Anni Marauders getting a buff...on test now proof inside.

[Hoseman]

Fine you win.

 

 

 

 

jesus......

[Kibaken]

wegotabad@ssoverhere.avi

 

/popcorn

 

 

On topic: Considering they have all the calculations and metrics at their fingertips I'm going to go with BioWare.

 

Also, this:

 

If you hit 500k+ in Alderaan, you got some real baddies playing.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kibaken

[EasymodeX]

If you hit 500k+ in Alderaan, you got some real baddies playing.

[Ultratron]

I am not trying to calculate a dps increase/decrease here I'm simply correctly the tons of posts saying that post patch our dots will crit for less damage with very basic math.

With a base Dot tick value of 1000 damage (just chose it because it's an easy number) before talents. This is assuming the crits multiply damage x2 (once again this is chosen because it's an easy number).

 

Pre patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1360

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2720

 

Post patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1150

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2990

 

 

 

 

Show your pre-patch work:

 

 

1000(base) x 30% (bleedout), 1000(base) x 6%(Hemorrage) multiplied and added together individually = 1360 (talented base) x 2(crit) = 2720(talented crit)

 

 

Show your post-patch work:

 

 

1000(base) x 15% (hemorrage) = 1150(talented bas) x 30% on crit(bleedout) x 2(crit) = 2990

 

 

 

This is a VERY basic version of the actual equation but simply put, you will dot tick for less and dot crit for more after patch. I won't say if it's a dps decrease or increase for PvP because you can't factor in everyones crit chance or uptime on berserk but long story short, no matter what the exact values are:

 

Our dots should hit for slightly less and crit for slightly more given the information provided and that bioware does their talent calculations like most other mmo's.

 

 

*PS my personal opinion is that it will be a slight DPS inscrease based on the fact that most geared Marauder hold a pretty high dot crit chance, and berserk uptime is very good in this spec. But MOSTLY because Bioware is smarter than all of us and they have the numbers sitting in front of them as well as a team dedicated to crunching them.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Ultratron

[Qeuzolt]

You're pretty good....

For a baddie.

You stream needs less premades and pocket healers for me to take you seriously.

That and your elitist snob demeanor twords other players makes me sick.

Go choke on some gluten.

Hold that thought I'll report myself before you report me.

 

That is not stamp that your talking to it is some one else, http://www.twitch.tv/glutenfreegaming, please don't associate this elitist jerk with a good marauder player and a great streamer.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Qeuzolt

[Crawfishies]

Can we please stay on topic on

whether this is a nerf or buff?

 

 

wegotabad@ssoverhere.avi

 

/popcorn

 

 

On topic: Considering they have all the calculations and metrics at their fingertips I'm going to go with BioWare.

 

Also, this:

 

Since we're at it,

can you pass me some popcorn too? :D:D:D

Getting more action here than at work.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Crawfishies

[EasymodeX]

With a base Dot tick value of 1000 damage (just chose it because it's an easy number) before talents. This is assuming the crits multiply damage x2 (once again this is chosen because it's an easy number).

 

Pre patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1360

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2720

 

Post patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1150

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2990

 

Uh, no.

 

Normal surge rates are plus or minus 80%, not +100%.

 

So prepatch crit = 2448

Post patch crit = 2415, unless they use a "x total damage when you crit" calculation for the talent, in which case it would be 2691

[CrazyAl]

back on topic ... (edit: guess we are back on topic already)

 

so the math we are seeing shows a nerf, but bioware says its a buff ... so maybe our math is not right (not the actual arithmetic, but our assumptions about the formula)

 

we are assuming that a 30% increase to bleed crits is essentially a surge boost on crits

 

what if its different, what if it calculates surge first, then modifies the result as an extra 30%??

 

example:

 

currently ...

 

100 x 1.36 x 1.85 = 251.6

 

 

after change ...

we are assuming ...

 

100 x 1.15 x 2.15 = 247.25

 

but what if its ...

