Interested in tanking: Vanguard or Guardian and what is their feel?

[Junebugman]

I'm in between rolling a tank as a Vanguard or as a guardian. I keep hearing that Guardians can't hold aggro and Vanguards are the best tanks right now...but I'd like to hear advice from actual tanks. How does a Vanguard tank compared to a Guardian?

 

 

Edit: As a side note I was a very experienced Prot warrior tank during BC and Wotlk, but left right after ICC came out. So which of these tanks..or even a Shadow resemble the playstyle of a Prot warrior?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Junebugman

[Baxiepie]

Speaking for myself, I hate my vanguard gameplay. Its boring to watch and mind numbing to.play. if you go guardian, all of your fights will look like Vader's fight with Luke. If you go shadow, all of your fights will look like Darth Maul's fight with Qui Gon Jin. Don't worry about whats best in theorycrafting or the flavor of the month class. All content has been cleared with every class in the main tank role, so its a nonissue outside of those that like napkin math. Anybody with mmo experience will tell you both theorycraft and FOTM change from patch to patch. Find whats fun and interestimg to you, and be the best at it you can be.

 

 

 

Edit for spelling, touchscreen keyboard ftl

Edited February 3, 2012 by Baxiepie

[Junebugman]

Which tank did you use?

[Baxiepie]

Leveling all 3 at once at one level or another. Their playstyles are similiar, in that they're all melee classes, but I really cannot stand my Vanguard. Playing him is like watching a retarded gorilla try to breakdance. My Shadow makes each fight into a beautiful dance thats actually really fun to watch. More so than the Guardian, he's alright but doesn't have the utility of my Shadow.

[Grizm]

Once you get in the groove, the Shadow is a pretty dancer as mentioned. Twirling double bladed saber. Don't let the light armor fool ya, they have the abilities/talents to toughen up. Plus stealth tank, comon how cool is that? Huge potential for solo'ing flash points later and passing through areas while farming or chasing specific heroic quest targets without having to fight through everything.

 

I like my Vanguard probably because I like the Trooper. It's not as flashy as the Shadow but I like charging at stuff and firing lasers at it, never got to do that in an MMO before (if there are games out there that have classes like that I didn't play them.) My Vanguard already had his honey bunny healer companion pretty early, while the Shadow got stuck with Tharan repeatedly reminding him that he's a pacifist. But that's more of a solo and flavor consideration.

 

I haven't gotten a Guardian high enough to get a good feel for it, tanking wise.

 

It simply comes down to personal preference, either a class clicks with you or it doesn't. Like I'm not fond of the cover mechanic of the Smuggler/Agent so my Smuggler/Agent alts are collecting dust even though their stories are pretty fun.

[Junebugman]

Well what about these rumors I keep hearing about Vanguads being the best tanks currently because Guardians can't hold threat and Shadows not being able to survive AoE pulls?

[_gideon]

I have a 50 PVE tank specced vanguard and a baby guardian.

 

In terms of feel, the guardian is a WoW warrior right down to rage and the names of abilities (stack those sunders). The vanguard plays a lot like a vanguard in Mass Effect 2.

 

Guardians not holding aggro is a complete myth. The ones I've worked with do fine. Vanguards do get a 60 sec CD mortar volley that makes AOE trivial every other pull. Guardians get better survival CDs.

 

Edit: In terms of what it is like to tank in this game, I'd say TBC era WoW after a lot of nerfs to the heroics. The big difference is that almost every mob is ranged so your own movement and positioning will be tested more.

Edited February 4, 2012 by _gideon

[Baxiepie]

Guardians will be most like wow's prot-warrior. Their resource building and spending are very similiar. Its also why i find mine so boring, its what ive been playing for years.

 

Vanguards have a funky "the more ammo you have, the faster it regens" thing going on. They mostly come down to limiting your dps output and not blowing your load all at once so as to retain high ammo regen and thus higher sustained dps.

