GruulTapul Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Shalashasa, do you have a stream or something? I'm sorry if I missed it but I'd be interested to see you in action. And nobody should say anything about class balance in PvP without having every single Skill keybound, that should be clear to everybody . You simply cannot compete otherwise (okay, I was going to add unless you play X, but I better shut up now ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalashasa Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Good luck in your warzones, by all means use whatever spec allows you to play your style, but coming in here and claiming the spec is poor because you're bad at it just makes you look like a fool. That would make sense if I was actually bad. The point is im probably better with Deception than most of the people who swear by it. The point isnt that you can do warzones with it. the point is its not not meant for pvp. I think you must of not read anything that was said in these posts. As for madness I explained that even madness works better in pvp than deception already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikeQ Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 as for the nameless guy that says i ran from him. He didnt show up... Anyways trolls would be trolls... I think the problem is the name Assassin. I think they gave it with the intention of keeping up with the lore of Darth Maul who wielded a double-bladed lightsaber and who was an Assassin. Yet I believe they didnt have the intent on making an Assassin Assassinate anything. Some of us actually work for a living. Kaladin, you also run from my friend Kojimei all the time. You can't do **** without your whole guild there to heal your ***. You're not good, you just have a lot of free time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XParoleX Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Darkness sins fall into the same category as those people who thought riftblade/reaver was a viable spec in rift and who play as prot pvp in WoW. It's a gimmick 1v1 spec that can basically only do 1 thing: force non healing classes with little or already used cd's into a 1v1 in some dank corner and slowly kill them. Sure, your numbers may look good in a warzone because increased survivability, great sin cooldowns, and the fact that any players who know what they're doing effectively ignore you till the rest of your team is dead means that ... hey, you rarely die. The problem is that once you finish being impressed with yourself and your medal count, you realize that you offer very little to a cohesive team unless you're running a huttball or something (and, lets be honest, any sin can slap on dark charge, get past the first flame jet, and be home free for an unstoppable score so you don't really have a monopoly on that faction of play either). Low dps from darkness specs results in an inablility to kill any healer that knows what they're doing and a similar inability to clear out cap nodes and doors fast enough to guarantee a good cap/plant. Deception is the way to go because it HAS the burst and the lockdown to take down healers, which really are the linchpin of any team that isn't just a faceroll victory. You have amazing survivability in the form of cooldowns, and can basically survive or escape any situation as long as you use your skills wisely. Bottom line is that if you're having trouble being successful as deception, you probably just don't know how to fully utilize the tools of both the spec and class in general since you've been running around as a tank being healbotted for so long all you know how to do now is spike thrash thrash shock. The key to successful deception play is not spamming your abilities, but timing your burst with a string of control to guarantee a kill. You're not an operative, so you don't open with burst. Use voltaic slash and your standard maul proc strikes until you force a heal, lock them out with jolt, pop cd's and unload your discharge and shock for burst (with cd's you should be able to shock for about 5k, possible chain shock for about 2k, and then discharge for about 5k... giving you a possible good 12k dmg in 2 gcd's that autocrit with recklessness), follow with a low slash to allow for another maul, electrocute into an asassinate. If they're somehow still alive you can vanish into a spike or even vanish into a sap to fill out their resolve bar and then finish them off with another maul or whatever (your jolt will be back up by this time also). The strength of our spec is that our lockdown skills generate very little resolve, allowing us to lock down for longer durrations than any other class in the game. People just have to realize that we're not pre-nerf operatives and we don't take someone from 100-0 in a burst (unless they're undergeared). We pressure into a position where we can lockdown and burst from, say.. 70-0 or 60-0. You are just so bad I don't know what to even say. Please no one listen to this guy as he obviously has no idea what he is talking about. Running around in stealth looking for a single target or someone below 50% you can burst down in deception is just bad and doesn't help your team in any way. Running a 23/0/18 spec or something close allows you good damage and great mobility. You can pretty much turn the outcome of a Warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yadeniel Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'm not particularly interested in your opinion on deception, but it would be interesting to see you stream a few games of you playing darkness. Since you're so awesome and all I dont need to show my skill. As deception i own hard, i dont have any problems, that doesnt mean it is a competitive build, it sucks, and needs to be improved Just my 2 cents.