Knockbacks are OP as there is no availiable counterplay

[DarthVarrak]

What on earth are you talking about? They get 3 free casts while the opponent is snared, if you're going to sit there and tell me that 3 free spells, 4.5 seconds worth of gcds, is negligible then i'm not sure what to tell you other than you're wrong.

 

You are right on this part. However, we were not talking about casted offensive spells, we were talking about using the 5 second root to cast instant defensive abilities (shield, 1.5s gcd), item buffs (no gcd that I know of), and heals (1.5-3 second cast times). If we were talking about offensive abilities, you only get one freecast (due to root breaking on damage) before your opponent has the ability to charge, vanish, or LoS you.

[Diomades]

You've stated several times they are instant kills, I know you mean they have potential to be but I'm being nickpicky since you've always mentioned them in the scenario of being instant kill.

 

EDIT: You just stated againt they're instant kills

 

Mixing me up with somebody else bud.

[RealAeiouy]

You say that as if lining someone up with a ledge free of obstacles is tantamount to brain surgery. I'm sorry you find a straight difficult to understand or picture.

 

This game isn't very difficult to begin with. All I'm asking for is some sort of intelligent counterplay to knockbacks.

 

You act like avoiding it is hard.

[Elshagan]

You're quoting two different people as if they're the same person. HS was deemed overpowered as it allowed players to kill people in too short a time. One cd to take me from full to empty is not too short a time?

 

I will appologize for the quoting of two different people, your names seemed to be the same. (Suffer from sight issues)

 

Also I still want to know how it's able to kill you in any other situation than a specific one. Come on tell me how it kills you in lets say in Ilum. If it can't kill you in Illum, Alderaan Civil war but ONLY in Voidstar it sure ain't Overpowered since it requires a specific situation to occur which is that the Voidstar progressed to the bridge area. In the ones I've played that rarely if ever happens.

[deltaminus]

You act like avoiding it is hard.

 

You act like avoiding insta cast moves is easy.

[Rokhu]

Knockbacks are a legitimate concern, theres just too many trolls in love with the Star Wars license and "new car smell" of the game to see the balance issues in pvp. All these narrow minded douche fanboys attacking the posters personally instead of debating the issues are morons.

 

IMO making knockbacks add way more resolve would be a decent start. Theres nothing you can do at all against them to react. For stuns/mezzes/slows you have a counter that you must learn to use when and where. The point is there is a counter for each, of course no ones asking to have 1 counter per ability, just the fact that you can counter it is enough. With knockbacks theres nothing at all, which would probably lead to looking at resolve as a starting point.

 

I still think its ridiculous bioware gave knockbacks to so many classes. The pvp in this game is a disaster, its just that everyone is blinded by their love of Star Wars and can't see how broken pvp overall is, from the gear system to the balance issues.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Rokhu

[Venilator]

Yeah, I'm totally lying about being detectable in stealth. Nobody has ever been detected in stealth rather easily in this game. You caught me.

 

 

 

Using SEVER Tendon early is a bad idea, because it has a fairly substantial cooldown for a slow.

 

Infiltrator only increases your effective stealth level, it doesn't make you invisible. And many specs simply cannot afford to take it. Even with it, you can be detected easily.

 

And calling me bad doesn't make you right. It just makes you look like a brat.

 

 

You are lying.. I play an OP and i have never been pulled out of stealth. You get pulled out of stealth because you do not have Infiltrator which btw.. increases Movement by 15%...

 

 

Let me teach you a mechanic here... When it says "Increases lvl of stealth" that means when you are in the area your Stealth counts as lvl 53.... The only way you are going to be caught and pulled out of stealth is if you walk through the area a BH or trooper stealth detection which they have to plant in the area they think you are in.

 

ALSO you are invisible to a player... They cannot see you until you attack them or they drop an AOE. SO please keep lying to everyone on the forums about how stealth works...

[Elshagan]

You are lying.. I play an OP and i have never been pulled out of stealth. You get pulled out of stealth because you do not have Infiltrator which btw.. increases Movement by 15%...

 

 

Let me teach you a mechanic here... When it says "Increases lvl of stealth" that means when you are in the area your Stealth counts as lvl 53.... The only way you are going to be caught and pulled out of stealth is if you walk through the area a BH or trooper stealth detection which they have to plant in the area they think you are in.

 

ALSO you are invisible to a player... They cannot see you until you attack them or they drop an AOE. SO please keep lying to everyone on the forums about how stealth works...

 

What he said since I mostly play as a Tankasin I don't even have the Increased Stealth level and I'm rarely pulled out of stealth unless I attack or walk right infront of their face which no sane person would do.

[AndantePhist]

I played warhammer online AND world of warcraft... there were plenty of knockbacks in WAR Online, and I learned and adjusted since I was used to wow.

 

 

I have no issues with knockbacks... you learn to anticipate them and try to have them knock you back in a position where it isn't too disadvantageous for you.

