So Why is Threat Invisible?

[JustTed]

Great, another wow player who cut his "tanking" teeth using threat meters.

 

We do just fine without some sort of Dummy Alarm for threat levels.

 

I've been tanking since Dark Age of Camelot and I never said I needed these tools. It's a shame you can't be bothered to read the thread.

[Phishums]

We'll remove that Energy Bar right away then.

I already said my piece on why your comparison of a threat meter to health/energy meters is dumb. Accidentally pulling aggro off the tank isn't the same as not knowing how many more hits you can take before you die, or how many more abilities you can use before you have to use a CD or resort to your "auto-attack".

 

Playing endgame WoW did (and does) require knowing your threat level if a large group is going to succeed. (Actually a group of 85s in Ulduar(sp?) can wipe if the wrong mob is dragged off the tank.) If endgame TOR does not require that to complete a FP or Op without hassle, then I'm not sure why it's such a huge concern that there isn't one.

 

I'm sure that if they implement something into the game where pulling aggro becomes common and can ruin an Op attempt or something, they'll add a threat meter.

[CharagonIGN]

A) Reduces difficulty. I no longer have to think 'if I throw out this sab charge and detonate with aimed shot will the burst pull aggro? Maybe it'd be better if I did something else'. I can just glance at the numbers and then hit the buttons. Pew pew pew no thought. And as a tank I don't have to look around at anything or watch for mobs breaking from me. I just sit there and stare at numbers and push the buttons that correspond to those numbers.

 

Reduces difficulty? In one scenario you have to calculate which abilities will maximize your damage without pulling threat and getting yourself killed.

 

In the other scenario you randomly slam on buttons and hope for the best because, hey, who knows *** will happen! You don't know how much threat you're building or how much threat the tank isn't building. One button is as good as the next.

 

 

If anything, adding a threat meter increases difficulty because then BioWare can balance their game under the expectation that you can accurately control mobs.

 

 

B) It reduces immersion. As I said before, I'm no longer watching the mobs. I'm watching the numbers. This means I'm no longer my trooper or BH or Sith or Jedi or whatever facing down an insurmountable opponent, lightsaber/blaster in hand. I'm not valiantly making myself a target.

 

I'm a set of numbers. I'm reading another set of numbers. I'm putting in inputs based entirely on those numbers. It's not a game, it's math homework.

Go play Force Unleashed. This IS a numbers game. Pretending it isn't doesn't make it so.

 

 

C) Is non-optional. As I said before, I can't just decide that I don't like the way the game plays this way, because even if the game is entirely beatable without getting every inch out of everything via meters 'hardcore' and, worse, wannabe hardcore players are rarely happy with just winning. Any little 'mistake' is often grounds for abuse and 'being taught how to play'.

 

So they put it in and everyone has to use it and endgame is no longer endgame. It's endspreadhseet.

Don't play with those people. You don't want to play with them and they sure as hell don't want to play with you. Edited February 2, 2012 by CharagonIGN

[KryloKillian]

Reduces difficulty? In one scenario you have to calculate which abilities will maximize your damage without pulling threat and getting yourself killed.

 

In the other scenario you randomly slam on buttons and hope for the best because, hey, who knows *** will happen! You don't know how much threat you're building or how much threat the tank isn't building. One button is as good as the next.

 

Welp.

 

Someone doesn't understand threat at all.

 

It's entirely possible to understand how much threat you are building/the tank is building just by watching who's doing what and having an understanding of how sustained and burst DPS at various levels affect it. You don't need hard numbers.

 

Well, not if you've spent any time learning how to play, anyway.

 

Edit: And I already beat Force Unleashed.

Edited February 2, 2012 by KryloKillian

[CharagonIGN]

Welp.

 

Someone doesn't understand threat at all.

 

It's entirely possible to understand how much threat you are building/the tank is building just by watching who's doing what and having an understanding of how sustained and burst DPS at various levels affect it. You don't need hard numbers.

 

Well, not if you've spent any time learning how to play, anyway.

 

Edit: And I already beat Force Unleashed.

 

No, you can GUESS how much threat you're building. You can't KNOW.

 

You can play it smart and not unload your highest DPS abilities at the start of a fight and you can assume that you're probably safe to go nuts on a mob the tank has a thirty second headstart on.

