What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[jamenta]

Competition is about WINNING. Not about being fair. People do what it takes to win. They grind for hours and hours on end to get the gear they need to WIN. What you are saying is the equivalent to rigging the olympics to give normal people a chance to beat trained and gifted athletes. Those guys "no lifed" it to get where they are. They had to put WORK in to be competitive. You might say "well this is just a game durr" but so is basketball and football, and those games you watch are played by people who bust their asses to be where they are.

 

Oh I see. So that's why in an NFL football game - one teams can field 20 receivers and another 3 receivers. Or one team gets rocket packs and another gets rubber bands.

 

Who are you kidding?

[Kuriby]

Thank you OP.

 

Though I don't agree with your entire post... the truth about Western MMORPG PVP is that it is completely based on who grinds for gear more. Its silly that every western mmorpg still has this gear oriented pvp. What is the point of pvping if its based on gear and not skill?

 

Yes, you can out skill someone with better gear, but that gap gets wider and wider as the person's gear gets better.

 

Take for example Vindictus and Dragon Nest. Both games are action oriented, so it does require skill. BUT the different in Eastern MMORPGs is that you can be VERY successful in PVP with little to no gear if you have skill.

 

FPS games. Another good example of PVP. Even knew games like BF3, CoD series with level/skill system doesn't provide a huge threat for skilled players in pvp. You can still hold your own at level 1 vs max level players.

 

Hey SWTOR, be different, change your formula!

[Lokai]

Fact # 1 It does NOT take that long to accumulate enough points to get some decent pvp gear

 

Except that grinding valor does take quite a long time unless your LIVING in warzones and winning every single one your talking month or two of grinding valor just to be able to USE battlemaster! as for champ set... yea bag RNG nuff said! i know people have played since day 1 of early access STILL havent gotten a full champ set because of HORRIBLE RNG. Is it unattainable? no but it sure doesnt take skill to get geared just stupid amounts of time.

 

Fact # 2 If you are in a Warzone, all pvp is a team effort. Thus the skill of your team is what determines your success, not gear

 

Except premades only want those in champ/bm gear, and if you think can orginize a pug your insane in your head. Also your not really right...example if i play objective in huttball helping score, getting assists and forego spamming pew pew, then i actually am PENALIZED for it! because i get LESS commendations, LESS valor, and over all less rewards! ie over all team effort is NOT rewarded! only what YOU do is.

 

Fact# 3 If you are bad at pvp then you can have all the gear in the world but you're still bad at pvp and therefore will get killed.

 

UNLESS your in full champ set facing down someone that isn't and can instantly kill them while keyboard turning and lawling as they cant hurt you at all! sorry but gear>skill in TOR and anyone seriously pvps knows this. I bet in champ gear facing down my counter class is in only quest gear i'll kill him while keyboard turning and mouse clicking everything... why? because a 15% damage reduction/increase and 15-17k hp is a massive advantage and no manner of skill can overcome flat stats.

 

 

i've said it before and i'll say it again x3

 

Gear>Skill in mmos

[Torleen]

I think its interesting how people who are bad at pvp complain about others in heavy pvp gear having " no life". Lets take Torleen for example. Clearly this person is bad at pvp or would not be complaining about " losers" with nothing better to do than farm gear beating you all the time.

 

Oh how little you know me. I am a Jedi Guardian who fairly regularly can come in 1st in damage. And kills. And almost always gets first in Defense.

 

So, that said. Your ASSumptions about me in an attempt to personally attack me to avoid the truth of the argument actually makes you lose this argument. Not win it. It's logically fallacious.

 

Your logic that I must be bad at PVP which is why I want a system where skill is more important then grinding falls right on it's face.

 

What I want is people who are actually bad at PVP to lose. And for "grinding for PVP" to become about actually learning to play rather then winning due to a stat on one's gear.

 

People who are bad at PVP need the PVP crutch. As much as people like you try to turn this around it makes no logical sense at all to suggest that we want the gear disparity issue dealt with because somehow we are bad players.

 

If you were a bad player then you need the "affirmative action" of a gear bonus that gives you an unfair advantage.

 

The best analogy I have seen so far is comparing this to streetfighter. You seem to think that because you grind more you should be "entitled" to turn up your health bar with a handicap. And that if I don't like that, it means I am not a good player. And you want to be able to brag about your "leet" skills when you started the match with a huge bonus.

 

Anyone who went to a Streetfighter tourney and started calling people names for not being willing to let them handicap all their opponents would be laughed at.

 

And that is what I am doing now. Laughing at people who demand that. And even more so, laughing at those who actually delude themselves into thinking that anyone who does not feel they should have this advantage is actually the "bad" player.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Torleen

[Aowar]

Thank you OP.