[deltaminus]

I will appologize for the quoting of two different people, your names seemed to be the same. (Suffer from sight issues)

 

Also I still want to know how it's able to kill you in any other situation than a specific one. Come on tell me how it kills you in lets say in Ilum. If it can't kill you in Illum, Alderaan Civil war but ONLY in Voidstar it sure ain't Overpowered since it requires a specific situation to occur which is that the Voidstar progressed to the bridge area. In the ones I've played that rarely if ever happens.

 

In Huttball it can be an instakill into the fire/poison. In Ilum it can be an instakill off a cliff. It's not just limited to Voidstar.

 

Civil War and Huttball both share the issue of getting knocked off of a ledge and the trip back up the ledge is never direct. This greatly favors ranged classes, both in terms of the people knocking people back and the ones getting knocked back. Operatives get screwed in so far that they don't have a leap, knockback or pull.

 

I'm simply asking for an option, something I can do when someone uses a knockback... instead of being forced to eat it no matter what.

Edited February 4, 2012 by deltaminus

[Diomades]

I will appologize for the quoting of two different people, your names seemed to be the same. (Suffer from sight issues)

 

Also I still want to know how it's able to kill you in any other situation than a specific one. Come on tell me how it kills you in lets say in Ilum. If it can't kill you in Illum, Alderaan Civil war but ONLY in Voidstar it sure ain't Overpowered since it requires a specific situation to occur which is that the Voidstar progressed to the bridge area. In the ones I've played that rarely if ever happens.

 

I don't agree with the sentiment that knockbacks are overpowered. I wouldn't go that far. I think that in their current state, knockbacks are extremely powerful and that it is not unusual to see knockback pingpong going on - somebody being knocked around by two or more individuals with knockbacks.

 

In games like Huttball, knockbacks can make or break the game. A team with several people that have knockbacks will more easily beat a team without, as the team without hasn't got an unstoppable way of preventing somebody getting to their cap.

 

In the Voidstar, people can get knocked off of bridges which results in instant death.

 

In Alderaan, it's not as pronounced - but a well-timed knockback followed by CC can be the difference between capping a point or not. However, knockbacks won't make or break an Alderaan game like it will a Huttball game.

 

I don't think the Knockback itself needs to be nerfed, I think it's ability to be chained with other CC's needs to be nerfed. You should not be able to get knocked back 3 times in a row as you can at present. Knockbacks are a powerful thing, and I think removal of them would undermine the classes that need them to be used defensively. I think increasing the resolve on them that only one knockback could be chained with one CC before filling the resolve bar makes sense (after all, it seems to be the norm with most other classes control, two CC's and a target is CC immune).

 

They are a tactical advantage, it's just that their power is not reflected in the resolve they give. For an ability as powerful as a knockback, it should give the player it is being used against more chances at survival or the ability to overcome than it does at present. And I think an increase on the resolve it gives will prevent issues like chaining knockbacks or chaining knockbacks with multiple CC's.

[Venilator]

You act like avoiding insta cast moves is easy.

 

You can avoid not being Knocked off the bridge by keeping someone from gaining the angle to pitch you.

 

 

You know since KB is a direct line push from the location they are viewing.. So either you run in the middle or deserve to get pitched.

[deltaminus]

You are lying.. I play an OP and i have never been pulled out of stealth. You get pulled out of stealth because you do not have Infiltrator which btw.. increases Movement by 15%...

 

 

Let me teach you a mechanic here... When it says "Increases lvl of stealth" that means when you are in the area your Stealth counts as lvl 53.... The only way you are going to be caught and pulled out of stealth is if you walk through the area a BH or trooper stealth detection which they have to plant in the area they think you are in.

 

ALSO you are invisible to a player... They cannot see you until you attack them or they drop an AOE. SO please keep lying to everyone on the forums about how stealth works...

 

Negative. I play concealment, I specced for improved stealth. I am not invisible. Other players can still see me in stealth if they are too close to me.

 

This thread is about knockbacks and the balance surrounding such, not about operative. If you feel so passionately about stealth and stealthers, please make a thread about it.

[SirPayne]

Knockbacks are basically a 1-shot ability with RNG element (chaotic positioning). Using it at maximum efficiency it either puts you off combat longer than any stun (one could count that as cc too) or it has 1-shot character.

 

Having such abiltity as AOE makes it even worse. Such powerful ability must be single target only.

 

And what with the pointless discussion about counterting stealth? Stealth does not do any damage, nor does it cc you, nor does it kill you. It's a gap closer and on a whole different set of abilities.

[Diomades]

You are lying.. I play an OP and i have never been pulled out of stealth. You get pulled out of stealth because you do not have Infiltrator which btw.. increases Movement by 15%...

 

Let me teach you a mechanic here... When it says "Increases lvl of stealth" that means when you are in the area your Stealth counts as lvl 53.... The only way you are going to be caught and pulled out of stealth is if you walk through the area a BH or trooper stealth detection which they have to plant in the area they think you are in.

 

ALSO you are invisible to a player... They cannot see you until you attack them or they drop an AOE. SO please keep lying to everyone on the forums about how stealth works...

 

The way stealth works with effective stealth level is that you are more difficult to detect - not impossible to detect. Somebody with an effective stealth level of 53 will be more difficult to detect than somebody with an effective stealth level of 50, but they are not impossible to detect. Even somebody that has popped Sneak (giving them 9 more effective levels of stealth, if I remember right) is still detectable, but with much more difficulty.