 

But you can't KNOW.

[SithEater]

I've been tanking since Dark Age of Camelot and I never said I needed these tools. It's a shame you can't be bothered to read the thread.

Its a shame you can't take an answer for an answer simply cause its not the answer you want. As a matter of fact question has been answered over and over and over so many times there is no other conclusion than you are a troll just looking to argue. Argue badly, but still its arguing.

 

There isn't one for the same reason there is no listing of the exact percentage of taxes taking out of your paycheck, or why there are no odometers on bicycles or list of ingredients on the hamburger you order at a restaurant. ITS NOT NEEDED.

 

The question I pose to you is why do you want one? And I will not accept because I want one for an answer. As a matter of fact I will not accept any answers, I will simply be rude and condescending and repeat "non-answer" over and over and over and over and over...

[XLauncher]

Welp.

 

Someone doesn't understand threat at all.

 

It's entirely possible to understand how much threat you are building/the tank is building just by watching who's doing what and having an understanding of how sustained and burst DPS at various levels affect it. You don't need hard numbers.

 

How are you supposed to watch who's doing what when there's not so much as a combat log to attribute whose numbers belong to who? This is an all around ridiculous post.

[Heliotic]

Because it's the only part of the game that makes instancing even slightly challenging and it was a joke that Blizzard thought that adding threat meters was a good idea.

[PhoenixAshen]

A) Reduces difficulty. I no longer have to think 'if I throw out this sab charge and detonate with aimed shot will the burst pull aggro? Maybe it'd be better if I did something else'. I can just glance at the numbers and then hit the buttons. Pew pew pew no thought. And as a tank I don't have to look around at anything or watch for mobs breaking from me. I just sit there and stare at numbers and push the buttons that correspond to those numbers.

 

In a way, I agree. If a threat meter was in the game by default, people would learn how to use it and make encounters easier on the whole. However, it's doing that by giving people information they didn't have before. A threat meter alone won't make a decent player into an amazing player by itself, it just shows them what they can do to improve, which I don't see as a bad thing. It also could make a terrible player understand what's actually going on and make them enjoy the game more, or at least open up endgame content that they wouldn't have been able to complete otherwise.

 

To me, a threat meter lets me get the few percentage points more out of my role than I would have been able to otherwise. It's not a game breaker, but it lets me push myself in ways that the game itself doesn't. I think of it like a self-inflicted rage timer. When simply beating the boss isn't a challenge, maybe downing it in under 3 minutes is.

 

B) It reduces immersion. As I said before, I'm no longer watching the mobs. I'm watching the numbers. This means I'm no longer my trooper or BH or Sith or Jedi or whatever facing down an insurmountable opponent, lightsaber/blaster in hand. I'm not valiantly making myself a target.

 

I'm a set of numbers. I'm reading another set of numbers. I'm putting in inputs based entirely on those numbers. It's not a game, it's math homework.

 

I actually liked math homework

 

I raided with a moderately serious guild for a couple years, and a big part of the enjoyment I got out of what most would consider a mindless grind, was figuring out how I could squeeze more DPS out of my mage, increase my tank's damage mitigation, and generally improve how I played the game.

 

I'm not saying I want to be a professional gamer or anything like that, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy improving and being better at what my role is in the game. It's not for everyone, or even most, but it is for a few.

 

C) Is non-optional. As I said before, I can't just decide that I don't like the way the game plays this way, because even if the game is entirely beatable without getting every inch out of everything via meters 'hardcore' and, worse, wannabe hardcore players are rarely happy with just winning. Any little 'mistake' is often grounds for abuse and 'being taught how to play'.

 

You're right, and I really hadn't thought about that. I wish so many did not feel like they had to give in to that pressure just to play the game, but that is a good point. I feel that this is more a problem with people feeling like they have to play the game in the way the guild tells them to play, but regardless of the cause, it is a reality.

 

 

So they put it in and everyone has to use it and endgame is no longer endgame. It's endspreadhseet.

 

Plus, I mean, you don't need it.

 

For that, you get a Mon-Cal with a hole in its head

 

Edited February 2, 2012 by PhoenixAshen

[DarkSeverance]

That works great until you start getting yelled at for losing threat on an enemy and it two-shots the healer. (If they can hit that hard; I don't have a 50 yet.)

