Metalmac Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp. When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game. The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick? Well when people started playing all those games like Doom, UnReal, or thousands of others they all had the same gear. PVP if fun without the gear. Otherwise your argument would be that no one ever buys or plays these other games? The problem is the PVP players insist they need a assentive to PVP, this is a lie. I do not need a assentive to PVE or PVP. It is a game. Figure it out and do not accept lies based on no proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrinNfool Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 In my experience the vast majority of "PvPers" are also raiders. Just saying. I have yet to meet a "PvPer" who didn't raid. I have met plenty of PvE players that didn't PvP though' TL;DR: You case falls apart went you look at PvPers in general because they are also raiders. Wow a compelling argument allow me to counter with another equally well thought out and well reasoned reply. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modecrypt Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 In my experience the vast majority of "PvPers" are also raiders. Just saying. I have yet to meet a "PvPer" who didn't raid. I have met plenty of PvE players that didn't PvP though' TL;DR: You case falls apart went you look at PvPers in general because they are also raiders. I know lot of the folks, including myself, have full sets of high tier PVP gear and haven't even done a single flashpoint or raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Im not, im telling you that you are part of a bitter, tiny minority that could never support a single game even if every single one of you went there to play. Are you basing this guess off of MMOs that have been successful in the west aside from WoW? If so, which ones? Edited February 1, 2012 by BDutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEnsign Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick? To be honest, I could care less about those people as they are not PvPers but PvEers who don't want to deal with competing with other people for loot drops in flashpoints/operations. They can sit in the chair all day riding their teams coat-tails to easy epics and feel all warm and fuzzy inside ignorantly thinking they are somebody now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What you want is a fighting game or an FPS. I don't see why you don't just go play one. It's EXACTLY what you want. You can even get the online play. With FPS you can play with multiple people at the same time. You should try it out! Except with the way some FPS games are going, they're turning into RPG progression. Take BF3 for example. You get ranks and the higher rank you are, the better accessories, weapons, and character skills you unlock. Those things still give your char an advantage, and still comes down to the longer someone plays, the better stuff they get. I haven't played MW series in a long while, but I recall there was some similar progression to it. So even FPS are going that way, to some extent. It's kinda sad really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoLaN Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Developers should just move progression/attention from gear to something else as much addicting and less penalizing for the whole experience. They should work on a system where people feel rewarded and are still able to brag if they are succesful in PvP. I really think almost everyone would be happy to have a lot more character and item customization options that wont affect stats as a reward for their PvP efforts. New systems and mechanics that play on intricacies between player factions, to allow smart players to have fun and make the battles much more interesting. Sometimes i feel game designers take the easy route not because of their lack of imagination, but since these multimillion dollar projects are forced to follow a safe way even if new ideas would clearly work and benefit the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felene Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 We have already suggested many alternatives. Indeed you have, you have post the same thing over and over again for almost 6 months now in beta and launch forum yet nothing in pvp changes your way. You know the definition of insanity is right? Don't do this to yourself and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 THERE IS A VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION. I happen to like gearing up via PVP, as I dislike raids and PVE in general. However, that does not mean that the gear I get should automatically make me beat everyone who does not have as much time to PVP as I do solely because of my gear. If I am a better player then I will win because I practiced more and got better. Period. Now, the concern of people getting PVE gear and ruling PVP is a valid concern. However this can be solved by simply allowing people to use the PVP gear system to get gear that is equivalent to those who are PVEing. Again, I like getting gear through PVP. But that does not mean I need to handicap everyone trying to get into PVP. That whole attitude is actually where the whiny "entitlement" fingers should be pointed. You want to win? Get better at PVP. If you need a grind crutch, you are not a better player. