What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[Torleen]

What is wrong with pvp to get pvp gear?

 

Crafting is pve, what will the pve crowd going to say if pvp gives token that can buy top tier pve gear or purple max rank crafting mats?

 

How often do you PVP?

 

Have you tried doing so when the opposing team wins because they are doing more damage then you solely because of some code in their gear?

 

When fighting people who outgear you, you lose a lot. Which makes the acquisition of your own gear take FAR longer. Which is slow, and frustrating. And not fun.

 

I wish I could craft all my PVP gear. The Gear Bag system and the "Grind by volunteering to be the BIT%^ of everyone with less of a life then you" system is stupid too.

[DarthOvertone]

WZ 1-49 PvP is some of the worst garbage combat I've ever seen. It's just a 3-5 button faceroll, depending on the level of the toons involved. So bad, it's just amusing that there are peeps that love it and consider it quality PvP. lawl

[Torleen]

WZ 1-49 PvP is some of the worst garbage combat I've ever seen. It's just a 3-5 button faceroll, depending on the level of the toons involved. So bad, it's just amusing that there are peeps that love it and consider it quality PvP. lawl

 

So is the combat in the 50's bracket where you can rack up kills by squishing people with little to no effort who don't have as much gear as you "Quality" combat?

[Torleen]

Meh, pvp at 50 is a complete disaster. I would rather re-roll and have tons of fun in the 10-49 Bracket, you know where skill actually matter.

 

Wait.... are you one of those people that the people trolling this thread are claiming I made up? Well played sir!

[Lokai]

Craft?

 

You can just buy the weapon with Expertise around your level from the pvp vender, take out the mod with expertise, put it on your gear.

 

your... kidding right? go to cenarian pvp vender for me...and tell me mods can pull out of that set? what isn't any? oh well sure is a blue set can do that to for lvl50's right? OH right there isn't...

 

i hope to god you were being sarcastic x3

[Felene]

your... kidding right? go to cenarian pvp vender for me...and tell me mods can pull out of that set? what isn't any? oh well sure is a blue set can do that to for lvl50's right? OH right there isn't...

 

i hope to god you were being sarcastic x3

 

Dude, WEAPONS.

 

No I am not talking about Centurion or Champion or any blue/purple pvp gear.

 

I am talking about the guy who sell orange pvp weapons from lv12~46 who stand next to the pvp quest terminal.

 

And it is "you are" or "you're" not "YOUR."

Edited February 1, 2012 by Felene

[Torleen]

Dude, WEAPONS.

 

No I am not talking about Centurion or Champion or any purple pvp gear.

 

I am talking about the guy who sell orange pvp weapons from lv12~46 who stand next to the pvp quest terminal.

 

And this will do WHAT exactly for the level 50? I am wearing a suit of armor right now that I pulled the Expertise mods out of weapons for. It is useful for a while but it will not help you when you hit 50. The max amount of expertise you can get is miniscule.

[Whyld]

This is a well made point.

 

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

[dannythefool]

And this will do WHAT exactly for the level 50? I am wearing a suit of armor right now that I pulled the Expertise mods out of weapons for. It is useful for a while but it will not help you when you hit 50. The max amount of expertise you can get is miniscule.

 

You can get roughly ~100-150 expertise. I'm not sure how much that helps tbh but people are screaming that starting at "zero expertise" is the entire problem. I don't think it is, but if you do, then you can start at at least 100.

[Felene]

This is a well made point.

 

The reason for player leaving lv50 brackets, lets see how about "not enough lv50s cause queue time for over 2 hour, re-roll a lv10 only takes 1 hour and a queue time of 5min?"

 

I can make up a "well made point", too.

[Lokai]

I don't understand #3...it's acceptable that a level 49 plasters a level 20...and yet someone who is already a Battlemaster and put in way MORE time than a fresh 50 has, far MORE time than the ratio of L49:L20, somehow doesn't deserve to plaster them? That just doesn't add up.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't even think Battlemasters get an instant win button. I didn't get free Ilum gear. I play Republic. I work full time, have kids. I have just about everything going against me - I still managed to get a full suit of Champ armor minus the chest without too much work. The expertise gap slowly whittled away and now I really don't care. I paid my dues, and the playing field is now even enough that the game can be considered team vs. team again, just like in the lower level bracket.

