So Why is Threat Invisible?

[Calastrophe]

There are plenty of invisible game mechanics, threat is hardly the only one. I can think of several reasons why -

 

1) (as mentioned before) immersion - you should be playing the game and paying attention to the action, not playing a spreadsheet.

2) keep the amount of info presented on-screen to a minimum. If it isn't necessary then don't clutter up the UI.

 

To me, "it isn't needed" is a valid answer, because it means my screen is not filled up with useless figures. From my experience keeping threat is not such an issue that I need to know exactly where I'm sitting compared to the tank.

 

In games like WoW threat was all important because drawing aggro on a boss meant insta-kill. I have yet to see anything even remotely the same in SWTOR yet. The simple fact is that the WoW mechanics were badly designed resulting in a dire need for threat meters. I do not believe this is the case in SWTOR and as a result threat meters are for the most part meaningless.

[belthazaar]

Now what about DPS how do I know when Im going overboard and am about to pull threat on a boss and potentially get the whole raid cleaved? The numbers are important if not for tanking than for DPS.

[Gerrard_Ennui]

there is no clear way to know how much threat you have, losing aggro is not an acceptable way to judge this.

Preach it brother.

 

DPS dont pull aggro because they want to. They pull aggro because they have absolutely no way to discern their threat on the target UNTIL it attacks them. You don't even know when to slow down dps, you just have to get a 'feel' for it, which is utter BS. Some kind of numerical/graphical representation of threat is sorely needed.

[PjPablo]

While I would like to have something like Omen available in game is it really necessary yet? It seems the way the game is now losing threat isn't that big a deal. You have time to taunt and regain. Now if stuff starts instagibbing DPS then it would be nice to be able to see threat table.

[Aramyth]

Preach it brother.

 

DPS dont pull aggro because they want to. They pull aggro because they have absolutely no way to discern their threat on the target UNTIL it attacks them. You don't even know when to slow down dps, you just have to get a 'feel' for it, which is utter BS. Some kind of numerical/graphical representation of threat is sorely needed.

 

 

That's how it goes. If you're a DPS, and you pull aggro too much, you're doing it wrong. Raw damage will always generate more threat than taunts/threat skills, so it's up to the DPS to figure it out.

 

I play a healer, if you're a squishy melee, pulling aggro and it's too hard to keep you alive because you take so much damage, you know what happens? I let you die.

[Gerrard_Ennui]

That's how it goes. If you're a DPS, and you pull aggro too much, you're doing it wrong.

Indeed.

 

Raw damage will always generate more threat than taunts/threat skills...

Not only have I not seen this referenced anywhere, I haven't seen an in-depth discussion of threat mechanics by Bioware devs or community reps anywhere. Do you have a link?

 

it's up to the DPS to figure it out.

Figure WHAT out? its not like there is some data which we arent interpreting correctly, so we pull aggro. There's NO INFORMATION at all about threat. There are no clues by which anyone can figure anything out.

 

if you're a squishy melee, pulling aggro and it's too hard to keep you alive because you take so much damage, you know what happens? I let you die.

You seem quite pleased to be able to let someone die. Wouldn't you be happier if they could discern their threat, and thereby prevent the damage in the first place? Edited February 2, 2012 by Gerrard_Ennui

[Phishums]

Think of it this way, imagine playing Poker with all cards face up and visable - you have more information, but it also ruins the game

Uh, no. Successfully playing poker involves keeping your hand secret from the other players. That in no way compares to threat levels in a game. I can't see how having a threat meter "ruins" a group run. "Darn, it was so much more fun when I had no idea I was about to pull off the tank, and then a droid would rocket toward me and throw me into the wall! Those were the days..."

[Vitellius]

Every bit of information we get in a battle, be it from a bar or numbers or visuals etc., is there because it was designed to be there. Information gets transferred from the game to the player and the player acts accordingly. Too much information and the game is too easy. Too little and you can't win. So, the developers must design content on the information given and it MUST have the right amount of balance.

