Deception is NOT for pvp

[Cloryan]

I love Deception, but love being competitive as well, just not sure if madness is better do to the aoe / ranged abilities it gives!

 

I thought I read that the deception build is far more gear dependent or is that madness?

[punman]

maul like crazy

 

dear god make it stop

[Shalashasa]

A darkness/deception hybrid spec does as much or more burst than full deception and has much better force regen for prolonged combat increasing overall usefulness and survivability.

 

 

Being able to come out of stealth, pop backout and have 18.4 regen to maul like crazy does very nice burst.

 

 

Deception does do nice damage in PvP but having guard and much higher armor along with spike and force pull IMO outweighs the DPS increase.

 

you are absolutely right. Deception, by itself gives you like 4 good moves. and only 2 of them are better than any other tree.

 

You can play Darkness like a Deception Assassin but you cant play Deception like Darkness.

 

There is a huge problem with this. Look at the Deception tree. Go through each one of the skills. Think about the ones that really help in pvp. There is like 5 of them that really do anything decent. Then there is like 3 of them that do anything remarkable.

 

The problem isnt one to be ignored. Im sure not too many people picked the Assassin thinking they will be in the front lines tanking in battle.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Shalashasa

[Zanxscarce]

I love Deception, but love being competitive as well, just not sure if madness is better do to the aoe / ranged abilities it gives!

 

I thought I read that the deception build is far more gear dependent or is that madness?

 

Deception is better than madness in my opinion

 

The problem i see with madness is that its dependent on death field, which is a pain to target during a fight, and casting crushing darkness, which makes you sit still for a sec (granted you don't have the buff that makes it instant). Madness is meant to literally bleed your opponent to death, in which case they die slowly, and have a shot at killing you in the meantime if you're still around. Also, many classes have "cleansing" affects that get rid of DoTS effects. I know assassins have one of the best self cleanse skills. Its fun to play in PvE though, because you don't have to worry with having a tank and healer around, something that is VERY scarce in PvP as an assassin....

[punman]

Deception is better than madness in my opinion

 

The problem i see with madness is that its dependent on death field, which is a pain to target during a fight, and casting crushing darkness, which makes you sit still for a sec (granted you don't have the buff that makes it instant). Madness is meant to literally bleed your opponent to death, in which case they die slowly, and have a shot at killing you in the meantime if you're still around. Also, many classes have "cleansing" affects that get rid of DoTS effects. I know assassins have one of the best self cleanse skills. Its fun to play in PvE though, because you don't have to worry with having a tank and healer around, something that is VERY scarce in PvP as an assassin....

 

You never cast Crushing Darkness without Raze. You're doing it wrong.

[Zanxscarce]

The problem isnt one to be ignored. Im sure not to many people picked the Assassin thinking they will be in the front lines tanking in battle.

 

 

I lol'ed, +1

[Karandor]

dear god make it stop

 

I know most people only use maul when they get a proc but the darkness/deception build lets you spam it for burst damage on an opening volley.

 

 

With relic + red buff I've 4-shot quite a few sages/sorcs.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Karandor

[Shalashasa]

Funny thing. I decided to put a point in everything that would be helpful in 1 PvP match battle off Darkness tree and this is what I got:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rIrskrskfs.1

 

I attempted to Only pick whats helpful in a single PVP battle using Deception and this is what I have come up with:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZGGrRzhbbtz.1

Only put points in Dark embrace to get Darkswell (DE is useless) and Avoidance only to get a measley 2 seconds off cd in jolt. the unbreakable will cd is laughable. really I wouldn't be able to go up past the level 2 with the bad skill choices in Deception.

 

I love the idea of a dps/burst Assassin in the shadows that Deception advertises. Only problem its something that works again only in PVE not PVP.

[Wargasmo]

Darkness sins fall into the same category as those people who thought riftblade/reaver was a viable spec in rift and who play as prot pvp in WoW.

