MMOs - Where they all went RIGHT

[TeoHTime]

So there's a recurring mantra on these forums that classic MMOs were 'hard' and required 'effort' to progress through, and all modern content including SWTOR and anything based around WoW is 'for casuals' who 'want everything for free'. I like to chuckle to myself when i hear these clichés. They're quotes from people who never really elaborate on what they mean by 'hard', but it's not difficult to read between the lines. So this thread is about why we shouldn't be giving credit to old (pre-WoW) MMOs for being 'difficult', and why the genre is progressing in a good direction.

 

What do people mean when they make a claim like "doing X in Asheron's Everquestscape actually took effort, unlike in ModernMMO"? Effort in an MMO breaks down into 3 factors, if something is described as difficult then it is either going to be:

 

a). A huge time sink, requiring an abnormal amount of sheer time investment (eg. Killing wolves in a field for 400 hours).

 

b). Incredibly unlikely through a mechanisim of pure chance (eg. very very rare drops).

 

c). Actually challenging in the sense that a great deal of individual skill, planning, teamwork or gameplay knowledge is required to accomplish the feat.

 

 

Guess which of these things are being referred to when a forumite makes a comment about how difficult classic MMOs were. I'll give you a clue, it's not c).

 

10 years ago Blizzard realised something quite important, that in hindsight should have been obvious - unemployed people who spend 12 hours a day playing games in their parent's basement aren't the only, or even the largest demographic to target a subscription based game at. So they created a game that was designed to reward you based on criteria other than wether or not you have a day job. WoW's greatest triumph is the same design decision that makes it unpopular with basement dwelling welfare toads, your 'success' or character strength in WoW is not directly proportional to the amount of time you spend online playing it.

 

Levelling to max level is fast, because that brings everyone together on a fairly level playing field where they can then be seperated by playing ability. 'Welfare epics' make the entry level of gear required to start raiding, or playing arena quick to aquire, allowing people to progress based on their ability at the game instead of having to fight through a timesink just to get on the gear ladder. When new gear tiers are introduced, the entry level is pulled up so that there is never an insurmountable gear gap between newish characters and people who sank a lot of time into the previous tier.

 

With this system, they manage to provide the best tuned and highest level challenge of *skill* provided by any MMO to date, to the point that guilds at the top level of play become internationally renowned with sponsorship deals. This is a game which goes out of its way to allow as many people as possible to take part in the raiding content, by making it easy to level up and aquire the gear to begin raiding. Despite this it still manages to tune the top end of PvE content so well that only a tiny percentage of the playerbase are actually capable of clearing the top hardmode content of each patch.

 

So evidentally, it's not easy, it's not casual or free, because the millions of subscribers who are all equipped with exactly what they need to complete this content, can't do it. Not because they have jobs, but because the game is actually challenging, instead of just time consuming. Character progression, that lure that is the backbone of all MMOs exists in WoW between the entry level of welfare gear, and the top level of hardmode gear from current content, with associated title and vanity mount. The power difference between the 2 ends is small, as it has to be for the system to work, but the bragging rights are great. This progression is tied to various systems that ensure it favours ability over time invested. Raid locks, weekly rating systems for arena, even boss fights that are time or attempt limited, it's clear that this is part of Blizzards design, and their results are evident.

 

This is the future of MMOs, to retain all the addictive progression carrots that define the genre, but to tier players and tie that progression to genuine challenges of increasing difficulty, rather than time-sink power systems that reward people primarily for being online all day. It's the unemployed who are grumpy, the self professed hardcore who are no longer top of the pile, because the 'effort' they put so much weight in and valued so highly only gets them faction tabards and a lot of achievement points.

 

No, it's not "difficult" to reach max level anymore. But when this difficulty you speak of really just means excessive playtime repeatedly killing things in a field, and the challenges you overcame mainly involved trying to pee into a cup, why are you so proud of yourself? Go clear the current raid content on hard, then you can come back and talk about how MMOs are all easy these days and everyone wants it all on a plate.