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I really don't see why we can't just have it both ways. The 10-49 bracket is already halfway there, they'd just have to make a couple changes to it (see sig). If people want to pvp for gear then they play with people just like them. If people don't want to pvp for gear then they play with people just like them. If after a while one queue no longer pops then you have your answer. If both queues stay healthy then it's just to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Indeed you have, you have post the same thing over and over again for almost 6 months now in beta and launch forum yet nothing in pvp changes your way. You know the definition of insanity is right? Don't do this to yourself and others. Actually, several changes I have suggested or supported have been implemented. So no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) In my experience the vast majority of "PvPers" are also raiders. Just saying. I have yet to meet a "PvPer" who didn't raid. I have met plenty of PvE players that didn't PvP though' TL;DR: You case falls apart went you look at PvPers in general because they are also raiders. PvE'ers who PvP aren't the same as those who PvP just to PvP. By your logic, I can say that the majority of PvE'ers I see PvP are less skilled PvPers. And because that's what I see, it must mean everything revolves around that, right? But I will say this. Just because people can drive, doesn't automatically make them a great driver. Edited February 1, 2012 by Lazorous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I really don't see why we can't just have it both ways. The 10-49 bracket is already halfway there, they'd just have to make a couple changes to it (see sig). If people want to pvp for gear then they play with people just like them. If people don't want to pvp for gear then they play with people just like them. If after a while one queue no longer pops then you have your answer. If both queues stay healthy then it's just to each their own. This should be the solution honestly. If they want gearflation PVP let them have it. Give us our rated non-gear oriented PVP bracket. I think the problem is that some of these people would not be happy if we were not around to be victimized by their grinding obsession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think the problem is that some of these people would not be happy if we were not around to be victimized by their grinding obsession. Probably so, but if we were not able to reap their rewards in any way then it doesn't really leave much room to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varcan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The thing is no matter what the devs do, unless there was no gear period, people are going to make the gear complaint. Sometimes its true, but just as many times a person just loses because they're bad and don't know it, or can't admit it. So they blame the gear obviously. This game has one of the shortest gear grinds in history. If you've been 50 for more than 3 weeks and you're still blaming the gear, you might just want to look in the mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felene Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Actually, several changes I have suggested or supported have been implemented. So no. Expertise and Sorc? So no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Expertise and Sorc? So no. Those battles are not over. Several others have been won. Ask the OP ops how their burst damage epeen is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtosKincaid Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Fact: MMOs that had PvP that tried to survive without the carrot are all universal failures. Reality: If you dont provide a reason to play (character advancement) people wont play. That simple. Adapt or quit PvPing. There aren't enough people who will "just PvP to PvP" to support a game. They dont exist. Your "fact" is BS. DAoC was successful for years without a gear treadmill. You got to level cap, you got your spellcrafted gear (which was all player made and easily obtainable with a minimum level of effort), and you were good to go. What killed that game was the introduction of required PvE to do RvR in Trials of Atlantis. Shortly after ToA was released and the masses had a chance to discover what a giant mess it was, WoW promised better PvP that didn't require a stupid gear grind. Blizzard made it, and they've always produced fantastic games, so it must be true right? So people left, and DAoC mostly died. By the time those of us who wanted real RvR and PvP realized we'd been duped, it was really too late and we'd all turned into carebears because we just did the PvE grind without thinking much about it after the ToA debacle in DAoC. Yes, renown ranks and abilities made a difference, but when you integrate them into the base class like SWTOR has, they aren't necessary and never served as a major reason to RvR because after the first few you had the important abilities and you were good to go. TL;DR - People who enjoy PvP and RvR do it because they enjoy the competition and they don't need any representative of their success other than a ranking scoreboard. Edited February 1, 2012 by ArtosKincaid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestic- Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This post is stupid Dev please lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pojectshadow Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 There can never true "Balance" in PvP in any MMO. To do this you would need to make all classes have the same abilities and same stats. Even if you have everyone with the same stats PVP will just be and still is ROCK<PAPER<SCISSORS<ROCK. So you would just be complaining about "X" class being better then "Z" class. Besides your building gear way higher then it is; i rarely pvp and play a PVE ST tank spec i have few champ and few cent i roll the floor with most dps classes but cant kill healers regardless of gear. The dps class that beat me tend to be more skilled then me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidJustice Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) The solution: Degrading Gear (gear at 0 has 0 stats and can't be repaired) Currency 4 kills Gear crafted by players Gear 4 currency (The above system is tuned so that the most common Pvp gear degrades slower than the currency earned to purchase it: net player currency gain from pvp) (economic sinks for player gained pvp currency from cool toys / consumables / possibly currency paid for content) Think special dungeons you pay ingame currency to enter; travel, super uber but lootable gear, etc...) This way you set up a cycle where... you pvp for currency to buy gear you slowly lose as you pvp. Also Player looting but... **** that's not a conversation that can be had rationally with Wow muppets. Edited February 1, 2012 by VoidJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cylestat Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Your nuts if you think SWG wasn't a grind fest for top end PVPers. Think you can compete with my mind fire weapons killing you before you have any idea what's up? Doubt it. Think you can PVP against me when I have 3 AT-ST's behind me? Your nuts. Think you can PVP against me with me 100% Energy/kinetic armor, my secondary macroed stun armor? lolz, don't think so. Lets not take into account my flawless krayt weapons, my flawless lightsaber pearls? Doubt it. Do you think I would risk my 2400 PVP rating vs your 1200 by using gear that you have? lolz. Sorry to burst your SWG PVP bubble. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but if you think that game valued skill over gear more or less than any other MMO than we didn't play SWG on the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidJustice Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Your nuts if you think SWG wasn't a grind fest for top end PVPers. Think you can compete with my mind fire weapons killing you before you have any idea what's up? Doubt it. Think you can PVP against me when I have 3 AT-ST's behind me? Your nuts. Think you can PVP against me with me 100% Energy/kinetic armor, my secondary macroed stun armor? lolz, don't think so. Lets not take into account my flawless krayt weapons, my flawless lightsaber pearls? Doubt it. Do you think I would risk my 2400 PVP rating vs your 1200 by using gear that you have? lolz. Sorry to burst your SWG PVP bubble. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but if you think that game valued skill over gear more or less than any other MMO than we didn't play SWG on the same level. If this was directed at my comment... All systems are tunable... only the truly mind locked.. believe the only type of game that can be constructed is an exact duplicate of one that already existed... not that I blame you or the hordes of Wow muppets that believe this... however, I do expect developers to "break the mold" and quit hasing out the same crap game over and over again. SWG/Darkfall/Eve are much better models for sustainable long term MMO's than WOW. All gear needs to be constrained so that there is marginal differences between normal and "the best" gear. Any system that allows gear to define who wins... sux... Edited February 1, 2012 by VoidJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Your nuts if you think SWG wasn't a grind fest for top end PVPers. Think you can compete with my mind fire weapons killing you before you have any idea what's up? Doubt it. Think you can PVP against me when I have 3 AT-ST's behind me? Your nuts. Think you can PVP against me with me 100% Energy/kinetic armor, my secondary macroed stun armor? lolz, don't think so. Lets not take into account my flawless krayt weapons, my flawless lightsaber pearls? Doubt it. Do you think I would risk my 2400 PVP rating vs your 1200 by using gear that you have? lolz. Sorry to burst your SWG PVP bubble. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but if you think that game valued skill over gear more or less than any other MMO than we didn't play SWG on the same level. SWG was around for a long time. DOT weapons went away after the CU. And even with the weapons you are talking about they degraded so they would not last forever. So someone getting lucky every now and then with a good slice or whatever did not give them a benefit forever. Also, since everything was crafted everything was attainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felene Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Those battles are not over. Several others have been won. Ask the OP ops how their burst damage epeen is doing. Battles? Crusade over a game? Seriously? Insanity is overrated in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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