 

The mistake people make is that they think a threat indicator is just a frivolous thing that's nice to have and has no real meaning. WRONG! Threat indication has the *potential* to destroy that balance IF the game was designed to not have one. Now, the player has new information coming in, and the battles MUST be redesigned to account for that. You can't just put it in and keep everything the same.

 

So, why is it invisible? Purely a design decision. BW decided that information will not be given to the player. They then developed all content accordingly. Honestly, the reason is probably the most basic of all....it's easier this way. One less thing that has to be accounted for. The devs put the ball in the gamer's court. We must react to info we both have and don't have.

 

This is how I see it. Hope it makes sense.

[iSpree]

His logic is flawed.. just a wow fan boy is all.

Real players dont need mods. End of story.

[JustTed]

His logic is flawed...

 

This is usually the part where you say how.

[ApLJack]

Honestly, I havn't felt a TM was all that necessary as DPS, Healer, or Tank. Just me though, and I know after reading most the posts that wasn't the main question. Just getting my opinion out there.

 

In short, BioWare made a decision to not include it. Simple. That's the why, and end all about it.

 

I've pulled off the tank a couple times as DPS in FPs, I just drop down to auto-attacks till he can pull it off, or go all out on the mob to kill it instead. The best thing to do, give the tank a couple of seconds to pick up agro.

 

Not all FPs can be simply bum-rushed, and in general I am finding pugs taking the time to mark targets at first, and then they are getting a feel of which ones to CC before a pull all on their own. It's amazing how people pick up what to do when told at first, and trying it on their own.

[DaxRendar]

Uh, no. Successfully playing poker involves keeping your hand secret from the other players. That in no way compares to threat levels in a game. I can't see how having a threat meter "ruins" a group run. "Darn, it was so much more fun when I had no idea I was about to pull off the tank, and then a droid would rocket toward me and throw me into the wall! Those were the days..."

 

Actually, the Droid rocketing you into the wall (if it doesn't one-shot you or auto-wipe the raid like the current WoW-fail mechanics) can be a lot of fun.

 

Fights with uncertainty are a heckuva lot more interesting than the super-boring, repetitive, go-through-the-motions grind of the "perfect info" DBM/Recount/Omen Encounters that far too many Wrath-babies grew up on. Encounters used to be about working as a team to overcome a boss together rather than needing to invent ways to compete with each other to try to keep boredom from setting in.

 

I do think all DPS should have at least one threat dump or threat reduction ability that they can use to help manage their own aggro - but honestly yes if you are going to have Threat as a mechanic in the game, it really is more fun and interesting when it really matters and isn't just a stupid bar you stay under while mindlessly executing your rotation.

[Phishums]

His logic is flawed.. just a wow fan boy is all.

Real players dont need mods. End of story.

You're right. Real players degrade others, and then hang out and pat each other on the backs while taking turns telling their "I totally just called this guy a WoW fanboy, it was so brilliant" stories.

 

Saying you don't want a threat meter is an opinion; saying that nobody can use them to their advantage is ignorant.

[JustTed]

Fights with uncertainty are a heckuva lot more interesting than the super-boring, repetitive, go-through-the-motions grind of the "perfect info" DBM/Recount/Omen Encounters that far too many Wrath-babies grew up on.

 

No one's suggesting this. It's a straw man.

 

Knowing my threat on, say, and AoE pull where I'm holding five mobs at once doesn't guarantee that I can hold them all.

 

You all keep making the straw man "he wants everything to be perfect and for nothing to go wrong." I never said this. Ever.

 

I wish you could all debate me instead of the imaginary opponents in your head.

[Phishums]

It's amazing how people pick up what to do when told at first, and trying it on their own.

You don't play WoW, huh.

 

I'm still agreeing that, if it's needed it should be added; if not, it's up to BW and I don't care one way or the other. If all the mouth-breathers in this thread can make their way through max-level FPs and Ops the way they are now, then by God, so can I.

[Frammshamm]

As said, it is clearly visible without the need for numbers.

 

Less numbers make it more like playing a game and less like playing a spreadsheet.