 

Though I don't agree with your entire post... the truth about Western MMORPG PVP is that it is completely based on who grinds for gear more. Its silly that every western mmorpg still has this gear oriented pvp. What is the point of pvping if its based on gear and not skill?

 

Yes, you can out skill someone with better gear, but that gap gets wider and wider as the person's gear gets better.

 

Take for example Vindictus and Dragon Nest. Both games are action oriented, so it does require skill. BUT the different in Eastern MMORPGs is that you can be VERY successful in PVP with little to no gear if you have skill.

 

FPS games. Another good example of PVP. Even knew games like BF3, CoD series with level/skill system doesn't provide a huge threat for skilled players in pvp. You can still hold your own at level 1 vs max level players.

 

Hey SWTOR, be different, change your formula!

 

 

 

Yes and you'll be all for removing PvE gear as well right? After all why should a new 50 have to get geared to go raid a nightmare mode. Clearly not fair.

 

 

No progrsesion in mmo's for '12..the lolcats campaign motto!

[Lokai]

Sorry bud, never been two shot. Even when people claimed Ops could do it.

 

If you are, you're probably wearing level 40 blues and not using your defensive cooldowns. Something tells me you haven't played in the 50 bracket, because even with no PVP gear there was no barrier to winning.

 

 

If it isn't fun I'd stop doing it, you sound like you're having too hard a time anyway.

 

Operative Crits you for 7k damage opener

Operative crits you for 6k backstab

 

13k damage done

 

hp in 50 quest gear

 

12k

 

oh but ops were nerfed right?

 

Guardian/jugg SMASHES YOU FOR 10K follows with 3k strike

 

13k damage you die

 

its quite easy to 2shot someone in pvp via biochem and relics even after the nerf... can rotate them just means getting damage longer. Are plenty of vids of highe end players getting two shot ALSO i'm in 3 parts of champ gear, 3 parts centurian gear, 7.5% expertise and i still get two shot every so often by BM/full champ players though much less often then use to be it does happen.

[astrolite]

Gear in the 50 bracket is akin to talent points in the 10-49 bracket. You have to level for both, in a way.

[Irudious]

you really have no idea of the disparity between a champ geared player and someone has no expertise do you? let me give you a good example.

 

Level 20 player fights level 49 player now the 20 is bolstered up so he's at level 50 stats so is the 49. Now 49 has like 2% expertise form his level 40 set hardly going to make a difference. Two go toe to toe! the 20 gets the 49 to 25-35% hp before he dies.

 

now lets check level 50 situation!

 

level 50 fresh player with all purple 49 set, goes into pvp vs a champ geared player. The 50 proceeds to TWO SHOT the level 50 player instantly killing him inside of first 5-6 seconds of combat.

 

The difference between a fresh 50 and someone has basic champ/centurion set is IMMENSE! your taking 5-6k crits on average, your hp is only about 12k in comparison to someone has champ set and is sitting at 15k hp. On top of this cant even hurt them because of the 15% damage reduction, and 15% healing increase. What it amounts to is this...anyone NOT in champ/centurion gear is on /farm and that is what people are griping about.

 

Also i kinda have to laugh at whole " BUT THEY ARE MORE SKILLED IF THEY HAVE CHAMP/BM!" what? what? i don't even... let us examine this! =D

 

Champ bags are gained through dailys, or via buying bags on pvp vender, BM bags are aquired through VALOR grinds! thus in order to get gear only requires one thing.... /afk in warzones. Yes you heard me i can enter a warzone and do NOTHING and still gain enough valor and badges to aquire said gear.

 

SKILL IS NOT A FACTOR!

 

you do not need to be good at pvp to aquire pvp gear, only time or a program to constantly que you for warzones and run out the front gate. Not that hard to get said programs and yes might get you banned but, most are macro programs and its hard to bann those since only clicking screen.

 

So whole post hardly makes any sense we aren't asking for gear to be removed or progression to go away. We ARE asking that either a starter set to give us a decent amount of expertise so we are not 2 shot by champ/BM(we will still lose just not in 2.5 seconds) and actually have some semblance of a chance. Right now is no reason to que for warzones because all of the premades are just FARMING non-geared players.

 

THAT ISNT FUN

THAT ISNT ENJOYABLE

 

Frankly do you expect us to just deal with it? much rather play a lowbie in 1-49 then be on /farm from those are in high end gear. so as i said...

 

either remove the premade/champ/bm geared players from warzones or give us a decent crafted starter set or purchased set so we can actually stand up to them. But REAL issue is expertise and what its doing..untill that is fixed none of this matters.

 

Um, have you even played a warzone on this game??? If you think you can have equal Valor and commendation gains by afking in a warzone, then you are obviously a NOOB. Do nothing and get rewarded nothing. I see those people who do nothing, they get 1-2 medals and must hate playing pvp because they think its about how long and how many times they get in a warzone. I get 100+ commendations a game. Having skills in pvp is a guaranteed way of getting gear faster in SWTOR and that is just a fact.

