Darth_Philar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If they removed expertise entirely, gear would still be the pre-determining factor. Somebody in green gear Vs somebody in blues. Somebody in blues Vs purples. Both times its obvious who has the advantage. The real issue with the PvP gear isnt what expertise does, its that gaining it depends entirely on luck. In a MMO progression is normally gated by time primarily and luck as a secondary factor. In our current PvP system its the reverse and thats why it fails. Make progression more controllable and nobody has a right to complain about expertise because they will have a clear option of gaining it. Which is why they need to remove gear stats entirely while in Warzones. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltaminus Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Which is why they need to remove gear stats entirely while in Warzones. Problem solved. Which would remove the incentive to PvP in the first place. I bought this game because it's a mmoRPG, not because I wanted to play CoD. Edited February 2, 2012 by deltaminus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Which is why they need to remove gear stats entirely while in Warzones. Problem solved. lol That's a joke, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegathegreat Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'm going to ignore your flaming and respond to the odd points you made above: Equal Gear: Is required for actual PvP. Any system that gives one person a statistical advantage over another based on the character is NOT PvP. It is CvC. Equal Skill: You are right, you cannot enforce equality in skill because that is based on the player, not the game. However, in PvP that is how the result is supposed to be determined. Two players enter, the best player wins. Internet Connection: While this can be a deciding factor, it is not an intended one. This falls under the same category as a high wind during your stroke in a golf tournament or during your team's field goal attempt. Sure it sucks, but there are only so many things that can be done to mitigate it. Equal Class: Offering playstyle choices in the form of classes does not remove player skill from the equation, in actually bolsters it in that you are free to choose a class that best suits your skill. However, this is of course a potential negative in that if the classes are not designed well they can create statistical advantages (see Equal Gear above). Equal Start Time: This is primarily a function of skill and playstyle. A person who is good at PvP will know when to engage first and when to react to an engagement attempt. Starting each engagement at the same time is not a requirement for balanced PvP. Equal Skill Usage: Knowing when to use an ability is the single most telling facet of a player's skill. Primarily because it requires tactical knowledge of his abilities, your abilities, and what is currently happening. I think you may not understand my point. PvP is not possible if there are any statistical advantages available to some players but not others. Tactical advantages through playstyle and strategic advantages through team composition are all a part of PvP. Equal Gear : No point in playing if your toon doesn't become stronger than other people's toons. Equal Skill : The result in PVP is suppose to be determined by a multiple factors, gear being one of them....if you pigeon whole it to just skill then winning 1v2 and 1v3 becomes almost impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers. Actually, if you complain about gear, you are a carebear. REAL pvpers face smash their opponents regardless of the odds. Sorry sunshine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srolo Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If they removed expertise entirely, gear would still be the pre-determining factor. Somebody in green gear Vs somebody in blues. Somebody in blues Vs purples. Both times its obvious who has the advantage. The real issue with the PvP gear isnt what expertise does, its that gaining it depends entirely on luck. In a MMO progression is normally gated by time primarily and luck as a secondary factor. In our current PvP system its the reverse and thats why it fails. Make progression more controllable and nobody has a right to complain about expertise because they will have a clear option of gaining it. lol greens vs purples.....It doesn't seem like you actually read my post. I'm not complaining about expertise, I'm complaining about how it's implemented. Sure, the guy with the purples has an advantage in your scenario, but he's not GUARANTEED to win. Once again I will say, PvP gear should give an advantage in PvP. It shouldn't be the predetermined deciding factor of who's going to win. As it stands now, it IS a predetermined factor. The people with it will win every time against those without regardless of the scenario. People are using it as a crutch and are afraid of what may happen if they're not able to stomp on others all the time. I'll get my gear in time, I'll take my blows and I'll die my way into my PvP gear. Just because I do that though, doesn't mean I, or many others approve of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohraTon Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If this is anything other than adding some sort of starter set with around 300 or so expertise for new 50's to purchase for wz comms then I can see many players leaving. BW's policy so far is to just nerf the good stuff than to buff the crap, so if they buff the level 40 gear to include expertise or add a new level 50 set