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalashasa Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Some of us actually work for a living. Kaladin, you also run from my friend Kojimei all the time. You can't do **** without your whole guild there to heal your ***. You're not good, you just have a lot of free time. never heard of any of you im in ilum now. less talk more fighting Edited February 2, 2012 by Shalashasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renvious Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Deception is mediocre. It has no direction. You're just a terrible mix of damage and control. You rely on gear, procs, relics, spells and Biochem to do any kind of worthwhile damage (you're not good for anything else). You have no strong gap closers and Force Slow / Speed don't count because they are negligible to every other class in the game. A "Shadowstep" ability in the Deception tree would go a long way into improving the class for both PVE and PVP. Increase the CD on Force Speed while keeping it the same for the other two specs (move the talent up in the Darkness tree). You're just deluding yourself if you believe you're doing any better than Darkness or Madness for PVE and PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzionR Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 lol yea im a terrible player... yet nobody and i mean NOBODY can beat me in my darkness spec NOBODY can beat me Madness spec... But yea I agree with you Deception is garbage http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww319/FuzionLotro/Screenshot_2012-02-02_14_23_06_874830.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The flying yo-yo is a giant 'kill me' stamped on your head. The spec does enough damage that you don't want to leave a decep sin unchecked, and it's squishy enough that it's easy enough to focus down. If you want survivable single target pew pew, roll an annihilation mara. The only useful sin spec at 50 is darkness. Madness is cute but is better on the sorc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulvan Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 1. you dont have less dmg 2. you have less survivability than any other class 3. you have enough cc the only deception prblem in pvp is that you cannot mitigate any degree of focus fire. you are a great 1v1 class, you can even do good sustained dmg for a limited time period. but, you need support. you need guard and a healer to go into the heat of things. otherwise, be patient and pick your battles. i know it gets frustrating sometimes, but thats how it goes as deception sin. Excuse me what cc electrocute? whirlwind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxosz Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 its not the spec people its your role you need to learn it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure what role a deception sin is supposed to fill. The operative does better burst, enabling it to pick off the old and wounded easier. The mara has better sustained dps, survivability, and leghumping capabilities. Edited February 2, 2012 by Kllashaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yadeniel Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'm not sure what role a deception sin is supposed to fill. The operative does better burst, enabling it to pick off the old and wounded easier. The mara has better sustained dps, survivability, and leghumping capabilities. We can guard and taunt while doing dps and some CC. Very usefull if u are Darkness spec, as deception u can guard a friend but u wont last too long if someone focus u, even if u switch to tank stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalashasa Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) NOBODY can beat me Madness spec... But yea I agree with you Deception is garbage http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww319/FuzionLotro/Screenshot_2012-02-02_14_23_06_874830.jpg very nice here is one i saved http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e170/nmaxime/14medal.png Edited February 2, 2012 by Shalashasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornaker Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 yes but i see creeping terror that is a madness skill, so he isn 't in darkness spec Madness ftw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 We can guard and taunt while doing dps and some CC. Very usefull if u are Darkness spec, as deception u can guard a friend but u wont last too long if someone focus u, even if u switch to tank stance. Yup, the difference in survivability between dark charge vs. surging/lightning is huge, on top of everything you lose out from in the darkness tree. Even worse, with the latest batch, hybrid sins become less viable. The sin is just too squishy outside of dark charge, and doesn't have enough dps+utility to justify deception in PvP. In a premade, you'll be okay with a guard and heals, but a premade makes pretty much any 31spec viable vs pugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalashasa Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Yup, the difference in survivability between dark charge vs. surging/lightning is huge, on top of everything you lose out from in the darkness tree. Even worse, with the latest batch, hybrid sins become less viable. The sin is just too squishy outside of dark charge, and doesn't have enough dps+utility to justify deception in PvP. In a premade, you'll be okay with a guard and heals, but a premade makes pretty much any 31spec viable vs pugs. exactly...I really dont think bioware needs to up the defense in Deception though. Leave the high burst dps squishy...thats fine. Hell take off the 30% defense bonus from insulation if you want. What Deception needs is utility skills. It needs a lower cooldown on force cloak so we have an oportunity to use it at least every 1 to 2 encounters. Force cloak, when spec'd in Fade, should be 1:00min cd. What the heck does a casting/mid range tank need with Disjunction?!?!?!? The only tree that should have that skill is the pure melee tree like Deception. They need to make Deception PVP viable. We are Assassins not juggernauts. Edited February 2, 2012 by Shalashasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Honestly Force Cloak could be on a 10 second cooldown and it probably wouldn't do anything interesting because Assassins have no extra DPS option from opener. This isn't like an Operative where each time they vanish they come back with a Hidden Strike or quickly heal themselves up to full. I guess you get the extra Force regen, but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggawatt Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Look, deception