 

Sure, people with better gear killed me. What you seem to forget is that a lot of those people got better gear because they were better players. It's not just about time, whether you want to think that or not.

 

If people with better gear suck, I kill them. There's no massive invisible barrier to my success. If they earned their gear, I find out when they bash my skull in.

 

If I'm in a PUG, fighting a coordinated team, I shouldn't even open my mouth, because, well, I should be losing. Nobody brings up the obvious disparity between teams with voice servers and teams without them. There's a massive advantage to players using Vent, etc. There's also a mentality when people play with PUGs that they can go in and 1v1 someone. If you want to 1v1 someone go wander the worldservers...Warzones are about team play, and the coordinated team will focus down your healers and then murder you if you're not cooperating.

 

Best advice for newly geared 50's if you're really into PVP is to roll with good teammates, and try to learn your class better. Having the humility to admit that you need to learn more will go a long way. Even those of us that were in Beta learned more after the game launched. I'm still learning every day I play.

 

TL:DR version - no, you're playing the wrong type of game if you think you deserve free items to put you on par with someone who invested way more time, or if you think that people shouldn't be rewarded for investing hard work. The guy in Battlemaster gear that killed you wasn't a bot, even though some of them did get bags in Easy Mode - that's not their fault, it's BioWare's.

 

you really have no idea of the disparity between a champ geared player and someone has no expertise do you? let me give you a good example.

 

Level 20 player fights level 49 player now the 20 is bolstered up so he's at level 50 stats so is the 49. Now 49 has like 2% expertise form his level 40 set hardly going to make a difference. Two go toe to toe! the 20 gets the 49 to 25-35% hp before he dies.

 

now lets check level 50 situation!

 

level 50 fresh player with all purple 49 set, goes into pvp vs a champ geared player. The 50 proceeds to TWO SHOT the level 50 player instantly killing him inside of first 5-6 seconds of combat.

 

The difference between a fresh 50 and someone has basic champ/centurion set is IMMENSE! your taking 5-6k crits on average, your hp is only about 12k in comparison to someone has champ set and is sitting at 15k hp. On top of this cant even hurt them because of the 15% damage reduction, and 15% healing increase. What it amounts to is this...anyone NOT in champ/centurion gear is on /farm and that is what people are griping about.

 

Also i kinda have to laugh at whole " BUT THEY ARE MORE SKILLED IF THEY HAVE CHAMP/BM!" what? what? i don't even... let us examine this! =D

 

Champ bags are gained through dailys, or via buying bags on pvp vender, BM bags are aquired through VALOR grinds! thus in order to get gear only requires one thing.... /afk in warzones. Yes you heard me i can enter a warzone and do NOTHING and still gain enough valor and badges to aquire said gear.

 

SKILL IS NOT A FACTOR!

 

you do not need to be good at pvp to aquire pvp gear, only time or a program to constantly que you for warzones and run out the front gate. Not that hard to get said programs and yes might get you banned but, most are macro programs and its hard to bann those since only clicking screen.

 

So whole post hardly makes any sense we aren't asking for gear to be removed or progression to go away. We ARE asking that either a starter set to give us a decent amount of expertise so we are not 2 shot by champ/BM(we will still lose just not in 2.5 seconds) and actually have some semblance of a chance. Right now is no reason to que for warzones because all of the premades are just FARMING non-geared players.

 

THAT ISNT FUN

THAT ISNT ENJOYABLE

 

Frankly do you expect us to just deal with it? much rather play a lowbie in 1-49 then be on /farm from those are in high end gear. so as i said...

 

either remove the premade/champ/bm geared players from warzones or give us a decent crafted starter set or purchased set so we can actually stand up to them. But REAL issue is expertise and what its doing..untill that is fixed none of this matters.

[Patrickgf]

You know ALOT of people would just be happy with a Scoreboard so they can see how they compare to others, Which is why most people PvP in the first place, a Ranking system would be much more accepted and loved than a gear system.

 

NO NO NO NO NO NO, this is not why most people pvp... they pvp for pvp gear because they would rather smash other players than run ops over and over. If you would like a gear free pvp bracket be my guest but no one will be playing.