 

Shadows work on a resource bar that regens at a constant fixed rate (a talent in 4th tier of the tank tree will increase your regen by 30%) similiar to a wow rogue's energy bar. Their damage output is mostly centered around lining up procs and effect stacks (particle acceleration, harnessed shadows, etc) that will give the most benefit to a specific ability at a specific time.

 

Outside of instances, i find my shadow to be the most fun of the three to play. Stealth, a 60 second CC in case a single mob is by your quest objective, a vanish if you pull and don't feel like stopping to fight. Just so many more useful tools in their locker.

 

As to the rumors of Shadows having AoE problems, I can only say from my personal experiences that the pulls I've had issue with gave my Vanguard and Guardian trouble as well (the last pull before the final boss on Mandalorian Raiders, the 6 dog pull). Ran that on both my vanguard and shadow at level 22/23 (the drops in there require level 25 to equip, so i was probably a bit too low anyways). My shadow actually had an easier time than my vanguard because she could CC one before we pulled.

 

From other peoples reports, all content has been tanked by all classes with no noticable difference beween them other than who happened to be playing the charater that night. Anybody that tells you theres an issue is refering to numbers pulled from the nether regions of their buttocks and hastily scribbled on a napkin. Its a nonissue that gets brought up just so the theorycrafters can make forum posts and argue amongst themselves about whos math is "more better" Its all down to personal choice of playstyle and your understanding of the class mechanics, as well as your dedication to keeping your gear as good as it can be.

 

On that same note, keep in mind that most of these complaints arent coming from people playing tanks, but from people that go in with a guardian/vanguard/shadow that isnt spec'd for tanking. They see them throwing guard around and in tanking stance, so they assume theyre a tank. This is how shadows got a bad rep, as most of our main tanking talents are past the point people.would go with Kinetic Combat, so yes, a dps spec'd shadow makes a worse tank than a dps spec'd guardian or vanguard. Those saying guardians have threat issues are generally Herpderp, the noobdps legacy, that runs in at the start of a fight and blows all their cooldowns tryin to do l33t d33ps. Pull aggro once, its the tanks fault. Pull aggro twice, its the dps's fault for not slowing down when theyve already seen that they're pulling aggro. Every boss's enrage timer has been beaten with a guardian tank, their threat per second output is fine.

 

The only thing thats put me off about the shadow class, so far, is its had a harder time with the low level grind than the other two. 10 to 22 seemed to last forever, but its gotten a lot better the past 20.

 

Edited for spelling again.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Baxiepie
spelling and clarity

[_gideon]

A key shadow defensive ability has limited charges. A big enough pack could theoretically break this down quite fast. That's probably the origin of what you've heard about shadows.

 

I've never had the pleasure of grouping with a shadow tank but they seem to clear raid content the same as everyone else.

[Kitru]

A key shadow defensive ability has limited charges. A big enough pack could theoretically break this down quite fast.

 

It's not "theoretically"; it's "literally". With a Shadow Tank, don't expect your 8 charges of Kinetic Ward to last beyond the opening volley of an AoE pull. Without KW, Shadows have the worst mitigation amongst tanks; with KW, Shadows have the best (ignoring Force/Tech attacks which, thanks to Guard/VG vastly superior Damage Reduction generally makes them better at dealing with Force/Tech outside of a Shadow's use of Resilience thanks to Force/Tech attacks ignoring all of the stats that Shadows have better than the other tanks and only really caring about the stats they are, at best, roughly on par for and, at worst, the worst for).

[ururururu]

I have a vanguard & juggernaut and enjoy the vanguard quite a bit more. aoe aggro is a lot easier, and being able to pull mobs in helps a lot. also, its nice having 4 meter, 4-10 meter, and 30 meter abilities. lots of flexibility.

 

the animations aren't the best for vanguard. it's offset by having some of the coolest looking armor in the game.

 

both tanks are viable. imo strengths:

- vanguard aggro is better. pull. more dps in tank or dps stance (guessing as there are no combat logs). close or long range.

- juggie defensive cooldowns are better. leap to friendly target is nice.