 

100 x 1.15 x 1.85 x 1.3 = 276.575

 

it would give us the "slight buff" that BW is insisting we get, while using the correct modifiers, just in a different way

 

 

over 1000 ticks, 30% base crit rate (45% w/ talents) you get

 

current

100 x 1.36 x 550 = 74,800 +

100 x 1.36 x 1.85 x 450 = 113,220

total = 188,020

 

vs.

revised new

100 x 1.15 x 550 = 63,250 +

100 x 1.15 x 1.85 x 1.3 x 450 = 124,458.75

total = 187,708.75

 

thats ~0.2% decrease in damage (for all intents and purposes it is equal), factor in berserk and your looking at a solid buff, which increases even more with crit and surge

 

i bet with lesser gear (numbers for crit and surge are based on my gear mostly champ with a few BM) it would be a slight nerf, but with decent gear and berserk youre lookin at a buff

 

assuming this is how they are factoring in the 30% crit damage buff

 

edit: also, im using a full 36% increase from current talents, instead of the bugged hemorrhage at just 4% because according to my tooltips im getting the full 6%, i dont see the hemorrhage bug, i havent tested it on a player but if it is bugged it would work in our favor with this revised formula

Edited February 2, 2012 by CrazyAl

[Pappus]

Hahha. I ask because on beta, my marauder had 33% more damage on the DoT part than my sentinel when i created him on live servers. Ofc i thought "well, they nerfed it, it's ok". Now i read somebody saying their tooltip is around 1300 (something, no sentinel can), and i want to know if the guy was just bluffing or you marauders can confirm it.

 

1281 over 6 is the dot part without juyo stacked or anything just warrior buff and stim is up.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Pappus

[EasymodeX]

Yes, I already mentioned this in the thread I referenced earlier in this thread, including mathszs.

 

Also re-stated above. Hrhrhr.

 

To re-cap, there are two ways to apply the concept of "CRITICAL BONUS DAMAGES".

 

1. "More critical damage".

 

This is where your 1.85x becomes 2.15x.

 

2. "More damage when you crit".

 

This is where your total damage for the strike is increased by 30% when you crit. So your 1.85x becomes 1.85*1.3x = 2.4x.

 

 

Note: This is going to bite us/BioWare in the *** with gear inflation at some later date if crit rates go up noticeably past where they currently are.

Edited February 2, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Laati]

With a base Dot tick value of 1000 damage (just chose it because it's an easy number) before talents. This is assuming the crits multiply damage x2 (once again this is chosen because it's an easy number).

 

Pre patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1360

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2720

 

Post patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1150

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2990

 

 

 

 

Show your pre-patch work:

 

 

1000(base) x 30% (bleedout), 1000(base) x 6%(Hemorrage) multiplied and added together individually = 1360 (talented base) x 2(crit) = 2720(talented crit)

 

 

Show your post-patch work:

 

 

1000(base) x 15% (hemorrage) = 1150(talented bas) x 30% on crit(bleedout) x 2(crit) = 2990

 

 

 

 

Okay, assumptions are fine, however.

From looking at your post-patch work, this is assuming the 30% on crit from bleedout is in fact a further multiplier as opposed to just adding onto the surge. However, if this 30% is just a further addition into our surge we would see:

 

1000(base) x 15% (hemorrage) = 1150(talented bas) x 2.3 (crit + bleedout) = 2645.

 

Therefore resulting in a lower damage output.

 

So I guess the question we must aim at the devs, is as to when bleedout is working correctly, is it an addition to your current surge bonus (and therefore your critical multiplier), or whether it is a multiplier acting independently?

[CrazyAl]

Yes, I already mentioned this in the thread I referenced earlier in this thread, including mathszs.

 

Also re-stated above. Hrhrhr.

 

To re-cap, there are two ways to apply the concept of "CRITICAL BONUS DAMAGES".

 

1. "More critical damage".

 

This is where your 1.85x becomes 2.15x.

 

2. "More damage when you crit".

 

This is where your total damage for the strike is increased by 30% when you crit. So your 1.85x becomes 1.85*1.3x = 2.4x.