[Incendergel]

ya most of the people in those brackets are still trying to level to 50 though too. And the others that reroll to play in a lowbie bracket aren't good pvpers and are too lazy to grind gear.

 

This is a mmo. You have to reward players for investing their time and energy building a character up. Why should you just be able to ding 50 and come in a WZ and dome me when I've put all this effort into the game that you haven't? Why don't you go play an FPS if that's the kind of equal playing field you want. I want my time and energy to mean something. If you weren't such a brat then you could suck it up and grind the gear out like everyone else in EVERY OTHER MMO

 

Because dinging 50, then flying to Ilum, and then typing in /chat "any trading ops groups up or forming?" is so pro, right?

 

People are playing in the 10 - 49 brackets because it is the best form of PvP now regardless of what server you are on. Ilum is broke and faction population imbalance isn't helping. WTH are you smoking to call someone a brat? Only way for people to do any form of "legit" gear grind is by playing in said WZ's and when you die quicker than a June bug in heat it takes the fun out of it.

 

People will stop playing if all they do is lose with no other options. You can't go to another zone and get valor outside of Ilum. Ilum is broke or even if you try you are out numbered 99% of the time. So unless you rolled Imp or unless you trade (cheater) you are not going to be obtaining ranks at "any" reasonable rate.

[Torleen]

Operative Crits you for 7k damage opener

Operative crits you for 6k backstab

 

13k damage done

 

hp in 50 quest gear

 

12k

 

oh but ops were nerfed right?

 

Guardian/jugg SMASHES YOU FOR 10K follows with 3k strike

 

13k damage you die

 

its quite easy to 2shot someone in pvp via biochem and relics even after the nerf... can rotate them just means getting damage longer. Are plenty of vids of highe end players getting two shot ALSO i'm in 3 parts of champ gear, 3 parts centurian gear, 7.5% expertise and i still get two shot every so often by BM/full champ players though much less often then use to be it does happen.

 

There are a lot of differences between the Op problem and the Guardian Sweep problem.

 

The ops can walk up on you in stealth and end your life before you can even get up.

 

In order for a Guardian to do this, they have to go through a chain of abilities that are interruptable. They can be killed while they are doing this, and the final move that is actually doing all that damage can be countered with knockback. You don't even need a CC break. Soon as you see them pop in the air for that AOE you can blow them back and all of the time they put into warming up for that big hit is wasted. Happens all the time.

[LaManoNera]

/translation I want gear handed to me in pvp.

 

/translation We don't want gear for PvP and want it to be skill based and fun

 

Fixed for you.

[Torleen]

Because dinging 50, then flying to Ilum, and then typing in /chat "any trading ops groups up or forming?" is so pro, right?

 

People are playing in the 10 - 49 brackets because it is the best form of PvP now regardless of what server you are on. Ilum is broke and faction population imbalance isn't helping. WTH are you smoking to call someone a brat? Only way for people to do any form of "legit" gear grind is by playing in said WZ's and when you die quicker than a June bug in heat it takes the fun out of it.

 

People will stop playing if all they do is lose with no other options. You can't go to another zone and get valor outside of Ilum. Ilum is broke or even if you try you are out numbered 99% of the time. So unless you rolled Imp or unless you trade (cheater) you are not going to be obtaining ranks at "any" reasonable rate.

 

Excellent post.

[Felene]

yea cause grinding 350 marks per 1 enhancement is worth the effort for something won't benefit you in the long run. Sorry but 2-3% expertise is not going to stop you from being 2-3 shot by people have 400+ expertise.... its only 20-30 expertise an enhancement going to get MAYBE 100 150 out of all that work...

 

your still going to be farmed by champ geared players.

 

First of all its 580wz comm which is still cheaper than the champion bag "which may not give you a token."

 

And no its just getting prepare for lv46+, my main medic op is only lv42 but she already has 85 expertise on her with enough weapon in her cargo to change it to 150 once she hit lv46.

 

Got one champion bag plus 1000/1000 wz/merc comm sitting in her cargo, too.

 

Why don't we just ask BioWare to let us open our bags pre-lv50 so we can get a full set champion before we even hit lv50 or give us blue lv50 pvp gear back.

 

What does that teach us about pvp gear?

 

If you invest time on it, pvp gear is surprisingly easy to get unless your luck sucks.

 

So quit the "im new 50 in 50 bracket getting owned, waaahhh get rid of expertise!"

 

p.s. I am a pure pvper, beta ruin my pve enjoyment.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Felene

[Hypernetic]

It's funny how you noobs think having no gear would make you good all of the sudden.