 

I would also like to be able to see if I'm losing threat before a mob runs off and punches someone else in the face.

That is why the tank should be spinning the mobs away from the group. It is easy to see which mobs are hitting/shooting at you because they will be facing you as opposed to your group. It also makes it easier to see who in the group is focusing on your target.

 

Keep in mind a lot of 'threat' issues in groups goes with marking targets and making sure everyone is focusing on the same mobs. A lot of times everyone is focusing on different mobs, then threat will be bouncing. Providing everyone is focus firing then it is pretty easy to see where the threat is at as well as gain it back when needed.

[Gerrard_Ennui]

Why do we have an invisible game mechanic?

Because antiquated, obsolete game mechanics die hard. There really isnt any good reason to not allow the player to see information that is integral to his/her play and operation. Its just bad game and UI design, like obscuring the speedometer in an automobile or putting hard enrages into boss fights with no way to parse performance. Edited February 2, 2012 by Gerrard_Ennui

[KryloKillian]

I actually liked math homework

 

I raided with a moderately serious guild for a couple years, and a big part of the enjoyment I got out of what most would consider a mindless grind, was figuring out how I could squeeze more DPS out of my mage, increase my tank's damage mitigation, and generally improve how I played the game.

 

I'm not saying I want to be a professional gamer or anything like that, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy improving and being better at what my role is in the game. It's not for everyone, or even most, but it is for a few.

See, I actually enjoy this too. When I played WoW I spent time on Elitist Jerks, and then played with their builds, etc. My main reason for never going back was the simplification of their trees. When I played Rift right at launch before theorycrafting was a thing you could go and look up, well, my Assassin/Nightblade did ridiculous damage and finished every fight with full health, and my Warrior could take on multiple equal leveled opponents in open world PvP solo. My mage was capable of beating elites meant for full groups at level while soloing (though not easily). When I was on AoC I was capable of off tanking with my DPS barbarian through proper use of abilities, though I only did that when the tank was poor and let the healer grab aggro. And I've never pulled aggro from a tank, nor done subpar DPS in any game.

 

These are not things that happen without spending time reading talents, testing abilities, trying multiple builds, etc.

 

That's a thing that's ALSO fun for me. It's actually why I play MMOs, being the anti-social jerk I usually am, and to be honest I'm not fully against a threat meter. I mean, I'm vaguely against it right now just because the UI is already kinda cluttered and ****** without enough customization and I don't want it taking up a chunk of my screen until that's fixed.

 

But really, I'm mostly trying to point out that hey, here's why people wouldn't want it. Other people have already pointed out enough why we don't really NEED it, so I'm just not going to respond to the other two jokers.

 

Edit: Though I hated math homework. I need a personal connection to my maths to like them.

Edited February 2, 2012 by KryloKillian

[PhoenixAshen]

I mean, I'm vaguely against it right now just because the UI is already kinda cluttered and ****** without enough customization and I don't want it taking up a chunk of my screen until that's fixed.

 

No argument there, the UI is a cluttered mess and needs a heavy dose of XAML and a "less is more" philosophy. The only way I can see putting threat notification in right now (without obscuring all the pretty pictures that people like) is some sort of color changing ring that goes from green to red as you approach the threat level of the person with aggro.

[DaxRendar]

To me, a threat meter lets me get the few percentage points more out of my role than I would have been able to otherwise. It's not a game breaker, but it lets me push myself in ways that the game itself doesn't. I think of it like a self-inflicted rage timer. When simply beating the boss isn't a challenge, maybe downing it in under 3 minutes is...

 

I raided with a moderately serious guild for a couple years, and a big part of the enjoyment I got out of what most would consider a mindless grind, was figuring out how I could squeeze more DPS out of my mage, increase my tank's damage mitigation, and generally improve how I played the game.

 

The part of your quote that I bolded is key - things like Threat Meters, DBM, and Damage Meters actually make Encounters much more of a "mindless grind" then if they didn't exist at all.

 

Think of it this way, imagine playing Poker with all cards face up and visable - you have more information, but it also ruins the game.

