Devs not answering for the Operative nerf

[deltaminus]

If you believe the only thing a operative was good for was killing someone before the end of a knockdown, obviously the class is not for you. If you believe that was right and fair, then the class is no longer for you.

 

I'm a level 50 Concealment Operative wearing almost full Champion set. I still do tons of damage, I still win 1v1 fights, I'm still specced into jarring strikes (because I know how resolve works). I'm still loving this class and it honestly was OP before the nerf.

Edited February 3, 2012 by deltaminus

[Shatosen]

+1, totally agree, OP. I tried my best to provide reasoned discourse and no response. What does it take to get feedback? Devs, tell me and I will do it.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=264160

Edited February 3, 2012 by Shatosen

[Stigas]

You're freaking nuts if you think Sorcs are balanced. At all. In fact, Ranged Hybrids in general (Sorcs, Mercenaries) have way too much utility/survival for the ranged damage output they can do.

 

It'll get better but I hope they open the lines of communication soon.

[Skuishe]

It's annoying listening to one trick wonder players whine cause there tricks no longer works. I suggest to every op/scoundrel that u look at every skill u have and your talents and who knows u might find something new that works just as good if not better.

 

No.. it's annoying to listen to people who make ridiculous claims, back them up with absolutely no hard facts.

 

This is a themepark mmo. It's not hard to know what every button on my completely filled up hot bar does, and the situations that I use them in.

 

We can heal, we can aoe mez, we can now stunlock, we can stealth. All of these are duplicated, if not duplicated better, but other classes except the stunlock (which is a different can of worms) and smuggle.

 

Pray tell me how we are any more a utility class than any one else. Go on. An apology for how stupid you sound when you post stuff like this would be appreciated as well.

 

To the sniper's point, yes we probably offer more utility than you. But you have to realize that your damage is much much more consistent, and easy to apply than ours. You should be posting higher numbers than ops even prenerf.

[McVade]

What do you want the Devs to say?

 

"Sorry, but instantly killing anyone you looked at if you could master 3 keybindings, knew how to pick up an expertise buff and knew how to use relics was, in our opinion, overpowered. Now that you can no longer kill 80% of the player-base before they can even react to you, we feel you're in a better place balance-wise."

Edited February 3, 2012 by McVade

[astrolite]

I wish I could bring some of you to geared premade games and laugh when you get torn apart and get left out of the game 50% of the time because of timed knockbacks or being focus fired out of stealth or "tapped" to keep you in combat. Operatives are mediocre now. Before we at least could surprise a geared person huddled with their team. Yeah, I can dominate poorly geared folks and do pretty decently in 1v1 against certain classes. When it comes to team play, we aren't that great.

[KraithFjorn]

To the sniper's point, yes we probably offer more utility than you. But you have to realize that your damage is much much more consistent, and easy to apply than ours. You should be posting higher numbers than ops even prenerf.

 

While it's true that snipers overall damage usually exceeded a Concealment Operative's prenerf (at least in my experience as a Sniper, others' may differ), they still couldn't compete with Operatives, who almost always had more kills, more healing (even if they weren't specced for it), and more medals.

 

Operatives need to realize that prenerf, their incredibly high burst damage, coupled with Jarring Strike and much more utility than a lot of pure DPS classes made the nerf BW implemented a necessity. It's not enjoyable in any way to be forced to stare blankly at my screen while an under-geared Operative takes away 60-70% of my health before I can even react.

 

Sure, I could use escape to get out of Jarring Strike. It didn't work all the time, and I usually had to still watch my character go through the animation of getting up before I could actually counterattack, at which point, my resolve bar wasn't filled and I could get Debilitated, and thus, I'm SOL. This experience wasn't exclusive to Snipers either.

 

It's probably true that this nerf has made DPS Operatives useless for Raids and Flashpoints, and they have my sympathy (and that's something BW should correct). But in regards to PvP? No, Operatives are still effective at 1v1s, still have great burst damage, and can certainly hold their own.

[KelbornX]

What most people fail to realize is that a Concealment specced Operative is a Stealth class. The whole point of a Stealth class is to pick a target, burst it down, and **** before someone else kills you. Key words: someone else, as in this isn't 1v1 duels but team based PvP.