 

 

Note: This is going to bite us/BioWare in the *** with gear inflation at some later date if crit rates go up noticeably past where they currently are.

 

so i see, i was typing when you posted that one above mine

 

but yea, im going to go ahead and assume that BW isnt not blatanly lying to us, that they are having bleedout modify total damage after it has been modified by surge

[Ultratron]

Okay, assumptions are fine, however.

From looking at your post-patch work, this is assuming the 30% on crit from bleedout is in fact a further multiplier as opposed to just adding onto the surge. However, if this 30% is just a further addition into our surge we would see:

 

1000(base) x 15% (hemorrage) = 1150(talented bas) x 2.3 (crit + bleedout) = 2645.

 

Therefore resulting in a lower damage output.

 

So I guess the question we must aim at the devs, is as to when bleedout is working correctly, is it an addition to your current surge bonus (and therefore your critical multiplier), or whether it is a multiplier acting independently?

 

 

 

Agreed, it's all speculative, Bioware says it will increase so I will trust them... for now.

 

Unfortunately because Bioware refuses to give out combat logs (IMO this is in part so they have free reign and can't be proven wrong) we may never know, either way I don't think it will be a massive change, especially in PvP.

 

This change wasn't really intended to increase Mara damage, it was intended to fix a bugged talent without causing a big DPS loss. IMO Mara is in a pretty good spot atm(PvP) aside from a couple of needed tweaks and I don't envision them being changed a whole lot in the near future.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Ultratron

[Chesterinex]

I've thought about this and discussed what changes could be made to marauders and sentinels to make them more viable in pvp, more desirable in pve, and more enjoyable overall.

 

I mentioned to them...what if you had a battle charge on a 30s cooldown? Similar to Slayers from Warhammer, or warriors in Rift,or the inquisitor/consular current sprint ability.

Unanimous reaction, in where everyone thought that was what was missing.

 

Why?

In PvP it's a gap closer as well as an escape mechanism.

In PvE it's useful during boss fights to avoid certain mechanics at key points, and reduce the hindrance on dps loss in comparison to rdps.

 

The other alteration was the heal debuff. It's too low, and its fairly ineffectual against well geared and well played players.

[Ultratron]

I've thought about this and discussed what changes could be made to marauders and sentinels to make them more viable in pvp, more desirable in pve, and more enjoyable overall.

 

I mentioned to them...what if you had a battle charge on a 30s cooldown? Similar to Slayers from Warhammer, or warriors in Rift,or the inquisitor/consular current sprint ability.

Unanimous reaction, in where everyone thought that was what was missing.

 

Why?

In PvP it's a gap closer as well as an escape mechanism.

In PvE it's useful during boss fights to avoid certain mechanics at key points, and reduce the hindrance on dps loss in comparison to rdps.

 

The other alteration was the heal debuff. It's too low, and its fairly ineffectual against well geared and well played players.

 

 

Not really the best thread for this, but we don't need another escape mechanism (we already have camo + tons of other cd's), and we have a 12 second talented charge in Anni that is plenty for closing gaps. The only change I would like to see is a root on ravage, and maybe the GCD taken off of Barrage.

[Mujina]

its funny how you are basing this so called nerf off crit damage. well lets speak a little facts here first of all your BASE damage is going up.

 

2nd if we are getting more then the listed 30% bonus damage to bleed crits, ITS A FIX NOT A NERF.

 

Lets pretend that you were getting lower then the listed 30% you would all be crying foul and demanding that it get fixt 3 years ago. YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Its a fix NOT A NERF.

 

3rd to argue that we are getting nerfed because our crit damage is going to be lower, wow thats just foolish. 1 i don't know of anyone with 50% or higher crit percentage and you are basically all assuming that you are going to crit like mad which you are not. If you have over 25% right now you are doing pretty good.

 

facts are your BASE damage is going to be higher which means every time you hit you are doing more damage per hit. Please fix your math to include a 1 in 4 to possible 1 in 3 chance of criting. Do a run of 100 stirkes and see where your math is at then. Stop with this stupid assumption that you will crit 100% of the time which is what many of you are basing your math on.

