If you rely on gear, you're not a PVPer...

[Olympic]

Everything is equal in this game. Everyone has equal opportunity to obtain the same weapons and armor as every other player. That right there is "fair".

 

The speed by which a person obtains it is an individual issue, not a game issue. Though this idea will go right over many heads.

 

The gap between different levels of gear should certainly be tuned to such a degree that higher level gear does give some level of "advantaage" stat wise, but should not be as such that it completely makes a lower level geared player have zero chance to compete. However, a new level 50 with mix matched gear SHOULD have an uphill battle against a Valor level 60+ with better gear. Not an impossible climb, but the advantage gear wise should have some limited factor.

 

One of the issues I see is that "war zone warriors" can't see past Huttball. To them that IS PvP, when to many of us, it is just a better grind for gear than questing mobs over and over. When you get into larger scale PvP in Ilum the gear difference gets smaller by virtue of numbers and teamwork. Focus on what can be done 1 vs 1 and you will always be pissed off, focus on what a team can do, happiness follows.

[deltaminus]

Apparently you can't read. Increased REGULAR stats are definitely not the same type of advantage when comparing an increase in expertise. If you think that, then there is no point in trying to convince you of that...

 

How is expertise not a regular stat? Oh right it's just as regular as the others doing what it must as it was designed to do. You seem to think that the way things where done in Warhammer is the be all and the end all, while the way things are being done here is in some way some sort of sacrilege.

 

You your self are indeed stating both had an increase in stats. They are not the same game, thus different stats have been increased. Hence if anything the only thing you don't seem to like is the fact that the stat is called Expertise as opposed to say Endurance or Armor etc, etc.

[Kissmylightsaber]

Think of it as a sports analogy. An elite athlete puts years into honing his skills and body to be uniquely suited to the particular sport which he endeavors. The Skill is just as important as his physique when it comes to dominating.

 

Physique = gear

skill = skill

 

The gear and the time invested to get said gear is akin to the years spent in the weight room and the track perfecting your physical dominance which goes hand in hand with your skill dominance.

[pondz]

All i hear is Nerf Nerf Nerf ....... I dont actually know what they going to do as I cant find any good info on it ? (links anyone?)

 

They could use this as a realy good opertunity , they dont need to nerf expertise or any pvp gear , all they need to do is bridge the gap .

 

Wouldnt flashpoints be a little more fun if you had a slight chance of an item dropping with a little expertise in it?

 

Wouldnt cratfing and the economy be much better is master crated items also had a % chance of expertise ?

 

im sure there are other ways to boost the game like this , im not saying give newly lvl 50's what took other time and hard work to earn , just let them earn it in a different way to make the divide between a fully equiped battlemaster/champ and a new lvl 50 that atm can barely get up and running on turning lvl 50.

 

Its going to happen anyway so use it as an oppertunity to boost many areas of the game rather than Nerfing.

[blackadda]

"reduciing the gear related power difference" is certainly open to interpretation. would i be shocked if that meant a PvP gear nerf? absolutely not, but it could mean other things.

 

Yeah like BETTER lowbie pvp gear would fit that goal without nerfing anyone.. while also keeping PVE raid gear out of PVP

 

dont know why anyone assumes its going to be a nerf to the high end stuff when a buff to the low end would close the gap without making PVE raid gear the way to go ...

 

Sounds like those who think its gonna be a nerf either have gear envy or want to PVE RAID for their "PVP" gear instead of PVPing to earn it.

 

Hidden agendas anyone ?

 

"Real" PVPers dont mind PVPing to earn their gear

Edited February 2, 2012 by blackadda

[AKfourtyseven]

They cant really nerf expertise without also giving the armour stat boosts in other areas since its worse than any of the PvE gear.

 

It would be a move to lose them a large number of players. Making it more consistent to earn your gear? That is a positive change, since everything being ruled by RNG is a horrible idea.