Edited February 4, 2012 by ururururu

[MrFong]

Pros of each class:

 

Vanguards/Powertechs:

- Slightly higher overall mitigation

- Less spiky health bars

- AoE/multi-target threat

- Range

- Lightning guns

 

Guardians/Juggernauts:

- Defensive cooldowns

- Lightsabers

 

Well, there you go.

[Fordel]

If you are familiar with WoW, then a Guardian is basically your warrior IN SPAAAACE. Specifically your TBC warrior, with AE threat issues and carpel tunnel.

 

 

Vanguards are TBC paladins minus holyshield (they gave that to shadows) and the self healing (also gave that to shadows). They generate AE threat effortlessly and are far more forgiving and straightforward in groups. Even simple things like being able to pull with Mortar Volley as a Vanguard. It's just such a nice threat buffer AND herding ability.

 

 

 

Another way to look at it:

 

Guardians (and Shadows) are somewhere between being a Scalpel and a Rapier. There is some finesse and finagling involved.

 

Vanguards are somewhere between a Cudgel and a Sledgehammer. We are a blunt object, to be used as such. Which isn't to say we don't have our own tricks, we do... but we are by far the most direct in application.

[Baxiepie]

As to the Shadow Kinetic Ward issue, I still say its a nonissue. On paper, the charges will run out if youre surrounded by a big enough group. In reality, the only time ive found a group big enough to burn through all the charges was in an outdoor heroic quest when i accidentally tab targetted 2 groups of six. It can happen, yes, but its not going to happen often enough or be significant enough to let it affect your choice of tank or choice of class.

 

Edited for spelling & clarity

Edited February 5, 2012 by Baxiepie

[Sogar]

As to the Shadow Kinetic Ward issue, I still say its a nonissue. On paper, the charges will run out if youre surrounded by a big enough group. In reality, the only time ive found a group big enough to burn through all the charges was in an outdoor heroic quest when i accidentally tab targetted 2 groups of six. It can happen, yes, but its not going to happen often enough or be significant enough to let it affect your choice of tank or choice of class.

 

Edited for spelling & clarity

 

Really?

You either aren't looking at your buffs or underlevelled or lying.

Some groups of 3-4 can take care of these charges in a matter of seconds no matter what. It all depends on the numbers of attacks they pull out. Even some elites alone can make it happen. It is nowhere as a non issue for AoE mitigation (even with high defense). Some groups won't pop them, some will and you will still survive "easily" but the fact that one tank mitigates less damage against groups whereas the others don't is stupid.

[Baxiepie]

I'll give you an example of a six mob encounter. Tell me how its too much on you.

 

 

Assuming you're talking about trash and not boss encounters. Say a group of 6, 2 normal, 2 silver, 2 gold. Mindmaze 1 of the golds, dps burns the two normal, stunlock the tanked gold while they burn 1 of the two silvers, hold the silver and gold while each is burnt in turn, then break CC on your last gold target. If you want to be extra sure, pop deflection at the start while youre holding 3. Theres not enough hits to burn through all 8 charges for any significant length of time.

 

Edit for spelling, touchscreen ftl

Edited February 6, 2012 by Baxiepie

[Malaetas]

I like my Powertech (yeah I know it's empire vs jedi/republic), feels like I'm playing a super-hero. Jumping around throwing punches and shooting fire everywhere. Love it.

[FrowningMirror]

Recast on KW is really pretty quick, i often spam it as soon as i hit 6 charges though lol.

[Baxiepie]

I like my Powertech (yeah I know it's empire vs jedi/republic), feels like I'm playing a super-hero. Jumping around throwing punches and shooting fire everywhere. Love it.

 

I'd probably have stuck with it if the troopers animations were as awesome. Instead of rockets and jetpacks and flamethrowers, we got a different colored clump that comes from the gun barrel while the trooper squats down.

[Malaetas]

I'd probably have stuck with it if the troopers animations were as awesome. Instead of rockets and jetpacks and flamethrowers, we got a different colored clump that comes from the gun barrel while the trooper squats down.