[Soulfighter]

its funny how you are basing this so called nerf off crit damage. well lets speak a little facts here first of all your BASE damage is going up.

 

2nd if we are getting more then the listed 30% bonus damage to bleed crits, ITS A FIX NOT A NERF.

 

Lets pretend that you were getting lower then the listed 30% you would all be crying foul and demanding that it get fixt 3 years ago. YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Its a fix NOT A NERF.

 

3rd to argue that we are getting nerfed because our crit damage is going to be lower, wow thats just foolish. 1 i don't know of anyone with 50% or higher crit percentage and you are basically all assuming that you are going to crit like mad which you are not. If you have over 25% right now you are doing pretty good.

 

facts are your BASE damage is going to be higher which means every time you hit you are doing more damage per hit. Please fix your math to include a 1 in 4 to possible 1 in 3 chance of criting. Do a run of 100 stirkes and see where your math is at then. Stop with this stupid assumption that you will crit 100% of the time which is what many of you are basing your math on.

 

HI I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT BUT IM STILL GOING TO WRITE A POST AND NOBODY CAN STOP ME

 

 

 

i wish we could downvote posts to make them disappear

 

fyi you ******* **** our base dmg will be lowered 15%

[Keldaur]

1281 over 6 is the dot part without juyo stacked or anything just warrior buff and stim is up.

 

Thank you.

 

One more question if you don't mind guys. What's the regular damage on your ticks when fully stacked juyo ?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Keldaur

[CrazyAl]

its funny how you are basing this so called nerf off crit damage. well lets speak a little facts here first of all your BASE damage is going up.

 

2nd if we are getting more then the listed 30% bonus damage to bleed crits, ITS A FIX NOT A NERF.

 

Lets pretend that you were getting lower then the listed 30% you would all be crying foul and demanding that it get fixt 3 years ago. YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Its a fix NOT A NERF.

 

3rd to argue that we are getting nerfed because our crit damage is going to be lower, wow thats just foolish. 1 i don't know of anyone with 50% or higher crit percentage and you are basically all assuming that you are going to crit like mad which you are not. If you have over 25% right now you are doing pretty good.

 

facts are your BASE damage is going to be higher which means every time you hit you are doing more damage per hit. Please fix your math to include a 1 in 4 to possible 1 in 3 chance of criting. Do a run of 100 stirkes and see where your math is at then. Stop with this stupid assumption that you will crit 100% of the time which is what many of you are basing your math on.

 

you sir, are misinformed

 

the 30% bonus talent ... bleedout ... is bugged

 

it is giving the bonus to you BASE damage, so right now we are getting a 36% bonus to base damage, after the change it will be a 15% bonus, so yea, base damage is going down

 

and yes, it is a "fix" but fixes can be nerfs ... changes that make your damage/healing/tanking ability go down = nerf, in common usage of the word

 

 

edit: also, my bleed crit is 43% unbuffed, add in IA buff thats 48% factor in uptime of berserk and bingo! >50% crit chance on bleeds

Edited February 3, 2012 by CrazyAl

[Ultratron]

its funny how you are basing this so called nerf off crit damage. well lets speak a little facts here first of all your BASE damage is going up.

 

2nd if we are getting more then the listed 30% bonus damage to bleed crits, ITS A FIX NOT A NERF.

 

Lets pretend that you were getting lower then the listed 30% you would all be crying foul and demanding that it get fixt 3 years ago. YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Its a fix NOT A NERF.

 

3rd to argue that we are getting nerfed because our crit damage is going to be lower, wow thats just foolish. 1 i don't know of anyone with 50% or higher crit percentage and you are basically all assuming that you are going to crit like mad which you are not. If you have over 25% right now you are doing pretty good.

 

facts are your BASE damage is going to be higher which means every time you hit you are doing more damage per hit. Please fix your math to include a 1 in 4 to possible 1 in 3 chance of criting. Do a run of 100 stirkes and see where your math is at then. Stop with this stupid assumption that you will crit 100% of the time which is what many of you are basing your math on.