[pudim]

The reason that "hardcore playing" was so acclaimed in the past is that MMOs weren't popular enough and the hardcore playerbase was the thing that sustained their profits.

 

Nowadays, MMOs are extremely popular and casual players don't like "hard"

[tokosan]

Well said, sir! I love it. And you are correct on all points.

 

Also, still chuckling at "basement dwelling welfare toads". Because that's actually very true.

[Mephismo]

Very nice post, actually read it all the way through and agree with all.

[Roechacca]

well aside from the basement jokes, it was spot on. I too once lived in my moms basement Sir! But all we had was Atari back then so... probably helped get me out faster.

[darkcerb]

Nostalgia is the bane of mmo's as are elitist snobs, neither can make a popular mmo.

 

The hard modes are there for a reason and it always amazes me that 95% of the people that whine insensently about the ease of wow were no where near completed the hard raids available or hadn't stepped foot in one.

 

I don't whine about a game I've set to easy being to easy. There's plenty of room for both types of groups in an mmo, and I think both are well represented here one of the things bioware nailed having not done the hard mode ops myself (I rolled and leveled a 50 on a dead server)I can't say how well they've managed but time will tell.

[tokosan]

I haven't seen many people accuse SWTOR of being too easy, or handing out epics like candy.

 

Its mostly laggy, unbalanced, and badly designed that gets my goat.

[Heretiq]

There is nothing more to add. Thank you for writing this!

[TheTurniipKing]

10 years ago Blizzard realised something quite important, that in hindsight should have been obvious - unemployed people who spend 12 hours a day playing games in their parent's basement aren't the only, or even the largest demographic to target a subscription based game at. So they created a game that was designed to reward you based on criteria other than wether or not you have a day job. WoW's greatest triumph is the same design decision that makes it unpopular with basement dwelling welfare toads, your 'success' or character strength in WoW is not directly proportional to the amount of time you spend online playing it.

And yet TOR adopts levels, which are the fundamental timesink tool. A truly clever MMO would sidestep that initial grinding phase, and simply jump straight to an end-game state which keeps you playing with entertaining activities.

[tokosan]

And yet TOR adopts levels, which are the fundamental timesink tool. A truly clever MMO would sidestep that initial grinding phase, and simply jump straight to an end-game state which keeps you playing with entertaining activities.

 

levels aren't. Quests that say kill 40 mobs are. Gigantic maps full of pointless mobs are. Repetitive quests are.

 

And SWTOR has those in spades.

 

Also i don't think the OP was trying to say that SWTOR was some revolutionary step forward for MMOs. Hes just dissing stupid MMO elitists.

 

 

mmoRPG. role-playing game. Ya know it's always had levels for as long as ... since it's been invented, mister.

Edited February 2, 2012 by tokosan

[TeoHTime]

Right i see, so this is how you get people to read a thread on these forums. Now i can use this to link to something that's actually important...

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2429568

 

Ability delay and responsiveness. Dissapeared to page 20 with about 2 views. There's no current thread for it, the issue hasn't gone away, why are we pushing this stuff off the forum with threads about social points?

 

 

Disclaimer: Yes it was all a clever ruse to bump my real thread.

[TheTurniipKing]

levels aren't. Quests that say kill 40 mobs are. Gigantic maps full of pointless mobs are. Repetitive quests are.

 

And SWTOR has those in spades.

 

Also i don't think the OP was trying to say that SWTOR was some revolutionary step forward for MMOs. Hes just dissing stupid MMO elitists.

 

 

mmoRPG. role-playing game. Ya know it's always had levels for as long as ... since it's been invented, mister.

Not always. (see: Ultima Online)

 

They work just fine in a co-operative or single player experience, but all they do is provide guaranteed grief for players in a competitive game.