 

It is entirely possible to be spotted before you have attacked somebody. Go duel a friend and stand in front of them in stealth. Slowly move closer. I guarantee that they'll eventually see you at a fair distance.

[Venilator]

Negative. I play concealment, I specced for improved stealth. I am not invisible. Other players can still see me in stealth if they are too close to me.

 

This thread is about knockbacks and the balance surrounding such, not about operative. If you feel so passionately about stealth and stealthers, please make a thread about it.

 

 

WRONG. They will not see you unless they are the class that has stealth detection like a Darkness Assassin/op/scoundrel or BH/Trooper who is dropping their drones. No other class/spec has stealth detection. SO lie some more please.

 

 

Yes this is a thread about an ability that has no problem being whined about by players who happen to be Ops who seem to be claiming that anything their class lacks is OP.

 

 

BTW did you know using COVER stops things from charging you... isn't that wonderful that Snipers have an ability that Juggs and Marauders do not have a counter too... Oh wait their has to be counters to everything just not what the Agent class has...

[Diomades]

BTW did you know using COVER stops things from charging you... isn't that wonderful that Snipers have an ability that Juggs and Marauders do not have a counter too... Oh wait their has to be counters to everything just not what the Agent class has...

 

The counter to not being able to charge them is walking up to them.

 

Since, y'know, they're stationary. :3

 

And then they knock you back!

[Venilator]

The way stealth works with effective stealth level is that you are more difficult to detect - not impossible to detect. Somebody with an effective stealth level of 53 will be more difficult to detect than somebody with an effective stealth level of 50, but they are not impossible to detect. Even somebody that has popped Sneak (giving them 9 more effective levels of stealth, if I remember right) is still detectable, but with much more difficulty.

 

It is entirely possible to be spotted before you have attacked somebody. Go duel a friend and stand in front of them in stealth. Slowly move closer. I guarantee that they'll eventually see you at a fair distance.

 

 

i have /danced ontop of the Gun Glowie in Alderaan Warzone in stealth in front of a Jedi Sentinel and a guardian..... The didn't find me... guess why? Because stealth is hard to detect....

Edited February 4, 2012 by CommunitySupportEN

[Xsorus]

Knockbacks in Warhammer Online - Usually on fairly long cooldowns belonging to Heavy Tanks, Few Exceptions include the Squig Herder and Shaman. There were others available but the primary user of Knockbacks were things like Iron Breakers and Knights, BO's, Blackguards ect ect.

 

Knockbacks in SWTOR - Everyone has one, except Operative, Powertech... They don't cause hardly any CC immunity, I can be knock backed, 4 bloody times before I'm CC immuned, Most of them have low cooldowns and have Roots/Snares attached to them, that also don't work against resolve.

 

It's one thing to use them defensively, it's, another to get throw around like a damn ping pong ball.

[Venilator]

The counter to not being able to charge them is walking up to them.

 

Since, y'know, they're stationary. :3

 

And then they knock you back!

 

 

 

 

So you are saying that that an Sniper in Huttball on the second catwalk is okay to have an uncounterable ability? Seeing how they have full range of the ball area and you have to run around and be attacked by them the whole way as they plink you for 3k on snipe? I personally do not mind it because i have two pocket healers when i go PvP... =)

 

 

Also knockback works on those in cover =)

 

 

However, your view on how everything needs a counter is skewed. I cannot insta-kill you via knockback if it isn't voidstar...

[Diomades]

So you are saying that that an Sniper in Huttball on the second catwalk is okay to have an uncounterable ability?

 

Nooo, it's counterable... by walking! An ability every class has! :3

[Xsorus]

Nooo, it's counterable... by walking! An ability every class has! :3

 

Also by Stuns, or other snipers who go up marksman..

 

Or my personal favorite, Walking behind something.. *grin*

[AndrosX]

Position yourself well and knockbacks won't kill you.

 

By the way, following your logic, grapple is overpowered.. shall we nerf that too?

[Diomades]

Position yourself well and knockbacks won't kill you.

 

By the way, following your logic, grapple is overpowered.. shall we nerf that too?

 

Actually, being grappled into the Huttball spawn to instantly die while carrying the ball IS an issue, since it doesn't capture the ball even though you went flying over the capture point.

 

But that's less a problem with the ability and more a problem with being able to use abilities in the spawn.

[Treplos]

Range Dps totally counters knock backs if used correctly. There isn't a knock back in this game that hits you at 10m.

 

 

Perhaps I'll add - knowing which enemys can use knock backs on the bridge in voidstar can help counter knock backs.

 

I pretty much covered all this when I put murder on the list though

 

Knockbacks can be countered by movement speed buffs and gap closers. I agree that knockbacks are lame on huttbal due to the rng factor, since you can't possibly know where you're gonna land but throwing you down a level when you're ready to score is fun.

 

What about melee classes with no gap closers or mobility or counter knockback of any kind? What about getting stunned/mezzed then knocked back? The stun only needs to last for 1s-2s and your whole character is completely negated.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Treplos