 

I used to main a Rogue in BC WoW, and dabbled in Rogue PvP in RIFT, and it's the same concept: Rogue finds his target, Rogue engages his target and probably kills it, nearby <class x>, <class y>, and <class z> swoop down to kill Rogue while he's out of Stealth.

 

While yeah it sucks to be on the receiving end of that burst, that burst is really the only thing a DPS Stealth class brings to the table. It's the whole point of the class (or at least the spec).

 

Now a bit more on-topic: I'm fine with the 20% nerf to Hidden Strike damage. I admit that was needed. Reduction of the knockdown from Jarring Strike? Also not something I have an issue with.

 

My issue is with the fact that the 1.5 second knockdown now gives a full Resolve bar, and the fact that the blanket nerf to Acid Blade killed PvE DPS where Ops were by no means doing more dmg than intended.

 

 

 

@TaiRevant: Since you don't play an Op... mind stopping posting in the Op forums where you have no idea what you're talking about?

[Skuishe]

While it's true that snipers overall damage usually exceeded a Concealment Operative's prenerf (at least in my experience as a Sniper, others' may differ), they still couldn't compete with Operatives, who almost always had more kills, more healing (even if they weren't specced for it), and more medals.

 

Operatives need to realize that prenerf, their incredibly high burst damage, coupled with Jarring Strike and much more utility than a lot of pure DPS classes made the nerf BW implemented a necessity. It's not enjoyable in any way to be forced to stare blankly at my screen while an under-geared Operative takes away 60-70% of my health before I can even react.

 

Sure, I could use escape to get out of Jarring Strike. It didn't work all the time, and I usually had to still watch my character go through the animation of getting up before I could actually counterattack, at which point, my resolve bar wasn't filled and I could get Debilitated, and thus, I'm SOL. This experience wasn't exclusive to Snipers either.

 

It's probably true that this nerf has made DPS Operatives useless for Raids and Flashpoints, and they have my sympathy (and that's something BW should correct). But in regards to PvP? No, Operatives are still effective at 1v1s, still have great burst damage, and can certainly hold their own.

 

First of all I'll point out that I understand it's no fun to be able to be killed from full with no chance to react. However, I'd like to point out my disagreements with this post.

 

First of all, an under-geared Operative could NOT have been taking away 60-70% of your gear if you were already in champion type gear. Pre champion weps/200-300 expertise, my shoot firsts used to crit for about 3k prenerf.

 

Secondly, while a similarly geared operative COULD knock you down 60-70% before your knockdown, a sniper could frequently knock that same 60-70% and more off my health before i got back to them from their knockback if I didn't have dodge ready to go. This was balanced in my opinion, if I chose to jump a sniper without my tools available and ready to go, in an open area where I wouldn't be able to LoS him easily if things went wrong, I deserved to die because that was my mistake. In other words, a 40% health sniper vs a 100% health operative out of stealth and approaching was a pretty even fight.

 

Now against these same snipers, I don't have that same initial burst I can lay on them before getting booted away, but I still die just as fast once I am, and do even more mediocre damage when we can get back to them. That's why we think the nerfs were overboard.

 

Edit:

 

Also as an additional note, I know this may be beyond the scope of this discussion but I'd like to throw it in, why should a sniper expect to have equal footing against an operative that has opened on them? We don't expect to live if we're caught in the open getting shot at, especially in a team context. If you're in a spot hunkered down and alone, and an op makes it to you do deserve to die most of the time if an op makes it up to you, or at least have to give up that position and run away. That's the general glass cannon vs. stealth relationship.

 

I realize of course that it may not be how this game was necessarily designed, especially since true vantage points/ranged dps spots are difficult to come by on any map that's not huttball, but darn it it should be =) Makes everything much more exciting for everybody.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Skuishe

[KraithFjorn]

Secondly, while a similarly geared operative COULD knock you down 60-70% before your knockdown, a sniper could frequently knock that same 60-70% and more off my health before i got back to them from their knockback if I didn't have dodge ready to go.

 

This was balanced in my opinion, if I chose to jump a sniper without my tools available and ready to go, in an open area where I wouldn't be able to LoS him easily if things went wrong, I deserved to die because that was my mistake. In other words, a 40% health sniper vs a 100% health operative out of stealth and approaching was a pretty even fight.