 

It's a gimmick 1v1 spec that can basically only do 1 thing: force non healing classes with little or already used cd's into a 1v1 in some dank corner and slowly kill them. Sure, your numbers may look good in a warzone because increased survivability, great sin cooldowns, and the fact that any players who know what they're doing effectively ignore you till the rest of your team is dead means that ... hey, you rarely die.

 

The problem is that once you finish being impressed with yourself and your medal count, you realize that you offer very little to a cohesive team unless you're running a huttball or something (and, lets be honest, any sin can slap on dark charge, get past the first flame jet, and be home free for an unstoppable score so you don't really have a monopoly on that faction of play either). Low dps from darkness specs results in an inablility to kill any healer that knows what they're doing and a similar inability to clear out cap nodes and doors fast enough to guarantee a good cap/plant.

 

Deception is the way to go because it HAS the burst and the lockdown to take down healers, which really are the linchpin of any team that isn't just a faceroll victory. You have amazing survivability in the form of cooldowns, and can basically survive or escape any situation as long as you use your skills wisely.

 

Bottom line is that if you're having trouble being successful as deception, you probably just don't know how to fully utilize the tools of both the spec and class in general since you've been running around as a tank being healbotted for so long all you know how to do now is spike thrash thrash shock.

 

The key to successful deception play is not spamming your abilities, but timing your burst with a string of control to guarantee a kill. You're not an operative, so you don't open with burst. Use voltaic slash and your standard maul proc strikes until you force a heal, lock them out with jolt, pop cd's and unload your discharge and shock for burst (with cd's you should be able to shock for about 5k, possible chain shock for about 2k, and then discharge for about 5k... giving you a possible good 12k dmg in 2 gcd's that autocrit with recklessness), follow with a low slash to allow for another maul, electrocute into an asassinate. If they're somehow still alive you can vanish into a spike or even vanish into a sap to fill out their resolve bar and then finish them off with another maul or whatever (your jolt will be back up by this time also). The strength of our spec is that our lockdown skills generate very little resolve, allowing us to lock down for longer durrations than any other class in the game. People just have to realize that we're not pre-nerf operatives and we don't take someone from 100-0 in a burst (unless they're undergeared). We pressure into a position where we can lockdown and burst from, say.. 70-0 or 60-0.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Wargasmo

[Ryco]

I decided to look at my mirror class forum since I'd figure this forum would be more active. First title I saw, clicked the link and recognized the OP. Sup Shalashaka.

 

(Sorry in advanced for Shadow terminology) I have to agree. Deception/Infiltration is a terrible PvP spec. It is a great PvE DPS spec, given my experience the best melee dps in game. But it is not made for PvP. It is extremely squishy. Being proc reliant our damage requires some set up, we arent as capable of burst as other classes. And you don't have many tools to control the fight.

 

For operations I am frequently asked to respec out of my typical tank spec for dps. After the ops I make it through maybe two warzones before I have to respec to preserve my sanity.

 

For PvP the tree could use a buff.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ryco

[Ryco]

Darkness sins fall into the same category as those people who thought riftblade/reaver was a viable spec in rift and who play as prot pvp in WoW.

 

It's a gimmick 1v1 spec that can basically only do 1 thing: force non healing classes with little or already used cd's into a 1v1 in some dank corner and slowly kill them. Sure, your numbers may look good in a warzone because increased survivability, great sin cooldowns, and the fact that any players who know what they're doing effectively ignore you till the rest of your team is dead means that ... hey, you rarely die.

 

The problem is that once you finish being impressed with yourself and your medal count, you realize that you offer very little to a cohesive team unless you're running a huttball or something (and, lets be honest, any sin can slap on dark charge, get past the first flame jet, and be home free for an unstoppable score so you don't really have a monopoly on that faction of play either). Low dps from darkness specs results in an inablility to kill any healer that knows what they're doing and a similar inability to clear out cap nodes and doors fast enough to guarantee a good cap/plant.

