1.1.2 Marauder/Sentinel changes are dps LOSS not increase

[Kormarf]

As an operative I'm relishing your tears. I'm so happy you guys got exactly what you wanted: you got the nerf ball rolling.

 

I will continue to rofl when sorcs and mercs get nerfed next patch. Cheers to all you PvP scrublets that don't know what a cc breaker is!

 

This is an incredibly small nerf compared to Operatives nerf which was really a ninja buff, and if you think merc is OP theres something wrong with you.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kormarf

[ManOSteal]

You're numbers for the current system seem off to me.

 

Why are you multiplying for bleedout and hemorrhage separately? This is inflating your numbers, and I would think that the game would treat all flat damage increases similarly and calculate them together before crits.

 

With this in mind the current system would have a 34% damage increase on all bleeds.

 

Using your numbers this would yield:

 

131 * 1.34 = 175 normal dot damage

(131 * 1.34) * 1.7 = 298 critical dot damage

 

175 * 750 = 131,250

298 * 250 = 74,500

total = 205,750

 

What I see is indeed a nerf to our non-crit bleed damage but a definite buff to our critical bleed damage, albeit small.

 

However you have failed to calculate the effect of Berserk in which has a VERY high uptime, so no Annihilation Marauder would every really have anything as paltry as a 25% effective critical chance.

 

This just further solidifies crit and surge as our primary stats, and let's us reach previously unattainable crit damage percentages as we ostensibly gain a free 30% critical damage unmodified by diminishing returns. Our damage will see a noticeable increase in DPS with more surge rating.

 

your just figuring out the crit/surge thing now. I have been telling my friends this for weeks now. The Marauder is a crit fiend it's what we want to do. A lot of builds devalue crit and surge because we have guaranteed crits with certain abilities that then have their crit damage increased later in the build. Personally I am pumping as much crit on my Marauder as I can. I play carnage so I wasn't as sure but it looks like they are moving anni towards a crit build as well.

[KazDvs]

Crit damage bonus is additive. Base damage modifiers for an ability are multiplicative. If you had a skill that increased bonus damage, that would be additive.

 

This formula matches the in game numbers. What you are recommending could make sense if that is how they did it, but that's not how BW is doing it.

 

I apologize if I'm being short of words but I'm repeating myself over and over on multiple threads.

 

I understand what you are saying but multiplicative damage bonuses are tricky beasts and I see no reason why BW would caculate damage this way. Without combat logs how is this proven?

 

Regardless the outcome is the same for both of us, with your pre-patch numbers being roughly 1% higher than mine, but the end result is lower numbers with a more linear scaling with surge.

[cosmasterkiller]

Bleed effects don't have a range of damage (always the same tick amount). The numbers match up with multiplicative modifiers.

 

PS Check your inbox.

[ManOSteal]

They are not additive. It is 131 * 1.3 * 1.04.

 

Please head here: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

 

Any time they say increased by X% the percentile is added. Hence saber ward increases your defenses by 50% means it adds 50% not that your base ammount is increased by half that would be dumb. When my talents in the carnage tree say that there is a 3% increase to my accuracy it means my accuracy goes from 90% up to 93%. All percentile increases are additive. It is the same reason that blood fury makes my force scream an instant crit instead of just doubling my crit chance with it. Also why when I take sever my crit damage with force scream, ataru form hits, and massacre all have 80% crit damage while I have 0 surge.

[Fan_Atic]

Hey, at least your class got acknowledged.

 

Still waiting on those Jugg DPS buffs.

 

 

 

This.... did marauders really need a dps boost they were already quite a bit ahead of Jugg dps, raid desirable, and competitive.

[Sabbathius]

This.... did marauders really need a dps boost they were already quite a bit ahead of Jugg dps, raid desirable, and competitive.

 

Nope, they didn't need it. And I have a Mara myself.

 

What Maras did need, first and foremost, was quality of life tweaks and making their priority rotation a tad less complex.

 

I'm getting horrible flashbacks from WoW while I'm reading what Bioware is doing. It's like WoW mages saying "Please, give us some survivability." And Blizz says "What's that? You want more damage? You got it!" And mages again go "No more damage, please, just some more survivability." And Blizz says "We hear you, MOAR DAMAGE, coming right up!" This is back in the day when a hunter pet could solo a mage with Beast Wrath. Exactly what Bioware is doing now.

 

I mean, I get that they're using some internal metrics. But when will they learn that actually playing the game and seeing what works in the real world is the only answer? Metrics always tell only part of the story.

[ManOSteal]

I have no problem surviving as a marauder. I survive just enough that it makes sense for what isn't supposed to be a tanking class. Of course I like to think strategically and don't really ever try to solo kill things. I run in do a bunch of damage to someone and let a team mate finish them off, unless someone else has done the same and I am the team mate finishing them off. After that I break combat and go regen or pot up for a second and let cloak come off of cooldown. Then it's right back in the fray.

[Jonoelgrande]

Bump for justice, this needs to be addressed

[DivineGFX]

Marauders do need a damage buff. They have sections that last about 6 seconds where they do pretty decent damage, and then it falls off inbetween DoT downtime. Annihilate doesnt hit as hard as we'd all like it to, especially considering the cooldown even with annihilator buffs stacking, and with no auto attack and only a 30% chance on bleed crits to gain extra rage (Which btw can only happen once every GCD) we really can't keep our eyes off of our actionbar/rage bar.

 

I still see ops post nerf killing things like the stun droids on nightmare conveyor belt boss in half the time it takes me. This is solely because of ramp-up and the lack of burst. If anything, we need burst damage that we can use everyone once in a while that doesn't cost rage or that generates it. Let's face it, our Rage generators SUCK for damage, and while every other class starts with full power and counts down, we start with nothing and have normalized generation. Rage management is a damn pain in its current state. To top it off, I don't even feel as though our rage spenders can even compensate for the damage lost trying to BUILD that rage in the first place.