[Lokai]

Um, have you even played a warzone on this game??? If you think you can have equal Valor and commendation gains by afking in a warzone, then you are obviously a NOOB. Do nothing and get rewarded nothing. I see those people who do nothing, they get 1-2 medals and must hate playing pvp because they think its about how long and how many times they get in a warzone. I get 100+ commendations a game. Having skills in pvp is a guaranteed way of getting gear faster in SWTOR and that is just a fact.

 

the point was you STILL get both... here just a rough example...

 

say you get 20 badges for doing nothing and 500 valor...

 

a win gives me about 75-100 badges and 2000 valor, if i play for 2-3 hours getting about 6k valor.

 

Alternatively bob the afker, proceeds to afk in a warzon from 12 midnight till 12 noon, thats 12 hours of afk farming he gains 2200 bades and 6000 valor while he was asleep.

 

See the point there? while average player can only play for a few hours at a time do to time constraints and real life issues. An afker can literally gain MORE because he's not needed to be present to gain the rewards he can go to work, sleep, eat, and go about his daily life while GAINING all benefits of a player that does it the legit way. you'd say but its slower...but then you factor in time you play vs time his character is afk farming and you quickly see he's gaining more per day then you are...

 

anyone understand what afk farming is and how it works quickly understands that afk farmers=more rewards faster.

[KyoMamoru]

Level 50 is not the end of your character progression; just the end of your story line and ability to solo to get gear. With strictly PVE daily enhancement/mod/armor, you can get +30-40% surge of someone in Champion Gear, +5-8% more crit, and comparable levels of health. Do keep in mind, players that are at 50+ Valor will have received so many duplicates in PVP gear, that they will most likely have stripped out the bad modifiers in their gear, which places them on yet another level beyond just having Expertise. Edited February 1, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[Darth_Philar]

It's funny how you noobs think having no gear would make you good all of the sudden.

 

What is "funny" is how some people think that they are better players because they outgear the competition.

[Torleen]

It's funny how you noobs think having no gear would make you good all of the sudden.

 

It's funny how you noobs think that winning solely because you have gear made you "good" all of a sudden.

[Lokai]

There are a lot of differences between the Op problem and the Guardian Sweep problem.

 

The ops can walk up on you in stealth and end your life before you can even get up.

 

In order for a Guardian to do this, they have to go through a chain of abilities that are interruptable. They can be killed while they are doing this, and the final move that is actually doing all that damage can be countered with knockback. You don't even need a CC break. Soon as you see them pop in the air for that AOE you can blow them back and all of the time they put into warming up for that big hit is wasted. Happens all the time.

 

my point was its fairly easy to get 2 shot in pvp not that wasn't avoidable, the claim was that it couldn't happen, and i can tell you it can and does quite often. This is because expertise scales damage UPWARD so that those have no expertise are hit harder because of it.

 

Expertise as it is actually supports idea that newbie players should be farmed because basically making it easier to do so. Had full champ players stop attacking other pvp geared players in pvp(when i was a new 50) and turn to me just to auto kill me and let other person go. Why? because was alot easier to kill me then chase down a hard target =P

 

again point i posted was just to explain that its easy to be 2 shot in pvp 3 shots are more common but dieing in 3-5 hits is still to fast for my tastes.

[Felene]

What is "funny" is how some people think that they are better players because they outgear the competition.

 

So invest time to become better with gear is wrong?

[EternalFinality]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

Make it fun? Nah, that would never work.

[Torleen]

So invest time to become better with gear is wrong?

 

Forcing the rest of us to spend time grinding gear rather then learning our class and rotation is wrong.

 

Allowing people who's only contribution to the group is their gear to spank people who are better then they are is wrong.

[dannythefool]

So invest time to become better with gear is wrong?

 

I have gear, which beats your gear

 

That's about it. You don't become better. The game just lets you win more often because it knows you've been a good paying customer for longer. Not because you actually outsmarted or outplayed your opponent.

[Boardwalker]

I want to get owned when I first step into level 50 pvp.

 

Then I want to see my performance incrementally improve the more I pvp.

 

Finally I want to be one of the top performers when I get the best pvp gear.

 

 

Part of the joy of mmo pvp is in the progression of your ability to kill, and survive.

Just like pve is a progression in killing tougher and tougher mobs.

 

If I didn't want that progression, if I didn't want to watch my toon improve over time, then I'd play an FPS.

[Lokai]

MMO's will always be time sinks i hate valor grind as much as next person however, certainly not going to change we all need to face facts. Will always be a valor grind, and will always be a gear grind! we must accept that...

 

What i stand by is that current gear rewards system is pretty terrible way its done and handled is just stupid...

 

All i am asking is that a baseline pvp set be added to give us a decent start on pvp rather then spending weeks at a time trying to get champ set and having 0 expertise for longest time and being so very farmable.

 

Edit: off to work =3 enjoy the debate i've had my say so!

Edited February 1, 2012 by Lokai