 

Deception is the way to go because it HAS the burst and the lockdown to take down healers, which really are the linchpin of any team that isn't just a faceroll victory. You have amazing survivability in the form of cooldowns, and can basically survive or escape any situation as long as you use your skills wisely.

 

Bottom line is that if you're having trouble being successful as deception, you probably just don't know how to fully utilize the tools of both the spec and class in general since you've been running around as a tank being healbotted for so long all you know how to do now is spike thrash thrash shock.

 

The key to successful deception play is not spamming your abilities, but timing your burst with a string of control to guarantee a kill. You're not an operative, so you don't open with burst. Use voltaic slash and your standard maul proc strikes until you force a heal, lock them out with jolt, pop cd's and unload your discharge and shock for burst (with cd's you should be able to shock for about 5k, possible chain shock for about 2k, and then discharge for about 5k... giving you a possible good 12k dmg in 2 gcd's that autocrit with recklessness), follow with a low slash to allow for another maul, electrocute into an asassinate. If they're somehow still alive you can vanish into a spike or even vanish into a sap to fill out their resolve bar and then finish them off with another maul or whatever (your jolt will be back up by this time also). The strength of our spec is that our lockdown skills generate very little resolve, allowing us to lock down for longer durrations than any other class in the game. People just have to realize that we're not pre-nerf operatives and we don't take someone from 100-0 in a burst (unless they're undergeared). We pressure into a position where we can lockdown and burst from, say.. 70-0 or 60-0.

 

Darkness/Kinetic a gimmick spec? The tanks can change the momentum of a fight easily. A darkness assassin provides a great boost in survivability to the group. If you play smart and guard the focus, the enemy team has no choice but to address you first. And a darkness spec can lockdown a healer far better than a deception spec, I'd take out of stealth spinning kick over low slash (sorry again for Shadow terminology) any day. Not to mention the spec has great dps for a tank.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ryco

[Eddbert]

I decided to humor a guy by going deception again (for the hundreth time). Now I remember, again, why it sucks so badly. You have less damage than a marauder or Operative. Then you have less cc, shield, or survival ability of both.

 

If your a deception assassin in pvp then you have no clue what your doing.

 

Think outside of the box. Deception works great. You're missing something. You will know it when you see it.

[Shalashasa]

Darkness sins fall into the same category as those people who thought riftblade/reaver was a viable spec in rift and who play as prot pvp in WoW.

 

It's a gimmick 1v1 spec that can basically only do 1 thing: force non healing classes with little or already used cd's into a 1v1 in some dank corner and slowly kill them. Sure, your numbers may look good in a warzone because increased survivability, great sin cooldowns, and the fact that any players who know what they're doing effectively ignore you till the rest of your team is dead means that ... hey, you rarely die.

 

The problem is that once you finish being impressed with yourself and your medal count, you realize that you offer very little to a cohesive team unless you're running a huttball or something (and, lets be honest, any sin can slap on dark charge, get past the first flame jet, and be home free for an unstoppable score so you don't really have a monopoly on that faction of play either). Low dps from darkness specs results in an inablility to kill any healer that knows what they're doing and a similar inability to clear out cap nodes and doors fast enough to guarantee a good cap/plant.

 

Deception is the way to go because it HAS the burst and the lockdown to take down healers, which really are the linchpin of any team that isn't just a faceroll victory. You have amazing survivability in the form of cooldowns, and can basically survive or escape any situation as long as you use your skills wisely.

 

Bottom line is that if you're having trouble being successful as deception, you probably just don't know how to fully utilize the tools of both the spec and class in general since you've been running around as a tank being healbotted for so long all you know how to do now is spike thrash thrash shock.