[BDutch]

You can get roughly ~100-150 expertise. I'm not sure how much that helps tbh but people are screaming that starting at "zero expertise" is the entire problem. I don't think it is, but if you do, then you can start at at least 100.

 

4.33%

 

The bigger difference will be the fact that most people are in blues around item rating 100 while the geared players will be in epics around item rating 120-140, before the expertise even comes into play.

 

But yeah pulling out the weapon mods and filling in the rest with the best mods you can find is probably the best way cushion the impending roflstomp.

[Torleen]

The reason for player leaving lv50 brackets, lets see how about "not enough lv50s cause queue time for over 2 hour, re-roll a lv10 only takes 1 hour and a queue time of 5min?"

 

I can make up a "well made point", too.

 

People have already posted in this thread that they agree with me and are doing the exact same thing. And are motivated by the better PVP pre-50.

 

Fail.

[Hypernetic]

People are rerolling because they get owned against 50s and need a talent point / ability advantage to do well (i.e. they enjoy being the level 40 in a warzone full of level 12s). Anyone who thinks 10-49 is competitive is an idiot.

[Fidasaind]

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

 

I agree with you about gearing up. Getting gear in gear based progression is a constant thing. Just as we start getting most of our cent/champ suit, we need to start dealing with RNG all over again with battlemaster bags. And you can only earn as many as 9 BM bags per week. No buying them form WZ/merc commendations to speed things up.

 

The reason that games with gear based progression have a PvP stat is so that people who enjoy PvP can be on par (or ahead of) raiders that want to PvP. Without a PvP stat then they have one of two problems: PvPers are angry that raid gear is better OR raiders are angry that PvP gear is as good or better for raiding. Without limiting raid gear to PvE only bonuses or different types of progression this will be a problem with all MMOs.

 

I actually preferred DAoC's end game progression. After they made Trials of Atlantis bearable (took far too long but they did do it eventually), getting your end game suit was fairly easy. The only RNG was on scroll drops which could be sold to other players and on crafting items which could also be sold to other players.

 

Once you were 50 and had your suit, you earned abilities (both passive and active) through RvR. Many of these abilities were very strong and could tip the scales of fights. Thankfully, many classes had MOST of what they needed by RR5-7. And you could be RR5 by the time you hit 50 if you played in the BGs. Sure a group of RR10s would have an advantage over you. But my guild loved to reroll and we still could compete with higher ranked groups. It is a lot easier for an RR6 group to beat an RR8 group in DAoC than it is for a group in full cent to beat a group in full BM. And the time from RR6 to RR8 was far shorter.

 

I was also fine with nothing but fluff as rewards (achievements, titles, looks, etc) in other games. But that seems impossible in the current MMO culture. Maybe Dominus' system may work out. You PvP to control parts of the zone which lets you gather end game materials for crafting. If you can eventually get that gear without having to deal with tons of better geared people and are able to compete with them, then it may not be as bad as the PvP gear in games ever since the WoW arenas came out.

[Lokai]

Dude, WEAPONS.

 

No I am not talking about Centurion or Champion or any blue/purple pvp gear.

 

I am talking about the guy who sell orange pvp weapons from lv12~46 who stand next to the pvp quest terminal.

 

And it is "you are" or "you're" not "YOUR."

 

yea cause grinding 350 marks per 1 enhancement is worth the effort for something won't benefit you in the long run. Sorry but 2-3% expertise is not going to stop you from being 2-3 shot by people have 400+ expertise.... its only 20-30 expertise an enhancement going to get MAYBE 100 150 out of all that work...

 

your still going to be farmed by champ geared players.

[Torleen]

NO NO NO NO NO NO, this is not why most people pvp... they pvp for pvp gear because they would rather smash other players than run ops over and over. If you would like a gear free pvp bracket be my guest but no one will be playing.

 

I am willing to bet my subscription on that.

[Irudious]

I don't understand #3...it's acceptable that a level 49 plasters a level 20...and yet someone who is already a Battlemaster and put in way MORE time than a fresh 50 has, far MORE time than the ratio of L49:L20, somehow doesn't deserve to plaster them? That just doesn't add up.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't even think Battlemasters get an instant win button. I didn't get free Ilum gear. I play Republic. I work full time, have kids. I have just about everything going against me - I still managed to get a full suit of Champ armor minus the chest without too much work. The expertise gap slowly whittled away and now I really don't care. I paid my dues, and the playing field is now even enough that the game can be considered team vs. team again, just like in the lower level bracket.