 

Even against operatives, who I admit are decently squishy (albeit as squishy as snipers), Snipers can't reliably remove even 50% of an operative's health before he/she removes the remaining 40/30% of the snipers.

 

Once an Operative was done triple shanking my face-planted avatar, the only option I had was to 1) Blow all my defensive cooldowns (Dodge, Shield probe, and a Medpack if off cooldown), followed by 2) CC'ing the Operative (in which case, they usually escaped), 3) enter cover, 4) Unload.

 

For CC's, I could either use Flashbang or Debilitate. If I used Flashbang, an operative could always escape, restealth, and repeat his/her rotation with Hidden Strike like the operative did a few seconds earlier. If the op didn't escape, I could either attack him (removing the CC, and then the Operative just restealths, and does the rotation again), or run away. Maybe get to a healing buff or regroup with my teammates and hope the operative forgot about me... If I was lucky!

 

Debilitate obviously wouldn't allow for the option to run away (to short an effect), and once dbl wears off, the operative can rinse and repeat like before.

 

A Sniper's only hope to beat an Operative who opened up on them was to escape, cast defensive cooldowns, use flashbang, enter cover, debilitate as soon as flashbang wears off (so the Operative doesn't restealth, and rinse and repeat), use Adrenal and/or (usually "and") relic, hope to get a lucky string of crits.

 

That of course, is all assuming that the Operative doesn't have escape or any of his defensive buffs available, and that I have all of my offensive and defensive buffs available. In Other words, this situation was rare.

 

Also keep in mind, snipers don't get increased movement speed, stealth, or offheals. Sure, we might get less bursty, more consistent damage. But that's our only real advantage.

 

To be fair, that was when Sniper's had an extremely buggy cover system, which made any 1v1 engagement with a class using CCs annoying and not in our favor. Still though, even Sorcerer's give most snipers less trouble.

 

Also as an additional note, I know this may be beyond the scope of this discussion but I'd like to throw it in, why should a sniper expect to have equal footing against an operative that has opened on them? We don't expect to live if we're caught in the open getting shot at, especially in a team context. If you're in a spot hunkered down and alone, and an op makes it to you do deserve to die most of the time if an op makes it up to you, or at least have to give up that position and run away. That's the general glass cannon vs. stealth relationship.

 

Well, usually if I saw an Operative who was caught out in the open and "with his pants down" (so to speak), they would simply CC (flashbang, usually), restealth, and leave scotch free. Snipers have a hard time if they get caught in the open too. Our only hope rests on teammates though!

 

And, to be fair, you are right. If a sniper is "hunkered down" (a gross exaggeration for the record, since cover's useless outside of essentially being a self-root which gives us access to our most important abilities), he should be at a disadvantage against an Operative. And I honestly feel that post-nerf, the operative still has the edge in this kind of engagement. The only difference now is, I at least have a chance!

 

I do agree that Operatives did get over nerfed. From what I've seen, DPS Operatives are next to useless in any kind of PvE environment, which should be corrected ASAP. And (this is somewhat unrelated), Sorcerer's need a significant nerf in regards to the amount of CC and overall utility that class gets, which would probably help Operatives who feel like they're struggling in warzones. Otherwise though (and especially in an Operative vs. Sniper engagement), Operatives are solidly balanced.

[Skuishe]

Even against operatives, who I admit are decently squishy (albeit as squishy as snipers), Snipers can't reliably remove even 50% of an operative's health before he/she removes the remaining 40/30% of the snipers.

 

And, to be fair, you are right. If a sniper is "hunkered down" (a gross exaggeration for the record, since cover's useless outside of essentially being a self-root which gives us access to our most important abilities), he should be at a disadvantage against an Operative. And I honestly feel that post-nerf, the operative still has the edge in this kind of engagement. The only difference now is, I at least have a chance!

 

I do agree that Operatives did get over nerfed. From what I've seen, DPS Operatives are next to useless in any kind of PvE environment, which should be corrected ASAP. And (this is somewhat unrelated), Sorcerer's need a significant nerf in regards to the amount of CC and overall utility that class gets, which would probably help Operatives who feel like they're struggling in warzones. Otherwise though (and especially in an Operative vs. Sniper engagement), Operatives are solidly balanced.