 

The key to successful deception play is not spamming your abilities, but timing your burst with a string of control to guarantee a kill. You're not an operative, so you don't open with burst. Use voltaic slash and your standard maul proc strikes until you force a heal, lock them out with jolt, pop cd's and unload your discharge and shock for burst (with cd's you should be able to shock for about 5k, possible chain shock for about 2k, and then discharge for about 5k... giving you a possible good 12k dmg in 2 gcd's that autocrit with recklessness), follow with a low slash to allow for another maul, electrocute into an asassinate. If they're somehow still alive you can vanish into a spike or even vanish into a sap to fill out their resolve bar and then finish them off with another maul or whatever (your jolt will be back up by this time also). The strength of our spec is that our lockdown skills generate very little resolve, allowing us to lock down for longer durrations than any other class in the game. People just have to realize that we're not pre-nerf operatives and we don't take someone from 100-0 in a burst (unless they're undergeared). We pressure into a position where we can lockdown and burst from, say.. 70-0 or 60-0.

 

Deception is the most basic of all the specs. If you cant master deception you wont master darkness/madness.

 

vise versa if you Master Darkness or Madness deception is cake. What utilities does deception have over darkness. what "skill" is there to use. there is none.

 

For some reason people in deception think it actually takes skill. List all the "extra utilities" Deception has....

[Shalashasa]

Think outside of the box. Deception works great. You're missing something. You will know it when you see it.

 

I actually target deception assassins for a quick kill on purpose either out in ilum or warzone. There isnt a single good Deception Assassin I have seen. Maybe good players, but they suck when on Deception.

 

Show me one video that actually shows a Deception assassin doing something decent. You wont find it.

[Cowflab]

4 pages of PEBKAC. That's what I see here. Watch some of Upzie or Powerr's streams and, wait for it, TRY TO LEARN THE THINGS THAT MAKE THEM SUCCESSFUL AND STOP DOING THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE FAILING AT. I'm going to take a wild guess, judging by most or your preferences to darkness that you're trying to run into the thick of 4v4 + battles and thinking you'll come out unscathed. I perform just fine in deception whether in PuGs or premades because I accepted the fact that I don't know everything under the SWTOR sun and actually learned something from more experienced deception players instead of writing them of in some teenaged angst filled rage. Quit licking the windows and do some research if you want to play better.

 

Also, LOL at not enough cc. Tell that to the healers that rage whisper me after a game of huttball. Spike>jolt>low slash>electrocute>jolt>low slash and they're usually dead or near death and standing there doing abosuletely nothing.

 

TLDR; bad players =\= bad spec

[Cowflab]

I actually target deception assassins for a quick kill on purpose either out in ilum or warzone. There isnt a single good Deception Assassin I have seen. Maybe good players, but they suck when on Deception.

 

Show me one video that actually shows a Deception assassin doing something decent. You wont find it.

 

You're not looking hard enough. This thread is ridiculous.

[Erelus]

Just check out upzie's Deception videos and tell me that a deception Assassin isn't PvP viable:

http://www.twitch.tv/upzie84/videos

 

He leads in damage/medals/kills almost every WZ. (without Battlemaster gear) You just can't play a deception spec like a tank and run into the middle of 8 guys which is what I am guessing you are doing and are getting killed easily.

[Wargasmo]

well technically you can run into 8 ppl and come out fine... you just have to vanish after you kill the guy

[Cowflab]

Just check out upzie's Deception videos and tell me that a deception Assassin isn't PvP viable:

http://www.twitch.tv/upzie84/videos

 

He leads in damage/medals/kills almost every WZ. (without Battlemaster gear) You just can't play a deception spec like a tank and run into the middle of 8 guys which is what I am guessing you are doing and are getting killed easily.

 

I came to that same conclusion. This thread is filled with a bunch of wannabe Rambos wondering why the square peg isn't fitting into the round hole. Pro tip: a squishy stealth class is supposed to run the perimeter picking off healers and ranged classes. Not trading blows with the tanks in the trenches.

[Cowflab]

well technically you can run into 8 ppl and come out fine... you just have to vanish after you kill the guy

 

Judging by most of the responses in this thread, they don't even have deflection and force shroud on their hot bars.