 

Assault attacks that hit for 800 on crits vs an ability that takes 5 rage and crits for less than 4k (On average). Assuming DPR, Annihilate only does about 420 DPR (for a hit, not a crit), vicious slash is around 330 (Again, for a hit). An ability that hits twice as hard as vicious slash costs (considering the refund talent) twice the rage doesn't even do twice the DPR in one CD. How does something like that even make sense?

 

so it seems bleeds aren't the only issue here. I rolled a pure DPS class to DO a ton of DPS. I don't care if it's in the form of dots, but I want the ability to out DPS hybrids. I hate the ******** argument of no hybrid-class taxation too, because what's the point of pure DPS classes is that's the case?

 

So even if the change was made to these talents to actually make it a buff for everyone, regardless of gear, they would still need to make other changes to give anyone a reason to roll the class. As it stands, there's no point in playing one when someone who has the opportunity to fulfill 2 roles can do just as much as a marauder. Not to say I'm going to reroll, but a pure DPS class needs to do more DPS than a hybrid, otherwise there is no sense in being "pure."

[Ryxxi]

wtb a dev confirmation

[Kenshinth]

Ataru Form still bugged on bosses with huge hitboxes.

[Kibaken]

Ataru Form still bugged on bosses with huge hitboxes.

 

This.

[phswtor]

Wont come. They honestly think juggs are fine even after fixing the tooltip of shatterso everyone of us could see it now.

 

Yea they are stupid, clearly. You sents/marauders really have nothing to complain about till u play a jugg/guard

[Munx]

Is that so?

 

Juggs can tank just fine, as proven by the fact that we use a jugg to tank nm 10/10

 

Juggs "pvp" build is better then the marauder one, because of jugg gear and bonuses which add % dmg.

 

Marauders have 3 dps builds, non of which work as they should, massacre/blade rush being bugged to ****, frequently going below its own base damage.

 

I would say marauders have plenty of reason to "whine".

[plompkin]

Yea they are stupid, clearly. You sents/marauders really have nothing to complain about till u play a jugg/guard

 

Just...no.

[Superawesomerman]

They are increasing from 6% to 15% and fixing it so the crits actually work properly all that math and your still completly wrong, you sir are a moron please lear how to read for god sakes

 

any more irony and this thread would rust

[Akilae]

Exactly, this is being sold as a dps increase when it is actually a dps decrease. I love BW, LOVE the game, and respect the devs. They need to either recalculate their changes or not state this as a dps increase in the official patch notes because it's not.

 

Or perhaps they have more info on how the abilities actually work then you? You're making a lot of assumptions on how things work, especially for a game that has no combat log. Napkin math, especially on gaming abilities has been proven wrong time and again in games like WoW, by the developers, and those people even had combat logs to parse.

[Filouch]

It still doens't net you a gain because it's still buffing a drastically reduced base damage.

 

That´s exactly what I ment, In the case that the sentinel can stack centering a lot (which I think that watchman is capable of), so when you activate zen, you have actually 9% dmg increase when compared to the old system. But it it really hard to calculate it with rotations etc. Maybe the guys from Elitist jerks will be able to handle the numbers

[DizzD]

Maybe we could test it out on the Public TEST Server...oh wait...kinda forgot that they don't give us the means or the tools to properly test anything combat related...so...why is it PUBLIC if the PUBLIC has no way to properly utilize it?

 

BW logic so funny! Hue Hue Hue!

Edited February 3, 2012 by DizzD

[Jonoelgrande]

Mathematically looks sound?... Bioware needs to take a look at this again

[Sinvx]

Juggs/Guardians and Marauders/Sentinels dont need a dps increase. If you think they do, you're bad.

[gibmachine]

Juggs/Guardians and Marauders/Sentinels dont need a dps increase. If you think they do, you're bad.

If I can't have any utility beyond BT / offtank capabilities (cause face it, DPS juggs don't have anything else), then at least damage should be high enough to compensate.

 

Not to mention regarding pvp where ranged can toss you like a ***** while unloading all of their package while we have to first ramp things up and then maybe do some damage while trying to stay on top of them.

 

But then again you propably got badly outplayed by a marauder the other day and now think that it's the failt of their insane dmg output.

[Skeptical]

All of this speculation is based off of the assumption that the talent that is being adjusted is currently giving a 30% base damage bonus.

 

This all seems like a bunch of Henny Pennies trying to act like they know the math better than the guys who have spent years with the code.

 

You guys have no way of knowing if there is a 30% increase to base bleed damage. If a developer has confirmed that then my bad. Post a link to shed more light on the subject.

 

If, however, this has not been confirmed by an official source, you guys need to stop spreading misinformation and masquerading it as irrefutable proof.

 

My point is that your math can be as tight as a mosquito's butt hole, but if you're basing your whole equation on spurious information, it means absolutely nothing.

[Sinvx]

If I can't have any utility beyond BT / offtank capabilities (cause face it, DPS juggs don't have anything else), then at least damage should be high enough to compensate.

 

Not to mention regarding pvp where ranged can toss you like a ***** while unloading all of their package while we have to first ramp things up and then maybe do some damage while trying to stay on top of them.

 

But then again you propably got badly outplayed by a marauder the other day and now think that it's the failt of their insane dmg output.

 

No. First of all any decent jugg/guardian can crit 8ks in PvP. Marauders and Sentinels have better survival abilities than any other class. While still doing amazing deeps. They also have a lot of interrupts, slowing effects, and can close distance gaps fairly easily between the classes. You simply don't know how to play your class.