 

I accept your point of views and experience. I am not a sniper player myself so I don't claim to be able to speak for how squishy you guys are in general. I will however, stand firm in my knowledge of a handful of snipers that consistently burst me down very low and kill me within seconds of me making it back to them. I don't know what extenuating circumstances may be causing this to occur, but I do know it happens. We hold regular dueling events on our server and in a wide open field, gunslingers consistently beat me, even before the nerf. I'm certainly open to suggestions to improve my play in that regard, but I warn you that it's extremely unlikely that I've missed a tool or procedure/counter considering the time I'd spent studying the matchup.

 

The whole hunkering down thing to be honest didn't have much to do with this game, it was more of an expression of what ideal class interactions should be, although I understand that in the modern themepark mmo where everyone has to be able to stand on their own and have a chance in 1v1, this will never happen (thanks WoW).

 

Finally I do agree with your final point. I don't want to make it sound like I think snipers are better than ops by any means. I thought prenerf the balance was pretty good, although obviously putting a BM geared op against a lesser geared sniper would be faceroll, although that wasn't a problem limited to snipers. Sorcs on the other hand. Bleh.

[CaptainInsano]

I Play a sniper, compared to me yes your a utility class.

 

Not really. You have 15% group mitigation and 2 knockbacks, not to mention 35m range. Operatives have stealth? If you consider that utility on a melee class, lol. It's more like a core skill that is required since Ops have no gap closer.

Edited February 4, 2012 by CaptainInsano

[Hamchuck]

My issue is with the fact that the 1.5 second knockdown now gives a full Resolve bar...[/i].

 

@KelbornX

 

No argument with the rest of your post except for this. JS now doesn't fill the resolve bar anymore, allowing for a real stunlock -- the kind people claim ops were doing pre-1.1.1. You can hit Debilitate when they're getting up from the opener and first couple of hits and take another 4 seconds to do damage.

[KelbornX]

@KelbornX

 

No argument with the rest of your post except for this. JS now doesn't fill the resolve bar anymore, allowing for a real stunlock -- the kind people claim ops were doing pre-1.1.1. You can hit Debilitate when they're getting up from the opener and first couple of hits and take another 4 seconds to do damage.

 

Gotcha. Didn't see the fix in the patch notes, and I haven't run a PvP spec since pre-1.1.1 (dedicated healer now). I just remembered everyone making a fuss about it.

[Sylriana]

It is frustrating. But generally you're taught in this field that when you make a large scale nerf to essentially avoid discussing the topic for a few days or weeks in order to let things settle. Both to collect more data on the changes and to allow tempers to fade, as week one discussions on the subject tend to be more emotional than rational.

[DarthRhaze]

+1, totally agree, OP. I tried my best to provide reasoned discourse and no response. What does it take to get feedback? Devs, tell me and I will do it.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=264160

 

Heh, nothing screams "I'm a chronic whiner" like complaining about WoW in your sig while complaining about TOR in your post. YOU are what kills games, not patches and balancing.

[Steamrolled]

What do you want the Devs to say?

 

"Sorry, but instantly killing anyone you looked at if you could master 3 keybindings, knew how to pick up an expertise buff and knew how to use relics was, in our opinion, overpowered. Now that you can no longer kill 80% of the player-base before they can even react to you, we feel you're in a better place balance-wise."

 

I want them to say;

 

Ok guys, we are looking into the matter. Calm down and dont unsub just yet. We are infact not complete *******. If your claims are true and we did in fact break the class we will try to fix it asap. Or nerf everything down to your level. Thanks for paying us monys.

 

Something like that ish.

[Zolaz]

Why would you nerf a class that few people play? Hardly anyone played an OP prior to 1.1.1. Now how many do you see? There is a reason for that.

[karcyon]

Why would you nerf a class that few people play? Hardly anyone played an OP prior to 1.1.1. Now how many do you see? There is a reason for that.

Meanwhile more and more Sorcs show up in WZs...

[Crawler]

Meanwhile more and more Sorcs show up in WZs...

 

we know that already from certain game...

[Killabee]

Why would you nerf a class that few people play? Hardly anyone played an OP prior to 1.1.1. Now how many do you see? There is a reason for that.

 

Exactly it was so over powered that not very many people played it.