[Astarica]

One time I ran into this Operative who is famed as unkillable on my server. We had two guys at 60%, versus the Operative at 30% and an ally at 100%. Although this is probably an unfavorable situation for them, surely a fearsome unkillable player can turn the tide around?

 

So the first thing she did was Vanish, so we focus on the other guy while spamming AEs to deal with the inevitable Hidden Strike, except it never happened. Kill the guy who was at 100% (2 on 1 is no problem), and then we saw the Operative appear about 100m away from the fight. It's clear she used Vanish just to run away as opposed to stay and fight, since she almost certainly would've died, and let her ally die.

 

Now if you want to play like that person, by all means go for Deception. In fact you don't even have a move like Hidden Strike to keep the enemy guessing (a Hidden Strike could've turned the fight around).

 

Voltiac Slash is one of those huge giveaway for 'kill me now' signs, similar to Salvation/Revivification. It indicates that you're pretty good DPS with no defenses (and if you PvP in Dark Charge as 31 deception there's something really wrong with your style). I see that Deception pretty much focus around the theory that the enemy is going to just stand still and let you get two Voltiac Slashes in every time, except that almost never happens in PvP even against Cover classes. And no don't think you can escape from the fact that you're an easy kill as soon as someone identify your spec by Voltiac Slash, unless you adapt the aforementioned example of running away and leaving your allies to die. It might make your leaderboard numbers look better but it won't be helping your team win more often.

 

To compound things, since Darkness assassins are some of the strongest characters in PvP, even if you don't have a giveaway move like Voltiac Slash, a lot of people might just focus on you anyway since Darkness assassins must be killed first (nobody is getting away with Wither on), so you might just end up meeting a focus fire that's designed to take out a Darkness assassin, which would obviously obliterate anyone not in Dark Charge by definition.

 

I was reading the budget for military and it says there's a saying that the enemy gets a vote on what you spend your defenses on. It's the same way for survival in PvP. The enemy gets a vote and often they'll vote for Assassins to be dead. You don't get to change that vote.

[Erelus]

One time I ran into this Operative who is famed as unkillable on my server. We had two guys at 60%, versus the Operative at 30% and an ally at 100%. Although this is probably an unfavorable situation for them, surely a fearsome unkillable player can turn the tide around?

 

So the first thing she did was Vanish, so we focus on the other guy while spamming AEs to deal with the inevitable Hidden Strike, except it never happened. Kill the guy who was at 100% (2 on 1 is no problem), and then we saw the Operative appear about 100m away from the fight. It's clear she used Vanish just to run away as opposed to stay and fight, since she almost certainly would've died, and let her ally die.

 

Now if you want to play like that person, by all means go for Deception. In fact you don't even have a move like Hidden Strike to keep the enemy guessing (a Hidden Strike could've turned the fight around).

 

Voltiac Slash is one of those huge giveaway for 'kill me now' signs, similar to Salvation/Revivification. It indicates that you're pretty good DPS with no defenses (and if you PvP in Dark Charge as 31 deception there's something really wrong with your style). I see that Deception pretty much focus around the theory that the enemy is going to just stand still and let you get two Voltiac Slashes in every time, except that almost never happens in PvP even against Cover classes. And no don't think you can escape from the fact that you're an easy kill as soon as someone identify your spec by Voltiac Slash, unless you adapt the aforementioned example of running away and leaving your allies to die. It might make your leaderboard numbers look better but it won't be helping your team win more often.

 

To compound things, since Darkness assassins are some of the strongest characters in PvP, even if you don't have a giveaway move like Voltiac Slash, a lot of people might just focus on you anyway since Darkness assassins must be killed first (nobody is getting away with Wither on), so you might just end up meeting a focus fire that's designed to take out a Darkness assassin, which would obviously obliterate anyone not in Dark Charge by definition.

 

I was reading the budget for military and it says there's a saying that the enemy gets a vote on what you spend your defenses on. It's the same way for survival in PvP. The enemy gets a vote and often they'll vote for Assassins to be dead. You don't get to change that vote.