 

Playing a game actually isn't about pure optimization of performance - it's about finding a "sweet spot" between skill, challenge, random outcomes, and "interesting choices" - and perfect information actually reduces the possibility of hitting that "sweet spot"

 

Take a little time and actually think about it... you might be surprised.

[Jandi]

They don't hit that hard. Or more specifically, the healers aren't that weak. Hell, some healers have the same amount of armor I have, more or less, and roughly the same amount of health!

 

You should probably get out of your green gear, and activate your tanking stance/saber charge before you make such ******* comments.

[GalacticKegger]

The question is "What reason is there to have it invisible?"

Because having each mobs' threat attention level displayed so the tank would know EXACTLY which one needed more attention would be cherry picking. Even threat meters like Omen don't display that. Edited February 2, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[PhoenixAshen]

The part of your quote that I bolded is key - things like Threat Meters, DBM, and Damage Meters actually make Encounters much more of a "mindless grind" then if they didn't exist at all.

 

It's a mindless grind to most people to play that way, but to me and some others it's a way to challenge ourselves and enjoy the game on a different level.

 

Think of it this way, imagine playing Poker with all cards face up and visable - you have more information, but it also ruins the game.

 

Not the best example, but I'll bite. Do you know what made professional poker a mainstay on ESPN? The pocket cam and color commentary. The interesting thing is, those odds they show on TV, are floating around in the players heads all the time, to a pretty high degree of accuracy (minus the knowledge of hidden cards of course). Not a response to your example, but I think it fit the analogy.

 

 

Playing a game actually isn't about pure optimization of performance - it's about finding a "sweet spot" between skill, challenge, random outcomes, and "interesting choices" - and perfect information actually reduces the possibility of hitting that "sweet spot"

 

Take a little time and actually think about it... you might be surprised.

 

Believe me, I spend the majority of my day thinking about that very thing

EDIT: I should clarify. I think about how to make games fun, challenging "enough", and keep people coming back, but ironically I find enjoyment from things that I would never place as the main component of a game.

 

I'm not saying everyone should play the way I do, but I would like the option to play how I enjoy playing. Don't get me wrong, I play the game now and I enjoy it, but being able to do more (healing, damage, tanking) with less (gear, stats, time) is a lot of fun too.

Edited February 2, 2012 by PhoenixAshen

[Jandi]

On another note, yeah, it's kinda annoying to tank without having a clue as to how much threat you're doing. Then again, I think the threat generation in this game is too low for tanks when you get to high-end gear. Snipers and assassins can dish out so much single target damage that the ONLY way to keep agro is with taunts. You simply do not have the tools to create enough threat, you can have every single ability on cd, and still loose agro due to lucky crits.

 

And before you say "check your rotations" I say "check your talent trees". There is a very clear way to optimize threat, that's not the problem.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jandi

[DaxRendar]

It's a mindless grind to most people to play that way, but to me and some others it's a way to challenge ourselves and enjoy the game on a different level.

 

So, by your own words, BioWare should change the game so that more people think of the encounters as "mindless grind" so you can enjoy it more - did I get that right?

 

 

 

Not the best example, but I'll bite. Do you know what made professional poker a mainstay on ESPN? The pocket cam and color commentary. The interesting thing is, those odds they show on TV, are floating around in the players heads all the time, to a pretty high degree of accuracy (minus the knowledge of hidden cards of course). Not a response to your example, but I think it fit the analogy.

 

So to carry your analogy further - if we ever want Raiding to be a "Spectator Event" the audience should have access to complete information (Threat, Boss Actions, Group DPS vs Enrage, etc) but the actual participants shouldn't

 

 

Believe me, I spend the majority of my day thinking about that very thing

EDIT: I should clarify. I think about how to make games fun, challenging "enough", and keep people coming back, but ironically I find enjoyment from things that I would never place as the main component of a game.

 

I'm not saying everyone should play the way I do, but I would like the option to play how I enjoy playing. Don't get me wrong, I play the game now and I enjoy it, but being able to do more (healing, damage, tanking) with less (gear, stats, time) is a lot of fun too.

 

You can still get some of that by theorycrafting and actual playtesting - you won't have perfect knowledge but you will still be able to improve.

 

To me "Holy Trinity Threat" as a mechanic is pretty flawed and uninteresting anyway. It causes far more problems than it solves, but if it is going to be in the game, I think it's a far better and more interesting mechanic when it's uncertain and can be lost rather than perfectly known and managed.