 

well since there are many many boss fights that drop agro or have mechanics in place to hit the number two person on the threat list.. maybe it would be nice to know who that NEXT number 2 is gonna be so we can maybe precast some heals or hots for that person. Maybe its because we as dps should watch our threat bc in real boss fights, taking aggro for 1 hit = death, no matter the reaction time of the tank on taunt or the healer on insta heal.

 

 

OR MAYBE THE GAME IS JUST BAD AND WE SHOULDNT BE EXPECTING MMO MECHANICS IN A TERIBLY DESIGNED GAME.

[Krelan]

I never needed a threat meter as either a DPS or a tank, and I did just fine. Learn your class, learn other classes, and pay attention to the fight.

 

Also, pulling threat in this game isn't as big a deal as it is in most others. Many healers/DPS have decent defensive abilities, and generally aren't going to be two-shotted by the boss.

 

Again, learn to play, and don't depend on crutches. Threads like this make me realize just how much addons have dumbed down the average MMO player.

[JustTed]

I'm still agreeing that, if it's needed it should be added;

 

Look, think of it like cast bars.

 

Do you need cast bars? No. Is it nice that you can turn them on for certain encounters? Yeah.

 

I never used to word "need," but everyone else keeps doing it. You guys have fun.

[Dyvid]

I"m proud to say i'm a FFXI veteran. We didn't need threat meter to warn us about hate lose or if the dps is over doing it. A good tank knows his abilities and how use them. A good DPS knows his abilities and how to tow the threat line. Stop using crutches and learn how to play.

[Phishums]

Look, think of it like cast bars.

 

Do you need cast bars? No. Is it nice that you can turn them on for certain encounters? Yeah.

 

I never used to word "need," but everyone else keeps doing it. You guys have fun.

I don't mean that it's needed now. I mean that, if an encounter is added in the future where pulling aggro off the tank can cause a wipe, resulting in players needing to know their threat level, then it should be added.

[Redfeather]

"IF YOU NEEEEEEEEEEEED A THREAT METER YOU SUUUUUXK"

 

The OP never said 'need'. It's a pretty basic question. Simple too. Threat meters are useful, why is the mechanic invisible?

 

There's plenty of potentially good reasons it might be...but what IS the reason?

 

My guess? We'll get them eventually, but I'm sure curious why they're not in now.

[JustTed]

I don't mean that it's needed now. I mean that, if an encounter is added in the future where pulling aggro off the tank can cause a wipe, resulting in players needing to know their threat level, then it should be added.

 

Agreed, but that's also a pretty high bar. And again, all I asked is why it's excluded to begin with. "Need" is a poor argument since 1, I didn't make it and 2, we have lots of UI elements that we don't strictly "Need".

 

Can we all stop saying "need"? It's... so not the point.

[ApLJack]

You don't play WoW, huh.

 

Played it since Vanilla actually, stopping my account for a couple months to play this, may go back eventually and turn this account off for a while. I generally rotate my MMOs from time to time. Have several 85s, blah blah blah, nothing really special.

 

And I remember my first instancing when I started back in the day. I had no clue what a tank/healer was really. I learned though through trial and error. My previous MMO experience before WoW was Ultima Online, and there was little to no consideration for group-threat mechanics in that time.

 

It's really about learning, to me. I did end-game raids without things like DBM or HealBot and such. Just a matter of banging my head at an encounter once or twice, and then knowing it. But that's not really here nor there anymore.

[Phishums]

Can we all stop saying "need"? It's... so not the point.

The point is, you want BW to answer a question, and it's unlikely that they're going to. If I knew why we couldn't see threat levels, I'd have definitely told you before now, along with the four dozen other people who instead gave their views on why or why not they wanted to see them. What I learned from all this fun-ness was that they're not necessary at 50 anyway. What you learned is that game developers don't post in General.

[Rhinzual]

Rumor has it games prior to WoW didnt require threat meters either....

 

In Everquest, if something started wailing on the healer, the tank had to do their job asap or everyone would suffer... except the necromancers and monks.