 

My response to any further replies on this thread is to check out upzie's videos and tell me he doesn't help his team win.

 

In response to Deception Assassins being squishy, while its true that our innate Defense is bad, all of our defense comes from our abilities. See a group of enemy players together, hit Mass Mind Control and mitigate their damage by 30%. I just saved my teammates from 5k worth of damage and earned myself a medal with one click. Fighting a Sorcerer, use Force Shroud and you are INVINCIBLE from all of their attacks for 5 seconds. With anyone else I have FOUR interrupts (Jolt, Electrocute, Low Slash, Force Cloak+Spike) so they can never cast anything or heal. This defensive list doesn't even include Deflection (increasing Defense by 50%), Force Run or the Rakata Adrenal that increases your Armor by 1500.

 

For the last time, watch upzie's videos, learn to play the spec and then comment on it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Erelus

[Bevv]

4 pages of PEBKAC. That's what I see here. Watch some of Upzie or Powerr's streams and, wait for it, TRY TO LEARN THE THINGS THAT MAKE THEM SUCCESSFUL AND STOP DOING THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE FAILING AT. I'm going to take a wild guess, judging by most or your preferences to darkness that you're trying to run into the thick of 4v4 + battles and thinking you'll come out unscathed. I perform just fine in deception whether in PuGs or premades because I accepted the fact that I don't know everything under the SWTOR sun and actually learned something from more experienced deception players instead of writing them of in some teenaged angst filled rage. Quit licking the windows and do some research if you want to play better.

 

Also, LOL at not enough cc. Tell that to the healers that rage whisper me after a game of huttball. Spike>jolt>low slash>electrocute>jolt>low slash and they're usually dead or near death and standing there doing abosuletely nothing.

 

TLDR; bad players =\= bad spec

 

not really understanding OP's point?

i think YOU should go watch their videos again and TRY to read what powerr's posted regarding both specs instead of just drooling all over keyboard looking at his big crits.

 

spike jolt ls electrocute jolt etc etc etc.

nothing other trees can't do either.

 

if you don't understand why deception tree is broken, then YOU should think again what you are doing in this game. obviously you don't read posts so i won't even bother explaining why it's broken.

or just go drool some more on their videos.

[Angina]

Just check out upzie's Deception videos and tell me that a deception Assassin isn't PvP viable:

http://www.twitch.tv/upzie84/videos

 

He leads in damage/medals/kills almost every WZ. (without Battlemaster gear) You just can't play a deception spec like a tank and run into the middle of 8 guys which is what I am guessing you are doing and are getting killed easily.

 

Though I'll point out at later ranks he's switched to Madness.

[Astarica]

My response to any further replies on this thread is to check out upzie's videos and tell me he doesn't help his team win.

 

In response to Deception Assassins being squishy, while its true that our innate Defense is bad, all of our defense comes from our abilities. See a group of enemy players together, hit Mass Mind Control and mitigate their damage by 30%. I just saved my teammates from 5k worth of damage and earned myself a medal with one click. Fighting a Sorcerer, use Force Shroud and you are INVINCIBLE from all of their attacks for 5 seconds. With anyone else I have FOUR interrupts (Jolt, Electrocute, Low Slash, Force Cloak+Spike) so they can never cast anything or heal. This defensive list doesn't even include Deflection (increasing Defense by 50%), Force Run or the Rakata Adrenal that increases your Armor by 1500.

 

For the last time, watch upzie's videos, learn to play the spec and then comment on it.

 

If you ever in a team that won a game you can upload a video of that game showing how you helped the team win because your team won.

 

All the skills you listed are usable in Darkness. If we're talking strictly 31 Darkness versus 31 Deception, Force Shroud only lasts 3 seconds for a 31 Deception build because you can't get the talent in Darkness to extend it.

 

Spike is not usable out of staleth for Deception, so this cancels out Low Slash. Low Slash is probably generally better than Spike, but for the purpose of interrupting, they're pretty much equal.