 

I played a vanguard before switching factions (mainly to play with RL friends), and while i prefer using a rifle and I like stock strike (esp the sound)... BH is just better animation wise.

[Inarai]

Really?

You either aren't looking at your buffs or underlevelled or lying.

Some groups of 3-4 can take care of these charges in a matter of seconds no matter what. It all depends on the numbers of attacks they pull out. Even some elites alone can make it happen. It is nowhere as a non issue for AoE mitigation (even with high defense). Some groups won't pop them, some will and you will still survive "easily" but the fact that one tank mitigates less damage against groups whereas the others don't is stupid.

 

http://db.darthhater.com/spell.aspx?id=1142

 

Just off the top. By upping your defenses, you increase the odds of not getting hit in the first place, letting your initial charges last through the cooldown.

 

That's merely the beginning of it. This is something which can be DEALT with. And frankly your assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with you cannot possibly have a valid viewpoint is arrogant to the point of ridicule.

[ounkeo]

The Vanguard feels more like the traditional tank and spank when you take into account how range-tastic the game is. You basically plant yourself and tank and occassionally manuever. With a guardian, you end up putting in 2 times more effort to do anything. The cooler animations don't make up for the playstyle of running between 4-6 mobs and picking them up.

 

They both can tank. The Vanguard simply has the better all around utility through range and CD and on demand AOE and the playstyle ensures that you aren't wasting time running in between cooldowns.

 

Keep in mind that SWTOR is very range based game. The encounter's (instance and world)so far I've experienced tend to very biased against melee.

[Mac_Garen]

I've only started tanking with a BH, but my main is a sage healer and I'll testify some of the comments here.

From a healer's perspective, Vanguard tanking is way easier.

It isn't a skill thing, it is just the talent tree provides a lot more mitigation to vanguards.

 

With a guardian, you end up putting in 2 times more effort to do anything. The cooler animations don't make up for the playstyle of running between 4-6 mobs and picking them up.

 

Hit the nail right there.

Life is harder for both the Guardian tank and the healer.

It can be fun most of the time, but it gets old quick.

[ninjashadowdark]

I've only started tanking with a BH, but my main is a sage healer and I'll testify some of the comments here.

From a healer's perspective, Vanguard tanking is way easier.

It isn't a skill thing, it is just the talent tree provides a lot more mitigation to vanguards.

 

 

 

Hit the nail right there.

Life is harder for both the Guardian tank and the healer.

It can be fun most of the time, but it gets old quick.

 

I know vangurd tanking is easyer but Does that mean gurdians wont get invited into raids ... Because some prefer Vangurd over gurdians for tanking ?....It seems people are forced to pick who they want to play as tank can people just pick who they like :/.

Edited March 14, 2012 by ninjashadowdark

[Cleet_Xia]

My main is a sage healer- and vanguards do have better mitigation talents than guardians. Or perhaps, guardians are not skilling all their mitigation? But the best advantage to vanguards is that they don't leap out of healing range at the start of almost every fight. And they don't follow mobs behind objects that will LOS the healer.

 

It's mostly a problem with the way Guardians and Shadows are being played. Not the class or it's abilities- but the players themselves not learning how to be a good tank. I'm leveling a Guardin tank right now- because I have the most difficult time grouping with them as a sage healer. And Guardians have a problem holding aggro when the are melee DPS in the group.

 

The best I tank I've grouped with yet was a shadow, for no other reason than they were able to retake aggro as fast as they lost it. A lot of tanks have tunnel vision- and just focus on the biggest mob. When they need to be tanking ALL of the mobs.

 

There are a lot of people running around with 13/13/14 builds wearing dps gear, and calling themselves tanks. Eventhough it isn't a tank's job to actually kill anything- just to hold aggro, and mitigate huge amounts of damage. Yes you're going to lose aggro when your DPS bursts happen, DPS gear isn't going to change that- it's just going to make life harder on your healer.