1.1.2 Marauder/Sentinel changes are dps LOSS not increase

[Sun-Runner]

Please enlighten us. What should we be "testing to see how they play"? The only change is how much damage our regular and crit bleed ticks will do. The class isn't going to play any differently. It will just be lower damage. Period.

If I may? How about we test to see if the patch changes are bugged? How about we test to see if they aren't making silent changes in addition to what is called out in the patch notes? Accepting the patch notes as being accurate and complete prior to testing that accuracy and completeness will generate unpleasantness.

 

As such:

 

Has anyone tested these changes on the PTS to confirm that the patch notes are accurately stating the changes?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Sun-Runner

[Tumri]

While I would normally agree with testing on the PTR it's an enormous chore right now. We can't copy characters. To test the changes we'd need a level 50 character(or 37 I suppose). You'd have to go on the PTR and level a Marauder to 37 or 50 solely for the purpose of confirming patch notes. After this build goes live you'd lose the PTR character. It's just something that isn't realistic at the moment.

[Ashnazg]

Has anyone tested these changes on the PTS to confirm that the patch notes are accurately stating the changes?

 

As the guy above me said, this test server is somewhat of a joke right now because Bioware refuses to give us level 50 chars to play with.

 

We also have no tools to enable us to actually test stuff - no combat logs, no parsers, no nothing.

 

Its a giant joke

[Marisblood]

Marauders/sentinels need nerf regarding survivability. When u get 2k hp u pop up CD and kill full HP players. So is this balance? We all know the answer. U need more nerfs!

[SunwindIon]

Marauders/sentinels need nerf regarding survivability. When u get 2k hp u pop up CD and kill full HP players. So is this balance? We all know the answer. U need more nerfs!

 

you are stupid

[Revenal]

Seriously need to do the maths, a class that needs a little buff so that we can compete with the easily playable classes yet they think its a buff but its a nerf. Do your maths first...

[MatAuc]

Marauders/sentinels need nerf regarding survivability. When u get 2k hp u pop up CD and kill full HP players. So is this balance? We all know the answer. U need more nerfs!

I wish we could kill someone in 5 seconds. Hey, news flash, we pop Undying rage, you stop attacking and CC us or outrange us or whatever, then KB us since we have even less health than when you last hit us. GG. I'm not saying undying rage is a bad ability. But its counterable.

 

And on subject now. I might be missing something, But the tooltip right now says it increases bleed crit dmg by 30%, but you are treating it like if its 30% to all bleeds. If thats a bug, they are basicly fixing it. And we base crit being higher than 25% (more around 30-35%) and beserk/zen, it seems to add up higher even if it currently adds 30% raw dmg. Not a huge buff, but still.

[Razorangel]

The old system: (you can see a small test sample and a continuation of this discussion here)

The current system tooltips do not match up with actual in game math. The currrent system is doing the following:

Bleedout is currently giving us 30% damage to all bleed effects, not crit chance.

Deep Wound is unconfirmed. Without watching and counting 1000 ticks (or combat log) we can only assume it is affecting Rupture's direct damage correctly.

Hemorrhage is adding 4% instead of 6% additional damage to bleed damage. The first point provides ~2% increase, each additional point is ~1%.

 

New system proposed:

Hemorrhage: 15% bleed damage increase

Bleedout: 30% critical multiplier increase

 

Using the following stats as an example:

131 unmodified unskilled Rupture/Deadly Saber dot

25% crit chance

70% crit multiplier

 

Old System

In the old system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.7 = 301 critical dot

 

To explain those numbers we have the 131 base dot (no skills). We multiply that number times 1.3 for the 30% increase we WERE receiving from Bleedout. We then multiply times 1.04 for the 4% increase we WERE receiving from Hemorrhage. In the 2nd row, we multiply 1.7 for the critical multiplier.

 

Let's normalize that across 1000 dots. With a 25% crit chance that is 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.

177 * 750 = 132,750 normal dot damage

301 * 250 = 75,250 critical damage

Grand total = 208,000

 

New System

In the new system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:

131 * 1.15 = 150.65 normal dot

131 * 1.15 * 2 = 301 critical dot

 

131 is still our base unskilled dot. The 1.15 is the new Hemorrhage (3 points at 5% for each point = 15%). The 1.3 is the "corrected" Bleedout critical multiplier number. We are multiplying times 2 because 70% is the base critical multiplier and Bleedout provides an additional 30% critical multiplier. We would assume it is additive. If that is incorrect and Bleedout is multiplicative then critical dot is 332 (and the final number still show new system a dps loss). We don't think Bleedout is multiplicative though.

 

So lets normalize the new system across 1000 dots. Same as above, 25% base crit chance gives us 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.