[Ancient_karp]

Think of it as a sports analogy. An elite athlete puts years into honing his skills and body to be uniquely suited to the particular sport which he endeavors. The Skill is just as important as his physique when it comes to dominating.

 

Physique = gear

skill = skill

 

The gear and the time invested to get said gear is akin to the years spent in the weight room and the track perfecting your physical dominance which goes hand in hand with your skill dominance.

 

Imagine if players in MLB got to use an aluminum bat after they hit 30 HR's.

 

Imagine if drivers in Nascar could get an Indy car after winning 5 races.

 

Imagine if players in the PGA got to use longer drivers after winning 5 tournaments and carry 20 clubs in their bag.

 

Rewarding the winners with gear (or other ability enhancement) only serves to allow the winners to dominate even more.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Ancient_karp

[Esaru]

+1

 

/5char

[Olympic]

I think the system would be better if there was just "gear". Not separated by PvE, PvP, just "gear".

[Fierystrike]

Evonne saying they want pvp to be about skill, gear is not greater than skill and I proved this last night when I hit 50 on my marauder and went in to warzones and held my own just fine. Just because you get wtfpwned doesn't mean it's a gear issue.

 

Second I enjoy getting new gear to hit for bigger numbers even if people's health goes up so it makes little difference. Playing people that have gear and are good as you means you will probably lose unless you get lucky.

 

Think about this, when you first hit 50 in order to pve you have to farm gear from dailies and get crafted gear before you can run hard modes unless you have the skill to complete these without by pushing your character farther then others with less. Same is true for pvp. Quit whining that you can't step into warzones against 50s like some can because these same people can do hard modes as a fresh 50 bu you can't.

 

Proof of this concept is looking at WOW and how some people struggled with heroics at the beginning of cata, so much so that they assumed them impossible while others breezed through them. Why because they can maxamize their dps, hps, tanking potential, and equal levels that require many lots of gear to reach.

[Darth_Philar]

Negative. Both players will never be equally geared. Both players will never be equally skilled. Both players will never have the same internet connection speeds. Both players may not be playing the same class. Both players will not start attacking each other at the exact same instant and will not use the exact same moves. ****, this game uses stats like Crit and Surge, they're both RNG and luck based... what exactly is so fair about that?

 

Herp derp go find another bridge to troll under.

 

I'm going to ignore your flaming and respond to the odd points you made above:

 

Equal Gear: Is required for actual PvP. Any system that gives one person a statistical advantage over another based on the character is NOT PvP. It is CvC.

 

Equal Skill: You are right, you cannot enforce equality in skill because that is based on the player, not the game. However, in PvP that is how the result is supposed to be determined. Two players enter, the best player wins.

 

Internet Connection: While this can be a deciding factor, it is not an intended one. This falls under the same category as a high wind during your stroke in a golf tournament or during your team's field goal attempt. Sure it sucks, but there are only so many things that can be done to mitigate it.

 

Equal Class: Offering playstyle choices in the form of classes does not remove player skill from the equation, in actually bolsters it in that you are free to choose a class that best suits your skill. However, this is of course a potential negative in that if the classes are not designed well they can create statistical advantages (see Equal Gear above).

 

Equal Start Time: This is primarily a function of skill and playstyle. A person who is good at PvP will know when to engage first and when to react to an engagement attempt. Starting each engagement at the same time is not a requirement for balanced PvP.

 

Equal Skill Usage: Knowing when to use an ability is the single most telling facet of a player's skill. Primarily because it requires tactical knowledge of his abilities, your abilities, and what is currently happening.

 

I think you may not understand my point. PvP is not possible if there are any statistical advantages available to some players but not others. Tactical advantages through playstyle and strategic advantages through team composition are all a part of PvP.

[Ahhmyface]

Imagine if players in MLB got to use an aluminum bat after they hit 30 HR's.

 

Imagine if drivers in Nascar could get an Indy car after winning 5 races.

 

Imagine if players in the PGA got to use longer drivers after winning 5 tournaments and carry 20 clubs in their bag.