with expertise, it'll be a surprise. Its much more likely that they will continue with their usual rubbish and nerf the cent/champ/battlemaster gear. After spending most my time in the game getting to BM just to have the stats ripped away to the point where PvE gear is better and I should have been raiding will be it for me here. Buff the crap that's there to close the gap between nothing and PvP gear, do not bring the PvP gear down onto the crap stuff's level. I think we need more information on how they plan to close this gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Equal Gear : No point in playing if your toon doesn't become stronger than other people's toons. Equal Skill : The result in PVP is suppose to be determined by a multiple factors, gear being one of them....if you pigeon whole it to just skill then winning 1v2 and 1v3 becomes almost impossible. Which would remove the incentive to PvP in the first place. I bought this game because it's a mmoRPG, not because I wanted to play CoD. Here in these two responses do we find the root of the problem. PvE is about progression and your character getting better. PvP is about tactics and strategy and your skill getting better. You folks are PvE players at heart who want your PvE reward scheme to be applied to PvP. You want to grind and progress and you want that grind and progression to pay off by giving you more power than people who have not grinded or progessed as much as you. You want time=power instead of skill=power. There is NOTHING wrong with that... in PvE. There is EVERYTHING wrong with that in PvP. PvP is NEVER an RPG. That is IMPOSSIBLE! If you have RPG in your "PvP" (which this game does), then you do not have PvP, you have CvC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srolo Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Here in these two responses do we find the root of the problem. PvE is about progression and your character getting better. PvP is about tactics and strategy and your skill getting better. You folks are PvE players at heart who want your PvE reward scheme to be applied to PvP. You want to grind and progress and you want that grind and progression to pay off by giving you more power than people who have not grinded or progessed as much as you. You want time=power instead of skill=power. There is NOTHING wrong with that... in PvE. There is EVERYTHING wrong with that in PvP. PvP is NEVER an RPG. That is IMPOSSIBLE! If you have RPG in your "PvP" (which this game does), then you do not have PvP, you have CvC. You just spoke blasphemous words. How DARE you actually address the problem and tell them something they don't want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Then farm the gear like the rest of us.... If this turns into kiddie wow where everything is given to players i will not be here much longer... Reason i didnt play wow is because if u work and put in the time on this game like others u get rewarded, im not paying a sub for a game with a concept of giving free gear to players so they can compete, ill go play black ops if this happens... I am however an advocate for making lvl 50 expertise armor mods only to put in current gear to be more competitive... 'I worked so hard farming nubs pre-patch, I deserve it and if my gear kills you, L2P' Post-patch, it's way harder to win matches to complete your dailys. So, looks like the hardcores had it eaiser than the casuals. Brilliant. Go back to Black Ops you won't be missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solonius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I had to grind and face people who were better geared than me, knew the strats, and had more expertise. Why should the next set of people not have to do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solonius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Which would remove the incentive to PvP in the first place. I bought this game because it's a mmoRPG, not because I wanted to play CoD. #Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 PvE is about progression and your character getting better. PvP is about tactics and strategy and your skill getting better. PvP is NEVER an RPG. That is IMPOSSIBLE! If you have RPG in your "PvP" (which this game does), then you do not have PvP, you have CvC. Ahh but lets be honest, its not the fault of the playerbase for wanting a working progression system when it was Bioware who decided thats what we would have. If you put in a progression system, it better work. They have tried to make PvP mirror PvE, if thats the case, make it do so. Honestly, if they had not removed the blue lvl 50 PvP set this wouldnt even be an issue. I can not understand why they did. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient_karp Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Let's remember that MMORPG means "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game". There's nothing in that name that demands that we get awesome gear by farming each other in Ilum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srolo Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I had to grind and face people who were better geared than me, knew the strats, and had more expertise. Why should the next set of people not have to do the same? Because you're selfish and want the system to continue to be flawed so you in return can insta-gib people out of frustration for what you went through instead of allowing it to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Here in these two responses do we find the root of the problem. PvE is about progression and your character getting better. PvP is