151 * 750 = 114,000

301 * 250 = 75,250

Grand total = 189,250

 

What about Juyo form and Juyo Mastery? The new system does value critical chance more than the old system, but you would still need over 98% crit chance for the new system to overtake the old system.

 

TL;DR

The old system and new system critical dot amounts are exactly the same. All that has changed is non-crit dots will be less than the old system's non-crit dots.

 

Unless there is something we are missing, this is a damage decrease.

 

yep thanks swtor for making a killer worse to fight like a little kitten. Sigh

[MatAuc]

Also, I just now read your math. Its flawed in many ways. Especially because it's over simplistic. You ignore a lot of factor (such as gear and juyo form.,... really... you ignored juyo form.... like seriously). Just looks like a smart *** post about "hey, I did grade 6 math and it doesnt add up, you guys at BW did math grade 5!".

 

Include every factor in your equation and then maybe it would make more sense that they said its a buff (because you know they didnt use your over simplistic equations..)

[Tumri]

I redid his math with Juyo and real Rakata gear stats. It still ended up being a loss unless the 30% crit dmg increase is a multiplier for total crit damage AFTER surge, which is unlikely.

[MatAuc]

I redid his math with Juyo and real Rakata gear stats. It still ended up being a loss unless the 30% crit dmg increase is a multiplier for total crit damage AFTER surge, which is unlikely.

And beserk? Did you also add the group buffs?

 

EDIT : By Experience, skill/talents multipliers are usually accounted after everything else in every other MMO's. I don't think there is a clear answer for swtor yet, but maybe you say its unlikely, but if it is in fact that, it means all this QQ would be for nothing which just shows how much people whine by ignorance.

Edited February 7, 2012 by MatAuc

[Pappus]

A full week later you are still doing bad math?

 

You guys are a joke and yet yell yell and yell...

 

I will drop the explanation once more:

 

You have two talens, both increase Spell A's damage by 30%

 

What you guys do is

Spell A*1,3*1,3 resulting in 69% damage increase

 

What every developer would do it:

Spell A*(1+0,3+0,3) resulting in 60% damage increase as intended.

[Futturo]

/off topic

 

This thread just baffles my mind ...

 

You have the OP who is trying to see if this is an actual issue and has tried to do the math to back up his claim and is trying to discuss it with with the community then roll in the :

 

1. Fanboi's who swear that nothing can possibly be wrong because the game is made by god him self who is an employee of bioware and any mathematics to back up the claim is just heresy and witchcraft

 

2. L2math people who claim that the OP is an idiot cause he cant do math ... then get proven wrong and never post in the thread again

 

3. Ragers who got killed by a mara a few days ago and now are demanding a nerf

 

imo its very unfortunate because with no dev response and the patch going live tonight and no way of public testing for end game if this is an actual mistake it will just go into the "meh ... working as intended" pile

Edited February 7, 2012 by Futturo

[MatAuc]

/off topic

 

This thread just baffles my mind ...

 

You have the OP who is trying to see if this is an actual issue and has tried to do the math to back up his claim and is trying to discuss it with with the community then roll in the :

 

1. Fanboi's who swear that nothing can possibly be wrong because the game is made by god him self who is an employee of bioware and any mathematics to back up the claim is just heresy and witchcraft

 

2. L2math people who claim that the OP is an idiot cause he cant do math ... then get proven wrong and never post in the thread again

 

3. Ragers who got killed by a mara a few days ago and now are demanding a nerf

 

imo its very unfortunate because with no dev response and the patch going live tonight and no way of public testing for end game if this is an actual mistake it will just go into the "meh ... working as intended" pile

Without being a fanboi, its easy to see biased and incomplete equations vs what the devs do. Remember, those guys actually created this game, and as much as people like to bash it, its a very complexe thing with far more complexe equations than that. YES THEY COULD DO A MISTAKE, but no, that equation does not reveal anything. The actual thread most likely made them revise it. But people request an answer to everything, no you are not gonna get an answer to everything. Requesting an answer to everything is somewhat ignorant and childish.

[Viscidslime]

I force charged to a trooper in Hutt ball, blew all my CDs, for maz dps/stability..

 

The Trooper simply KB'ed me into acid, I was then stun locked, 2 seconds later.. I died.

GG on teh QQ, it sucks but I sucked it up and owned him later after I let my resolve bar max out.

 

You people need to realize, Marauders and Sentinels may have great burst damage, but this damage is not at all sustainable, and other classes in pvp can easilly negate the DPS with their CC lock downs.

 

Also, keep in mind ... MARAUDERS and SENTINELS .... ARE NOT an easy class to play!!

Like all classes, if you can master them, you are that much more superior..

ESPECIALLY, if your class was INTENDED to be great burst MELEE DPS..

 

You folks need to stop whining, and learn how checks and balances work..

 

Jump in the shower, get yourself a cup of coffee and go outside for some fresh air.

