Edited February 10, 2012 by XenonParsec

[infamousNate]

So much wrong with this post. Marauder/sents get a stun huh? A channeled stun??? Also learn the difference between a RANGED stun and a melee stun. Big difference. This is why Blizzard didn't give mages hammer of justice or kidney shot and kidney shot required setup...Ranged stuns that are in other mmos (that don't fail) last half as long are subject to diminishing returns and usually require a proc to do.

 

Healing? What about it? If you are healing anyone other then yourself on a scoundrel/op you are screwed. 1) you can't spec into those talents and be viable. 2) healing other people screws you out of stealthing which = dead. 3) Why the hell would you heal other people on a melee spec when you self kite yourself from any target lol.

 

Merc/Commandos? Sorry they don't have stupid hybrid specs where they have infinite force, and they don't throw bubbles on people which is the best INSTANT heal in the game, since there is no purge/dispel in this game. They also don't auto CC people when their shield breaks. They also have to cast their soft CC.

 

The hybrid spec gets a ranged stun, a knockback (that you can talent to root but most skip it for more dmg), a INSTANT soft CC, and when their shield breaks it automatically cc's people around them (plays for you).

 

LOL at you comparing bubble to defensive cooldowns as well. All the other heal hybrids as dps suck at healing. Hybrid spec excels at it (bubbling other people and having way too much resource efficiency for offhealing), is the best CC class in the game, can burst with anyone with procs, and is the hardest class to bring down. Not that it can't be done, it just takes way too long due to all the stupid CC you get as hybrid.

 

I suggest actually trying to play other classes before you talk about them. I played sage in beta. The hybrid spec was OP as hell, boring as hell and it needs to go. You can't be good at everything as dps. Sorc/sage is. The other hybrid was nerfed (shadow/assassin) and wasn't nearly as powerful.

 

If Bioware/EA doesn't do the same to the sage/sorc hybrid is just makes them look incompetent and biased.

 

OH HI THERE MRS. TROLLWOMAN.

 

Melee stuns? CRAZY! a melee class that requires to be in melee to use skills...i know right? UNDER POWERED!!!!.

 

Healing. the point of healing is to heal. some idiots. such as yourself, magically think that that sorcs are the only one with a heal that can heal other people+ themselves.

 

as for either your ignorance or stupidty (im guessing the latter) a hybrid spec CANNOT HEAL. our big heal is 3secs for ~2.5-3k heal . if you cannot DPS down that fast..then you have other issues.

 

Infinite Force? please do tell me which spec is giving me inf force. i can assure you that its not hybrid.

 

CCs? the bubble CC is 5-8m on break. if you cannot break in from range...then you need to learn to play. all classes have a 10m+ attack. not to mention only 3 classes are true melee... a hybrid specced sorc gets 5CCs:

Bubble - 50% resolve

KB+root +100% resolves (KB is 50%, but the root will add 50%)

Stun 99% resolves

Soft stun 100% resolves

Force slow (6 sec CD)

(anything else i missed?)

 

lets see..

Mar:

Force leap - 2sec root+interupt

Force Choke -4 sec stun

Force slow scream **** (2rage, no CD)

Other Force leap (forgot name)

 

OHMYGOD!!! Sorcs have 1 extra CC..OP OP OP!!!!!

 

as for playing other classes, i got a 41 jugg...so yea theres that.

 

 

Wanna try again?

[Terrestrial]

The last poster is exactly, precisely correct. I heartily endorse his message.

 

What I find amusing is that the OP puts something out there for discussion and then flames those who disagree or where he/she feels they are off message.

 

Let this one die.

 

 

Having said that, I really wish I had options in pvp. I'd love to be full madness (and of course lose most of my mobility talents) if I had some really strong counterbalances. For example, add some kind of Drain Life ability (beyond the meagre Death Field/Parasitism) to mitigate against the loss of Bindings or Backlash. The DoT at the top of the tree is virtually worthless.

 

Alternatively, lets make Thundering Blast something you really would fear in PvP. How about a blowback or stun and some crit modifiers so that if its coming you better do something to interrupt it.

 

Do that, and I'll gladly consider some modifications to Wrath CL. Personally, it isn't my favorite thing to be a hybrid. It is, however, an unfortunately necessity.

[EternalFinality]

lets see..

Mar:

Force leap - 2sec root+interupt

Force Choke -4 sec stun

Force slow scream **** (2rage, no CD)

Other Force leap (forgot name)

 

OHMYGOD!!! Sorcs have 1 extra CC..OP OP OP!!!!!

 

as for playing other classes, i got a 41 jugg...so yea theres that.

 

So much bad info here. You have no idea what abilities Marauders have, do you?

 

Force Choke stuns for 3 seconds and is channeled.

 

"Force slow scream" - I think you're thinking of a Jugg ability.

 

The other force leap is a talent in the tree no one plays, has a 10m maximum range, and does not root or interrupt.

 

Sentinels/Marauders have exactly 2 CCs, and one is channeled.

 

all classes have a 10m+ attack

 

Fun fact, Marauders have exactly one - Force Leap. It moves you directly next to the target.

Edited February 10, 2012 by EternalFinality

[RichtheLionheart]

/signed

 

This class has way too much going for it.

[mufutiz]

kinda sad how long it takes them to fix the class.

 

it is pretty much Bright Wizard 2.0 all over again.