[pudim]

Levels are the real problem

When each major expansion changes the level cap, you make the players feel everything they did was useless

[tokosan]

Levels are the real problem

When each major expansion changes the level cap, you make the players feel everything they did was useless

 

what? dude.

 

you are playing a video game. nothing you do advances you in real life. No one actually cares that you have a shiney robe on.

 

Get a life, like the OP said, its not about basement nerds who want people to fawn over their epics they grinded 500 hours for. Its about the MASSES

 

because thats who buys EA execs their nice new boats.

 

see? its very simple.

[Kalfear]

So there's a recurring mantra on these forums that classic MMOs were 'hard' and required 'effort' to progress through, and all modern content including SWTOR and anything based around WoW is 'for casuals' who 'want everything for free'. I like to chuckle to myself when i hear these clichés. They're quotes from people who never really elaborate on what they mean by 'hard', but it's not difficult to read between the lines.

 

Strange

 

Ive seen LOTS of elaborating on what they mean by hard that I havent had to read between any imaginary lines.

 

But I only read and write english so maybe thats what im doing wrong?

 

I read your whole post, its what you wanted to say and claim (falsely) and thus you made your grand set up about reading between lines.

 

Its been explained so much in depth the past few weeks by so many different people that the only people that dont understand the entire concept and meaning IN FULL (and time sink is YOUR DEFINITION, no one elses) are never going to because they refuse to read and think at same time.

 

So congrats, you made a thread that is full of spin and assumptions and doesnt touch on whats said.

 

I suspect you started playing MMORPGs with in the last 7 years and thus dont fully grasp what went on in the genre before WOW.

 

Kinda sad really

[tokosan]

what went on in the genre before WoW?

 

 

Who cares? Pretty sure all those "hardcore" MMO dev's are banging their head against a wall, wishing they thought up blizzard's model.

 

Because what are blizzard exec's doing right now? Sipping top-shelf bubbly on their nice boats off the malibu coast.

 

yeah. and i'm glad for it, because i enjoyed the hell out of wow. more than any other game.

[hawkeyesfan]

Hey kalfear what went on in the genre pre wow? I can tell you one thing low sub numbers in comparison to wow! So in a business model which is better? Of course the smarter games like wow that evolved and brought those baddy casuals that have jobs. Spot on op nice post!

[Morgalica]

Strange

 

Ive seen LOTS of elaborating on what they mean by hard that I havent had to read between any imaginary lines.

 

But I only read and write english so maybe thats what im doing wrong?

 

I read your whole post, its what you wanted to say and claim (falsely) and thus you made your grand set up about reading between lines.

 

Its been explained so much in depth the past few weeks by so many different people that the only people that dont understand the entire concept and meaning IN FULL (and time sink is YOUR DEFINITION, no one elses) are never going to because they refuse to read and think at same time.

 

So congrats, you made a thread that is full of spin and assumptions and doesnt touch on whats said.

 

I suspect you started playing MMORPGs with in the last 7 years and thus dont fully grasp what went on in the genre before WOW.

 

Kinda sad really

 

As vet MMO player myself. I have to agree with this.

I've been around the MMO market for years now, and it seems all they are doing is dumbing down the genre. (these are my opinions and should be treated as such)

[Wilde_Night]

10 years ago, WoW wasn't available to the general masses.

 

2012 - 2004 = 8.

[zugumbamamba]

the only "old school" MMO I played was Ultima Online. a game where you'd lose all your phat l00t and time invested to craft or get it to anyone able to kill you. I'm doing the hard modes here with my guild and we all have work/kids to take care of... Still need more people at 50 atm to be able to do the operations. which in this game is pretty easy to get. you are outleveled for the planet you are in most of the time until corellia.

 

when I moved from UO to WoW It was a shock at first. The concept of bound items and all. people in UO only used their shining uber armor in special occasions because they were afraid to lose it. I think that todays MMO's needs a bit more of sandbox flavor. when I get tired of swtor I'll surely be giving EvE a try. It's the closest thing to UO thats successful and healthy today.