about tactics and strategy and your skill getting better. You folks are PvE players at heart who want your PvE reward scheme to be applied to PvP. You want to grind and progress and you want that grind and progression to pay off by giving you more power than people who have not grinded or progessed as much as you. You want time=power instead of skill=power. There is NOTHING wrong with that... in PvE. There is EVERYTHING wrong with that in PvP. PvP is NEVER an RPG. That is IMPOSSIBLE! If you have RPG in your "PvP" (which this game does), then you do not have PvP, you have CvC. Actually, you are only partially right. People need a payoff. Whether that's all the items on a corpse or just the tears of the victim. WoW made PvP a pve grind, treadmill and all. It doesn't have to be, but there does have to be a payoff....otherwise we would all play BF3 instead. "Skill" has never had much place in MMO pvp. Tell yourself different if you must, but it doesn't. Go FPS or Strats if you really want to test skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaEkotte Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I just want pvp to be a test of skill as much as possible, not gear. If you consider classes using thier AoE movement attack (troopers concusion ability) to blast a player into a trap in Huttball then yes Huttbal is just as much a test of skill as is it gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient_karp Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Actually, you are only partially right. People need a payoff. The payoff in ANY game is fun. If you get pixelated loot, that's a plus. Keep in mind that there are far more popular games out there than MMO's. Edited February 2, 2012 by Ancient_karp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Ahh but lets be honest, its not the fault of the playerbase for wanting a working progression system when it was Bioware who decided thats what we would have. If you put in a progression system, it better work. They have tried to make PvP mirror PvE, if thats the case, make it do so. Honestly, if they had not removed the blue lvl 50 PvP set this wouldnt even be an issue. I can not understand why they did. At all. The first step to solving a problem is to identify it. I have identified the problem as this: CvC fans want grinding and progression in their CvC PvP fans want skill, strategy, and tactics in their PvP CvC fans hate PvP PvP fans hate CvC Bioware creates a CvC system and advertises it as PvP PvP fans are upset and call for changes Some changes are made and now PvP fans and CvC fans are mad because the result is an unholy abomination that neither side likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Here in these two responses do we find the root of the problem. PvE is about progression and your character getting better. PvP is about tactics and strategy and your skill getting better. You folks are PvE players at heart who want your PvE reward scheme to be applied to PvP. You want to grind and progress and you want that grind and progression to pay off by giving you more power than people who have not grinded or progessed as much as you. You want time=power instead of skill=power. There is NOTHING wrong with that... in PvE. There is EVERYTHING wrong with that in PvP. PvP is NEVER an RPG. That is IMPOSSIBLE! If you have RPG in your "PvP" (which this game does), then you do not have PvP, you have CvC. False. You may prefer pure skill-based pvp. That's fine. But to claim that it's the only kind is moronic. There are plenty of games designed like that, go play one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solonius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Because you're selfish and want the system to continue to be flawed so you in return can insta-gib people out of frustration for what you went through instead of allowing it to improve. Hardly would call it selfish, would just rather not hear people complain about gear imbalance when its fully capable of being overcome with a little effort and planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient_karp Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hardly would call it selfish, would just rather not hear people complain about gear imbalance when its fully capable of being overcome with a little effort and planning. The grind from 1-60 valor is more than "a little work" if you do it as intended. You're also at the mercy of the RNG, which defies any real planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 For all we know PvE gear will just be the new determining factor. As long as there are statistical differentials between players, there will be an uneven playing field. It isn't going to go away in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The payoff in ANY game is fun. If you get pixelated loot, that's a plus. The pvp isn't fun (Illum, Tat or the 3 WZs). In fact, it's mostly broken. And you are wrong. People need a payoff or they don't participate. By the same token, you are saying we could remove loot from FPs/Ops and people would still play them for the fun of it....which is a borderline retarded statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrdude Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Rofl on thread talking about pvp skill in a mmo without gear. Play Halo if you want to level the playing field the most (ie player hardware is mostly the same, gear is mostly the same, classes are the same, abilities are same, etc). Mmos are fundamentally different. Gear is a differentiator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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