 

Rewarding the winners with gear (or other ability enhancement) only serves to allow the winners to dominate even more.

 

Not all games are based on equality. Take poker, for example. You start equal, and various people fall behind or drop ahead.

[Jestunhi]

You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers.

 

Every pvper wants to have to run raids to get the best gear for pvp! The current system meaning that you get pvp rewards for pvping is awful, us pvpers demand to have to run pve instances to reach our characters max potential!

 

Every "actual" pvper anyway, anyone who disagrees is a carebear!

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jestunhi

[deltaminus]

Imagine if players in MLB got to use an aluminum bat after they hit 30 HR's.

 

Imagine if drivers in Nascar could get an Indy car after winning 5 races.

 

Imagine if players in the PGA got to use longer drivers after winning 5 tournaments and carry 20 clubs in their bag.

 

Rewarding the winners with gear (or other ability enhancement) only serves to allow the winners to dominate even more.

 

Imagine you where playing an mmoRPG where character progression is important to the people playing it. To tell me I can't have epic lewts because I'd prefer to kill human opponents all day instead of computer controlled mobs is a load of bull. If the player beating the computer AKA ezmode is getting items that will make playing against the computer faster and easier, why are the PvP players being told they can't have the same thing?

 

PvE players have boss drops, PvP players have bags. Both are RNG. So why is the OP troll asking to take away the nice stats from PvP players while letting PvE ppl keep theirs? It's because the OP is biased towards PvE.

 

You sound like you'd enjoy an FPS or Starcraft.

[Ancient_karp]

Not all games are based on equality. Take poker, for example. You start equal, and various people fall behind or drop ahead.

 

This is based on both luck and skill. A skilled poker player can limit the effects of luck but not remove them entirely.

[blackadda]

I see this as a hint they are going to BUFF low end PVP gear to be closer in stats to high end...

 

Afterall they are increasing the amount of centurion tokens which drop from bags... its likely they will also increase the amount of EXPERTISE that is on centurion and champ gear and "close the gap".. not nerf BM gear which has been EARNED.

 

Anything else just makes PVE raid gear stronger than PVP gear, which isnt happening....

 

 

They also doubtless have Valor lvl 70/80/90/100 PVP gear in the works to keep us PVPers subbing...

Edited February 2, 2012 by blackadda

[Olympic]

Imagine you where playing an mmoRPG where character progression is important to the people playing it. To tell me I can't have epic lewts because I'd prefer to kill human opponents all day instead of computer controlled mobs is a load of bull. If the player beating the computer AKA ezmode is getting items that will make playing against the computer faster and easier, why are the PvP players being told they can't have the same thing?

 

PvE players have boss drops, PvP players have bags. Both are RNG. So why is the OP troll asking to take away the nice stats from PvP players while letting PvE ppl keep theirs? It's because the OP is biased towards PvE.

 

You sound like you'd enjoy an FPS or Starcraft.

 

PvE minded people have always had a negative impact on PvP in any game I've ever played. They can't understand why if they can just stand and kill mobs they can't do the same to players.

[deltaminus]

 

Equal Class: Offering playstyle choices in the form of classes does not remove player skill from the equation, in actually bolsters it in that you are free to choose a class that best suits your skill. However, this is of course a potential negative in that if the classes are not designed well they can create statistical advantages (see Equal Gear above).

 

Classes aren't equal in this game. While there was counterplay to HS, sorcs speccing into a 3 second blind when their sheild pops, there is no counterplay available to knockbacks.

 

You want fair, go play chess. Oh wait, that game isn't fair either as it's biased towards the person who moves first.

 

I'm play an mmoRPG, I expect gear progression for my efforts just like anyone else, regardless of my playstyle. You on the other hand want to deny me that on account of the fact that I PvP and don't PvE.