[Lethargo]

While I concur with the OP that hybrid sorcs have a bit too much CCs I would also like to encourage him to no longer exploit the Pure Shockfrozen Water bug. If you really have to brag with your 11 commendations in a huttball and it shows 100k healing, everybody should by now know what's cooking. (75k Healing Commendation, as well as 2,5k and 5k single heal Commendations) It undermines the sincerity of his concerns about Sorcs.

 

Getting 7 or 8 commendation with a damage dealer is still good, gonna give him that.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Lethargo

[infamousNate]

So much bad info here. You have no idea what abilities Marauders have, do you?

 

Force Choke stuns for 3 seconds and is channeled.

 

"Force slow scream" - I think you're thinking of a Jugg ability.

 

The other force leap is a talent in the tree no one plays, has a 10m maximum range, and does not root or interrupt.

 

Sentinels/Marauders have exactly 2 CCs, and one is channeled.

 

 

 

Fun fact, Marauders have exactly one - Force Leap. It moves you directly next to the target.

 

oh only 1 10m+ you say?

http://www.torhead.com/ability/cRZ1G4W/force-scream

[Petrus]

What you did is like complaining that you won a duel but it was too hard so the other guy needs a nerf. Pathetic.

 

/agreed

Edited February 10, 2012 by Petrus

[Turn-XGundam]

i don't play sorc/sage there fine except for that force speed that thing needs to be nerfed lol.

you destroy there face and they run away

i am gonna keep saying it again and again. most of the time sorc/sages are guarded and then there tank will taunt you. a sorc/sage will not go down when its guarded and you're being taunted.

 

hack you can guard a sniper/gunslinger and taunt there enemies. from the enemies point of view sniper/gunslinger will be invincible.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Turn-XGundam

[Hamatula]

if a marauder isnt beating a Sorc the player is bad, just the way it is atm.

[Lavath]

Honestly, we all should just pvp without any gear on and with only our main weapon. I'm sure that would also be imbalanced though...

[mandrillagon]

Very well thought out and insightful post. The problem the community faces with getting sorc/sage class nerfed is the very fact that a large portion of the community is a sorc/sage or has a main as one.

 

Operatives were a minority class so pretty easy to lobby for that class to be brought into balance. Sorc/sages have the largest player population out there to troll threads with their theorycrafting, learn 2 plays, etc.

 

 

This is going to be a tough battle to bring balance to the most blatantly overpowered class in any MMORPG right now. Sorc/Sage are even worse than Bright Wizards were in Warhammer Online pre nerf.

[sithgrizley]

CCs? the bubble CC is 5-8m on break. if you cannot break in from range...then you need to learn to play. all classes have a 10m+ attack. not to mention only 3 classes are true

 

Ok, the sorc bubble has 3500 hp give or take a couple hundred. If any melee class tries to break that from safe distance they lose. Period.

 

So from what you're telling me you think it's intended that Sorcs just counter melee, and ranged, oh and tanks too. It's not their fault they're paper to your scissors.

 

Get real. Shield breaking at range is not practical for most classes.

 

melee... a hybrid specced sorc gets 5CCs:

Bubble - 50% resolve

KB+root +100% resolves (KB is 50%, but the root will add 50%)

Stun 99% resolves

Soft stun 100% resolves

Force slow (6 sec CD)

(anything else i missed?)

 

 

Ahhh, I knew some Sorc would try to claim balance through resolve. Even if it worked, which it doesn't. That just means you cycle your CC on multiple targets. That's far far too much CC/utility for any class.

[Kozzmozz]

I'm new to pvp warzones for a couple of days now.

 

The first thing i thought was : **** , f*ck sorc, they need to be nerfed, im sick of the CC'ing, slowing down, where i am not able to hit 70% of the time my enemy sorc due to CC. I got one skill : unleashed to unstun me, with a CD of 2 min. basically he can CC me most of the time.

 

Then i came to check on the forums and read this. Flame cause i'm new to it, but my first impression was : nerf sorc, and i'm sure im not the only one out there.

 

P.S The thought that I SOLELY thought of sorc and not any other class should be an indication me thinks.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Kozzmozz

[sithgrizley]

It wouldn't bother me so much if he hadn't posted a hashed out hybrid spec. There are much stronger sorc hybrid specs than the one he has claimed is super awesome.

 

There are a number of hybrid specs, mostly because the lower down talents for Sorcs are far too good. I didn't look at his spec, but I think he hit the highlights of a lot of the abusive talents in his spec.

 

Bioware has gone hunting hybrid specs and classes that are slightly out of balance. Sorcs are both abusive while hybrid specs and out of balance. An intelligent Sorc would ask for reasonable rearangement of their talent trees that wouldn't affect a 31 point spec but will eliminate or tone down a hybrid spec. That's the best chance to avoid a numbers nerf that just turns the Sorc into a CC*****.

[TheRFC]

Do you see ANY other class in any of the games doing as well as me? - In 1-2 of the games they do about 70% as much as me.

 

Skill plays a large part in PvP. The people I played against had an extreme skill disadvantage. The fact that I'm good doesn't change the fact that Sorcerer hybrid specs are far too powerful. The fact that I was able to do about 400k damage, get 9 medals, and take 0 deaths in a game should tell you how much of a skill gap there was.

 

Oh my ...

 

I'd agree that a hybrid DPS/Healer shouldn't be able to do 300+K damage and 300+K healing ...

 

But the ego? Eesh ...

 

I smash that score every match, friend.

 

It's my mad skillz, yeah?? No. I mash buttons. There is NO skill in this game. It's experience and to do consistently well - work-rate.

 

Thanks for dropping by.