 

Sure, people with better gear killed me. What you seem to forget is that a lot of those people got better gear because they were better players. It's not just about time, whether you want to think that or not.

 

If people with better gear suck, I kill them. There's no massive invisible barrier to my success. If they earned their gear, I find out when they bash my skull in.

 

If I'm in a PUG, fighting a coordinated team, I shouldn't even open my mouth, because, well, I should be losing. Nobody brings up the obvious disparity between teams with voice servers and teams without them. There's a massive advantage to players using Vent, etc. There's also a mentality when people play with PUGs that they can go in and 1v1 someone. If you want to 1v1 someone go wander the worldservers...Warzones are about team play, and the coordinated team will focus down your healers and then murder you if you're not cooperating.

 

Best advice for newly geared 50's if you're really into PVP is to roll with good teammates, and try to learn your class better. Having the humility to admit that you need to learn more will go a long way. Even those of us that were in Beta learned more after the game launched. I'm still learning every day I play.

 

TL:DR version - no, you're playing the wrong type of game if you think you deserve free items to put you on par with someone who invested way more time, or if you think that people shouldn't be rewarded for investing hard work. The guy in Battlemaster gear that killed you wasn't a bot, even though some of them did get bags in Easy Mode - that's not their fault, it's BioWare's.

Dude, THANK YOU! I like how you make it very clear that getting gear is not some kind of unobtainable goal that only losers with no life can achieve... Getting Warlord in vanilla wow, now that was a different story. I think its interesting how people who are bad at pvp complain about others in heavy pvp gear having " no life". Lets face some simple facts here.

Fact # 1 It does NOT take that long to accumulate enough points to get some decent pvp gear

Fact # 2 If you are in a Warzone, all pvp is a team effort. Thus the skill of your team is what determines your success, not gear

Fact# 3 If you are bad at pvp then you can have all the gear in the world but you're still bad at pvp and therefore will get killed.

 

I read a lot of people complaining about how pvp should be more like FPS in the since that everyone is equal... Just a side note on this topic. Every FPS I have ever played had some kind of bread and butter glitch/hack/exploit that allowed other players to slaughter you without mercy. And some FPS even allow you to use better weapons once you have " grinded" or spent a long time being a " loser" to get a score high enough to obtain the better weapons.

WHY IS THERE PVP GEAR??? Simply so that people who spend their time pvping on a game that was designed to progress a character have a sense of reward.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Paralassa
rude attacks

[DarthOvertone]

So is the combat in the 50's bracket where you can rack up kills by squishing people with little to no effort who don't have as much gear as you "Quality" combat?

 

The combat in the 50s bracket is infinitely superior to the garbage combat in the 1-49 WZs my Scoundrel does. I don't see many peeps getting squished. Most of the peeps on both sides in the 50s are very competent and bring a hardcore fight. The fights are absolutely intense and fun.

 

There is nowhere near the intensity or skill in the 1-49 WZs. Players are so bad my Scoundrel was able to drop a 200k spot at level 13. And talk about getting squished, the disparity between 40+ toons and those that are 10-25 is immense. There is no gulf like that at all in the 50s bracket.

[AstralProjection]

Absolutely not. "better" players don't need gear. That's the point. And no skill hacks who happen to have a lot of free time living in mom's basement are not by definition "better players".

 

The better player can step into the ring with someone with the same gear as they have. And still win consistently.

 

I like what you did there. I didn't say they *needed* the gear.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of people living in Mom's basement with no skill and too much time on their hands - I kill them even when their name says Battlemaster.

 

The good people still kill me or outright murder me. There's always someone out there better than you, no matter how good you think you are.

 

Knowing this, i don't think the gear is the issue.

 

I think the reason people enjoy the 1-49 bracket so much is that they don't take everything as personally as they do on their main.

 

For some reason people playing their mains just can't fathom the fact that someone is better than them or beat them fairly. It always has to be a nerfing issue, an exploit issue, a too much time issue, or an expertise issue.