[Srolo]

Nobody would be against expertise if they did it properly. A slight buff for PvP. As it stands now it's guaranteed that those with Champion and BM gear will wipe the floor with those without it. Gear should help, it shouldn't be the predetermined factor of who's going to win.

[Ahhmyface]

This is based on both luck and skill. A skilled poker player can limit the effects of luck but not remove them entirely.

 

That is not relevant. That is not my point. We are talking about equality. You play one round, one player gets ahead. This gives you more power the next round. Until eventually your opponent can no longer compete with you. This feedback cycle is precisely what the gear progression is in MMOs. Good play at an early stage gives non-skill-based advantages in new games at later stages.

 

Equality in sports is an illusion, and only is true at a weak level of abstraction. You may have the same number of players, but the entire point of building your team is to stack the deck with players to dominate your opponents, not to equal them.

 

I'm sick of analogies. Analogies prove nothing. They are a weak tool for arguments, and primarily intended to explain.

 

Who says MMO PvP is a sport? Why isn't it, say, a king of the hill style competition where the current winner had a defending advantage? There is no reason for it to be anything but what it is. You can ***** and moan about what "real" pvp is, but this is TOR pvp. And some people like it this way. I like having spec/build/effort being multiplied by my skill, and there isn't **** you can do about it. So deal with it, make bioware aware you wish this was a fps, and you and I can agree to disagree.

[Sinisterz]

I find this funny. Yes, most Republic are behind in gear and complain about Imps being OP due to all the shenanigans. If people took the time to notice, more people in full Champ gear are showing up in WZ. Republic are winning more as the weeks progress. Within 4-8 weeks the Imperials won't have an upper hand anymore. All it takes is patience and hard work. Even the most casual player will catch up in time.

 

I don't see why such a nerf to PVP gear is even needed. I'm a pvper and only came to this game to pvp. There needs to be some kind of benefit for pvping in SWTOR or it will just become a PVE raiding game.

 

SWG when to **** because of all the whiners. Didn't EA learn from Sony? They need to hold on to their cajones. All the carebear changes are making history repeat itself.

 

For the record, I am Repub.

[arsenate]

OP is dumb. Sure you need gear because going against a fully geared warrior is no fun with a weaksauce armor. I did go through the grind for reasonable gear and I think everybody should but still your op title is ..... NOT SMART BRO

[AKfourtyseven]

Nobody would be against expertise if they did it properly. A slight buff for PvP. As it stands now it's guaranteed that those with Champion and BM gear will wipe the floor with those without it. Gear should help, it shouldn't be the predetermined factor of who's going to win.

 

If they removed expertise entirely, gear would still be the pre-determining factor.

 

Somebody in green gear Vs somebody in blues. Somebody in blues Vs purples. Both times its obvious who has the advantage. The real issue with the PvP gear isnt what expertise does, its that gaining it depends entirely on luck.

 

In a MMO progression is normally gated by time primarily and luck as a secondary factor. In our current PvP system its the reverse and thats why it fails. Make progression more controllable and nobody has a right to complain about expertise because they will have a clear option of gaining it.

[Daedricshots]

OP is dumb. Sure you need gear because going against a fully geared warrior is no fun with a weaksauce armor. I did go through the grind for reasonable gear and I think everybody should but still your op title is ..... NOT SMART BRO

 

"people are getting gear easier than i did! ITS NOT FAIR"

 

lol

[deltaminus]

For all you people that want a strictly PvP game without the gear, there are a couple already out there and availiable. One is the 6v6v6 Warhammer game, and the other is Bloodline Champions.

 

It's funny because Bloodline Champions had what all of you are asking for, skill based PvP with no RNG and no supposed outside advantages. Guess what? No one plays it because there was no incentive. It was just a mindless grind, with NOTHING to look forwards too. And what where the last ditch efforts to save this game? A rune system similar to the one found in League of Legends, essentially character progression.

 

I want to keep my character progression. I want to be rewarded for my efforts. If you're telling me I can't have that because I PvP instead of PvE, that's a load of bull.