 

ZZZZZZZZZ, so much forum whining gets old..

 

P.S. Hey mods, can there be a "cheese" rank, for all the whiners? That would be awesome

[Futturo]

Without being a fanboi, its easy to see biased and incomplete equations vs what the devs do. Remember, those guys actually created this game, and as much as people like to bash it, its a very complexe thing with far more complexe equations than that. YES THEY COULD DO A MISTAKE, but no, that equation does not reveal anything. The actual thread most likely made them revise it. But people request an answer to everything, no you are not gonna get an answer to everything. Requesting an answer to everything is somewhat ignorant and childish.

 

I agree with some of what you are saying and imo that's what a forum is for to discuss issues like the one in this thread

 

but when a persons sol response and only reasoning behind it is "it's bioware and there never wrong" then that is a fanboi with fanboi reasoning

[hsram]

Fail to see how this is a DPS decrease. Say Rupture does 660 internal damage over 1 sec (this is a bleed). Hemorrhage now is boosting that by 6% for a total of ~700 damage over 1 second. Hemorrhage coming in the patch is boosting that by 15% for a total of ~760 damage over 1 second. 760 > 700 aka increase.

 

From the wording I'm getting with Bleedout as it wasn't even working beforehand so making it work will increase the DPS output of Rupture and Deadly Saber attacks by giving each bleed crit a +30% crit damage modifier.

[Viscidslime]

Fail to see how this is a DPS decrease. Say Rupture does 660 internal damage over 1 sec (this is a bleed). Hemorrhage now is boosting that by 6% for a total of ~700 damage over 1 second. Hemorrhage coming in the patch is boosting that by 15% for a total of ~760 damage over 1 second. 760 > 700 aka increase.

 

From the wording I'm getting with Bleedout as it wasn't even working beforehand so making it work will increase the DPS output of Rupture and Deadly Saber attacks by giving each bleed crit a +30% crit damage modifier.

 

We have no combat logs for pre patch, I guess we'll never really know.

 

/shrug

 

Tomorrow, Im sure the hot topics will change.

 

MMO forum surfers suffer from A.D.D., apparently.

[Ladenian]

Hey, at least your class got acknowledged.

 

Still waiting on those Jugg DPS buffs.

 

I can't wait to see some jugg threat love. AOE threat is complete garbage.

[Balagos]

My Anni Maurader is doing less damage than before the patch and its not even close.

 

36% dot damage vs 15% dot damage + 30% crit increase

 

36% wins out handidly.

 

Furthermore, the 30% crit increase goes into the pile with surge, meaning it doesn't add up after surge crit but is instead added into it. If this is confusing here is what the math should have looked like.

 

(Crit multiplier of 50% + surge)30%

 

instead it reads Crit multiplier of 50% + surge + 30% talent

 

If its a dps decrease, please say so next time instead of feeding us another lie.

 

thanks

Edited February 7, 2012 by Balagos

[MatAuc]

My Anni Maurader is doing less damage than before the patch and its not even close.

 

36% dot damage vs 15% dot damage + 30% crit increase

 

36% wins out handidly.

 

Furthermore, the 30% crit increase goes into the pile with surge, meaning it doesn't add up after surge crit but is instead added into it. If this is confusing here is what the math should have looked like.

 

(Crit multiplier of 50% + surge)30%

 

instead it reads Crit multiplier of 50% + surge + 30% talent

 

If its a dps decrease, please say so next time instead of feeding us another lie.

 

thanks

I do more dmg overall. Yes your non crit ticks are slitghtly lowert but overall its higher. People underestimate HOW MANY TIMES we crit I think.

[Tumri]

It's a nerf. Confirmed that the 30% crit damage bonus is additive not multiplicative.

[thierryfying]

yep. its a nerf confirmed.

 

3x stack of deadlysaber used to crit for 1.2k-1.7k depending on target.

 

now a 3x stack is just doing 800-1.2k crits.

 

rupture noncrit ticks used to be 200-300. now i'm seeing 160+

 

(numbers are rough)

[malkavianknight]

Any word on if they are fixing this?

[Pappus]

yep. its a nerf confirmed.

 

3x stack of deadlysaber used to crit for 1.2k-1.7k depending on target.

 

now a 3x stack is just doing 800-1.2k crits.

 

rupture noncrit ticks used to be 200-300. now i'm seeing 160+

 

(numbers are rough)

 

Those numbers seems more like a lie:

 

Even going multiplicative I will justt give you 30% dmg bonus on your numbers

 

800*1,3=1040

1200*1,3=1560

 

and then again dots don't even have a range to begin with. They are fix damage.

 

Or dou you see your deadly saber stating something like A to B dmg, not it doesn't it says A dmg per stack over Y amount of time same goes with rupture.