 

 

haha, how does it feel to make that long of a post and still get every single point 100% completely wrong... you sir should try reading, and give up writing all together. Thanks for the laugh though

[Deviltreh]

Yay first slight nerf for Annihilation. About time.

[Precurso]

I am not trying to calculate a dps increase/decrease here I'm simply correctly the tons of posts saying that post patch our dots will crit for less damage with very basic math.

With a base Dot tick value of 1000 damage (just chose it because it's an easy number) before talents. This is assuming the crits multiply damage x2 (once again this is chosen because it's an easy number).

 

Pre patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1360

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2720

 

Post patch talents:

You will be doing a base tick of: 1150

You will be doing a crit tick of: 2990

 

 

 

 

Show your pre-patch work:

 

1000(base) x 30% (bleedout), 1000(base) x 6%(Hemorrage) multiplied and added together individually = 1360 (talented base) x 2(crit) = 2720(talented crit)

 

Show your post-patch work:

 

1000(base) x 15% (hemorrage) = 1150(talented bas) x 30% on crit(bleedout) x 2(crit) = 2990

 

 

sigh..

Serıously, you don't know the formulas. "Increase in crit damage" skills are NOT multiplicative, they're ADDITIVE!!!

 

For the love of god!!! THEY ADD TO SURGE STAT FOR A PARTICULAR SKILL!

So it's NOT 1150(talented bas) x 30% on crit(bleedout) x 2(crit)

it's 1150(talented bas) x 2,3 = 2645

 

But this x2 is a HUGE base surge you took. With best gear I've seen is around 80-85% surge

 

Bleed Tick = 100

Base Surge = 80%

Surge on Tick Crit (old) =80%

Surge on Tick Crit (new) =80%+30%

dmg multiplier (old): 1,36

dmg multiplier (new): 1,15

 

Old: 1000*1,36*1,8 = 2448

New: 1000*1,15*2,1 = 2415

 

Once again, you don't multiply, you add! surge ratings together to find the new surge.

If your base surge is 50% and a skill increases your X attack's crit dmg by Y% then your X crit dmg will become X*(1,5+Y)

NOT X*1,5*Y

Edited February 3, 2012 by Precurso

[Hizoka]

sigh..

Serıously, you don't know the formulas. "Increase in crit damage" skills are NOT multiplicative, they're ADDITIVE!!!

 

For the love of god!!! THEY ADD TO SURGE STAT FOR A PARTICULAR SKILL!

So it's NOT 1150(talented bas) x 30% on crit(bleedout) x 2(crit)

it's 1150(talented bas) x 2,3 = 2645

 

But this x2 is a HUGE base surge you took. With best gear I've seen is around 80-85% surge

 

Bleed Tick = 100

Base Surge = 80%

Surge on Tick Crit (old) =80%

Surge on Tick Crit (new) =80%+30%

dmg multiplier (old): 1,36

dmg multiplier (new): 1,15

 

Old: 1000*1,36*1,8 = 2448

New: 1000*1,15*2,1 = 2415

 

Once again, you don't multiply, you add! surge ratings together to find the new surge.

If your base surge is 50% and a skill increases your X attack's crit dmg by Y% then your X crit dmg will become X*(1,5+Y)

NOT X*1,5*Y

 

i have nearly 90% crit bonus before adding in the extra 30% from bleed out. Just because you do not have the gear doesn't mean others don't.

[Precurso]

i have nearly 90% crit bonus before adding in the extra 30% from bleed out. Just because you do not have the gear doesn't mean others don't.

 

I was talking about BASE surge from you char screen, NOT adding the skills from juyo etc

big deal you have 10% more than what I used in the calculation

Whatever your surge is, it doesn't change the fact that the the new bleed crits will be lower

So stop derailing the subject with your uber stats.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Qishari
insults

[Vetril]

I wonder if the community split within marauders / sentinels was due to that unintended buff to the Annihilation / Watchman tree. I'm curious to hear what impression will the patch leave on the yay-sayers side. Edited February 3, 2012 by Vetril