 

I'd rather learn how to lose gracefully and learn from it instead of pushing the blame off on something else. An enemy in Battlemaster gear is not an automatic win if you know what you're doing.

[Morevil]

People are rerolling because they get owned against 50s and need a talent point / ability advantage to do well (i.e. they enjoy being the level 40 in a warzone full of level 12s). Anyone who thinks 10-49 is competitive is an idiot.

 

Don't speak for me. You know what I enjoy? Being level 12 and crushing level 40's.

[swooks]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

Solution:

Pre-req: everyone bolstered to equal stats ala 1-49 bracket.

 

Rewards:

 

1. PVP gear = cosmetic modable gear, with no PVP bonuses implications at all. Give people the cool 'battle/warmonger' looking gear through this method. It can have set bonuses still.

2. Even more cosmetics: unique titles, auras, impressive emotes, 'blazing eyes', 'blazing hands', etc.

3. Relatively low-impact PVP perks/abilities -- an extra CC break, a 15 second -30% dmg shield, a heal over time ability etc. usable in both PvP or PvE.

 

Problem solved.

[Felene]

People are rerolling because they get owned against 50s and need a talent point / ability advantage to do well (i.e. they enjoy being the level 40 in a warzone full of level 12s). Anyone who thinks 10-49 is competitive is an idiot.

 

Aren't you suppose to be done with TOR PVP since 12/28/2011?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Felene

[AstralProjection]

you really have no idea of the disparity between a champ geared player and someone has no expertise do you? let me give you a good example.

 

Level 20 player fights level 49 player now the 20 is bolstered up so he's at level 50 stats so is the 49. Now 49 has like 2% expertise form his level 40 set hardly going to make a difference. Two go toe to toe! the 20 gets the 49 to 25-35% hp before he dies.

 

now lets check level 50 situation!

 

level 50 fresh player with all purple 49 set, goes into pvp vs a champ geared player. The 50 proceeds to TWO SHOT the level 50 player instantly killing him inside of first 5-6 seconds of combat.

 

The difference between a fresh 50 and someone has basic champ/centurion set is IMMENSE! your taking 5-6k crits on average, your hp is only about 12k in comparison to someone has champ set and is sitting at 15k hp. On top of this cant even hurt them because of the 15% damage reduction, and 15% healing increase. What it amounts to is this...anyone NOT in champ/centurion gear is on /farm and that is what people are griping about.

 

Also i kinda have to laugh at whole " BUT THEY ARE MORE SKILLED IF THEY HAVE CHAMP/BM!" what? what? i don't even... let us examine this! =D

 

Champ bags are gained through dailys, or via buying bags on pvp vender, BM bags are aquired through VALOR grinds! thus in order to get gear only requires one thing.... /afk in warzones. Yes you heard me i can enter a warzone and do NOTHING and still gain enough valor and badges to aquire said gear.

 

SKILL IS NOT A FACTOR!

 

you do not need to be good at pvp to aquire pvp gear, only time or a program to constantly que you for warzones and run out the front gate. Not that hard to get said programs and yes might get you banned but, most are macro programs and its hard to bann those since only clicking screen.

 

So whole post hardly makes any sense we aren't asking for gear to be removed or progression to go away. We ARE asking that either a starter set to give us a decent amount of expertise so we are not 2 shot by champ/BM(we will still lose just not in 2.5 seconds) and actually have some semblance of a chance. Right now is no reason to que for warzones because all of the premades are just FARMING non-geared players.

 

THAT ISNT FUN

THAT ISNT ENJOYABLE

 

Frankly do you expect us to just deal with it? much rather play a lowbie in 1-49 then be on /farm from those are in high end gear. so as i said...

 

either remove the premade/champ/bm geared players from warzones or give us a decent crafted starter set or purchased set so we can actually stand up to them. But REAL issue is expertise and what its doing..untill that is fixed none of this matters.

 

Sorry bud, never been two shot. Even when people claimed Ops could do it.

 

If you are, you're probably wearing level 40 blues and not using your defensive cooldowns. Something tells me you haven't played in the 50 bracket, because even with no PVP gear there was no barrier to winning.

 

 

If it isn't fun I'd stop doing it, you sound like you're having too hard a time anyway.