isn't that bad. I run around in PVP and kill plenty of people, and I only actually die when there is 2+ people after me. Just learn when to use your defensive cooldowns. Or switch up your rotation, and when they use their defensive stuff, pop force cloak and chill til they try and heal, and then go right back at it with the increased force regen. Learn who to hit when, and don't try and hit anyone and everyone. a deception assassin is typically an opportunist. keep your force regen up and use a smart rotation as opposed to the one with maximum dps. use force slow, keep their back infront of you. Don't blow more force than needed (i.e. never use maul when the 50% force talent is up). Interrupt on the skills that are the most threatening. There are ways to easily survive. Just try different styles of play. Last but definitely not least...play to win. Don't just run around killing. Be sneaky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invitcted Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The sin is just too squishy outside of dark charge, and doesn't have enough dps+utility to justify deception in PvP. In a premade, you'll be okay with a guard and heals, but a premade makes pretty much any 31spec viable vs pugs. While I agree our innate survivability is low and possibly the lowest of any class, I think the issue is at least half caused by off spec healing being over the top. I mean why as a half tanking AC are we no allowed any use of our tanking skills to increase survivability whilst the half healing ACs are allowed to use their heals which are too good baseline. Static Barrier is a classic example; Anyone who played lowbie pvp in wow will remember that the team with the higher PW:S potential at lower levels auto wins because it's like giving everyone a 75% life buff. Static barrier is the same if less extreme, why is there a talent that buffs it in the dps tree? Its innate absorption should be uselessly low and the talent that makes it function properly should be deep in the corruption tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) I agree with you guys that it's probably a utility, not a 'needs more pew pew', issue that's hampering deception sins. I'm not saying that deception sins are terrible, but they feel underwhelming compared to the jugg, mara, ptech, and op. I'm not going into a deep spec comparison since it seems like most of you guys have a good sense of the game and multiple 40-50s. I really liked my sin but shelved it for a mara and sorc since those classes both bring a lot more utility and survivability to the table. I thought the 'vanish = white flag' metaphor was pretty amusing since that mirrors how I feel about the skill. Sometimes I'd use it to proc extra energy to guarantee a kill, but for the most part, I'd need to use it to get the heck out of dodge. I found myself using force camo on the mara much differently, as I could basically use it as a pvp aggro drop (people have such short attention spans that they'd forget about you and tab target onwards), and in between saber ward (+cloak of pain), undying rage, obfuscate, and dot loading -> berserk -> force choke, you could keep on trucking for awhile, especially with an easy rage builder relaunch through force charge. The main issue is that my sin feels like there's a significant dearth of strategic options in combat, and is a very simplistic class to play. You can see the deception rotation coming a mile away and it's not difficult to shutdown a deception sin. The only thing that makes them dangerous is the amount of damage they can frontload after 2 VS if everything procs and crits, but if you can survive that, cleaning up a sin is very straightforward. Edited February 3, 2012 by Kllashaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) I don't think Marauders plays that differently from a Deception Assassin, but they start with more armor, so are harder to kill and actually get to stick around to do more stuff. Deception's problem basically boils down to the fact that if you're dead you can't DPS, and you don't get to convince the enemy that you're not a juicy target. If someone sees the yoyo lightsaber, they're going to gun you down since you're probably the easiest person to kill in the game so there's absolutely no drawback to dropping you first. Edited February 3, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Survivability is a big downside to the deception sin, and makes it challenging for a lot of people to play in solo PvP. It's not as noticeable until the 50 bracket. People place far too much importance on the mitigation capabilities of light vs medium and medium vs heavy armor. It's the CDs that make the mara, not the medium armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Survivability is a big downside to the deception sin, and makes it challenging for a lot of people to play in solo PvP. It's not as noticeable until the 50 bracket. People place far too much importance on the mitigation capabilities of light vs medium and medium vs heavy armor. It's the CDs that make the mara, not the medium armor. Force Shroud is generally a lot better than Undying Rage in most circumstances unless you went 31 deception so that you can't extend its duration for 5s, since it refreshes much faster. I'm not aware of any other exceptional survival tools a Marauder has over the Assassin. That said, giving up extended Force Shroud really does kill your survivality, which will happen if you're 31 in Deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) The assassin is a joke when it comes to defensive cooldowns compared to the Marauder. Read up on:- Cloak of Pain- Force Camouflage- Force Charge- Force Choke- Intimidating Roar- Obfuscate- Saber Ward- Undying Rage- Self-healing through berserk (then go right back into instant berserk with frenzy -> berserk) on anni tree, giving 24% of your max health back at minimum (most likely more with a 30%+ crit rate) The two aren't even within spitting distance of each other. There's a reason why the marauder is the best 1v1 class in the game in the hands of a top skilled player. Edited February 3, 2012 by Kllashaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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