[PhoenixAshen]

So, by your own words, BioWare should change the game so that more people think of the encounters as "mindless grind" so you can enjoy it more - did I get that right?

 

Actually, you didn't get it right at all. If it's ever implemented, it should definitely be something that can be turned off. Also, people don't have to watch it like a hawk, waiting for the moment they can hit their next mega damage ability. It can just be another aspect of the game, like managing force, or heat, or whatever each class uses.

 

 

So to carry your analogy further - if we ever want Raiding to be a "Spectator Event" the audience should have access to complete information (Threat, Boss Actions, Group DPS vs Enrage, etc) but the actual participants shouldn't

Not my analogy, you started it

 

Give me access to the formula that determines threat generated by each ability, but without the real-time meter, and I'll be quite happy.

 

You can still get some of that by theorycrafting and actual playtesting - you won't have perfect knowledge but you will still be able to improve.

 

To me "Holy Trinity Threat" as a mechanic is pretty flawed and uninteresting anyway. It causes far more problems than it solves, but if it is going to be in the game, I think it's a far better and more interesting mechanic when it's uncertain and can be lost rather than perfectly known and managed.

 

Yes, and I do this to some extent. I prefer the hard numbers though. I'm like a number junkie, trying to get my next fix :tweak:

[Volksworgen]

Hmm you make a claim then call me a liar. You are epic win.

 

Threat meters are so unnecessary in swtor, there are no 40 man raids against mobs so big that all you can see of them is their knee.

 

let go of the crutch tiny tim, you can walk all on your own now.

 

You are right, this game's end game has to be of the quality of WoW's BC(Screw the expansions afterwards) to get threat meters, but sadly it's going to take Bioware some time to get there. You are a serious fanboy and probably one of the worst players for defending this game against threat meters. You just don't know end game or know how a real raid encounter works.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Volksworgen

[Dazgra]

Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with this community? OP asks a genuine question and he gets called out as a 'baddie' 'wow noob' etc. etc.

 

OP is right, there is no clear way to know how much threat you have, losing aggro is not an acceptable way to judge this.

[Jandi]

Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with this community? OP asks a genuine question and he gets called out as a 'baddie' 'wow noob' etc. etc.

 

OP is right, there is no clear way to know how much threat you have, losing aggro is not an acceptable way to judge this.

 

It's pointless to even argue really. These people have obviously never done anything even remotely intense and hard content, where losing agro totals to 30minutes of time wasted, a total of 80k in repairs, a lot more on adrenals and people getting annoyed and losing focus.

 

It's meaningless in FP content where nothing happens when you lose agro. In nightmare mode though? Yeah, no.

 

EDIT: I'm not talking about the current content, I'm talking about the possibility of consequences in future content, when the dev team actually matures to make interesting boss mechanics.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jandi

[Aramyth]

Do you really need a threat meter to tell you how to play?

 

If you have a meter, you'll have a numerical value telling you to use a taunt on a mob before you lose threat. If you don't have a meter, you have a visual indicator (the mob turns to face who it's attacking) and then taunt. The difference, if you're good, is maybe 3 seconds max.

 

This is how we played FFXI, a game where mages had so little health they died in one hit on most boss fights. You know what they did if they pulled aggro and survived? By golly, they stopped doing high damage for a few seconds.

 

Holding threat isn't JUST ABOUT THE TANK, it's about all members in the group being aware of what they can do under the threshold of the tanks ability to hold threat. DPS classes are designed to be able to pull threat off tanks easily with high damage, because this isn't just about the tank, it's about the whole group. If you're a squishy melee and you're getting hit, 9/10 it's your fault.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Aramyth

[harpuax]

Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with this community? OP asks a genuine question and he gets called out as a 'baddie' 'wow noob' etc. etc.

 

OP is right, there is no clear way to know how much threat you have, losing aggro is not an acceptable way to judge this.

 

Well said. Often if you have lost agro it is too late, as the boss turns and 1 shots someone. Would it be ok if health bars showed either 100 or 0 percent with nothing in between, for healers? I tank just fine in the game currently, but there is nothing wrong with a feature that can help me tank better.