[Arutassin]

A good example is having everything laid out in front of you and explained so it is very easy to achieve. Classic games provided less information ton the user so that things have to be discovered.

 

A good example of things being made easier is in WoW how at one time, several items were needed to create a fire for cooking. This gradually got dumbed down to being an ability that requires no reagent. To cook you simply cast a fire and begin cooking. Having to spend time gathering the required items to create a fire and making sure you had them in your inventory took more management and time. It also meant you had to try and figure out how to make a fire rather than just having an ability to do so in your book.

 

It's this extra management and investigation that people miss from games. Now it feels like everything is given to you and explained with step by step instructions so that any idiot can do it. Before only those clever enough to work things out progressed.

[Lethality]

10 years ago Blizzard realised something quite important, that in hindsight should have been obvious - unemployed people who spend 12 hours a day playing games in their parent's basement aren't the only, or even the largest demographic to target a subscription based game at.

 

Huh? Clearly you've never played WoW at the high end, especially during vanilla, so you may want to keep your condescending opinion to yourself.

 

MMOs are consumed more as a hobby than a video game, and are very goal oriented. This design plays into the human nature of completion and succeeding at things. In other words, games were better when you had to put effort in to achieve a goal and got whatever reward came with it.

 

These days, there is less of that and more "participation awards" where if you just show up without any extra effort, you get rewarded anyway. Whether they know it or not, players do not get the same enjoyment from this as having to put effort in.

 

So, your generation of entitlement is making things worse by lowering the bar for you. Blame your parents.

 

This is the future of MMOs, to retain all the addictive progression carrots that define the genre, but to tier players and tie that progression to genuine challenges of increasing difficulty, rather than time-sink power systems that reward people primarily for being online all day. It's the unemployed who are grumpy, the self professed hardcore who are no longer top of the pile, because the 'effort' they put so much weight in and valued so highly only gets them faction tabards and a lot of achievement points.

 

As I said before, there's nothing to achieve. You get a trophy just for showing up now. Which makes it even more silly... you're paying for the privilege to simply "be busy"? Lol, ok...

 

As a gainfully employed professional, and someone NOT like you erroneously describe, I see that as the biggest waste of my time and money imaginable. But I would ALWAYS put time in to achieve something.

 

Think about it.

[tokosan]

yeah, but you are forgetting what the OP said. He said the participation awards are not as good as the hard mode stuff. The hard mode stuff is SLIGHTLY better, but not insanely out of reach for others.

 

You are acting like everyone gets awarded top tier gear almost instantly. That just doesnt happen, you are ignoring half his post and quoting out of context.

[Arutassin]

If you want to get an idea of what an older MMO used to offer, try playing a MUD. I started of playing and still play Discworld MUD:

 

http://discworld.starturtle.net/lpc/

 

This will give you an idea of what it feels like to play a game where you have to work everything out. It is really rewarding.

[Aljabik]

Easy mode games give me no sense of achievement. There is no skill required in these games except in PvP and I do not like PvP. I joined a PvE guild on a PvE server, but all the game gives is a levelling experience a 10 year old would master in a few hours and some end game small unit raids.

 

PvE combat requires no skill at all. It needs to, not everyone likes PvP! Can you tell I am frustrated by this?

 

Yes camping rare spawns sucked, yes the rng not giving you the item you wanted was frustrating but do I remember being told to go loot my cowl of mortality? Darned right! Do I remember any achievement or item in swtor beyond my crafted speeder? No. Why? Because nothing took more than a day or 2 of effort and instant gratification is no long term satisfaction.

 

So do not write a long winded post claiming all us old timers just want time sinks. Some do, but most want a deep immersive experience where the way you play your toon matters, skill matters, and not all toons are cookie cutter PvP balanced clones.