What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[Tyranoc]

this is very player friendly mmo where getting pvp gear is too easy from doing pvp so I do not understand why the so called "skilful, ungeared, pve, casual" *cough* carebears keep crying about getting owned by the "unskilled" pvpers in full bm or champion gear.

 

ok fine these "skilful, ungeared pvers" players want pvp gear to be nerfed or to be closer to the top pve gear. ok that is fine, but let us all also make gear obtained from doing solo quests as good at the raid gear shall we, lets get rid of the orange gear at the corellia vendor and replace them with purple gear equal to rakata gear for the same price, after all its all about skill right, and it does not matter if u got it from killing a raid boss or the last elite boss in a solo instance.

 

 

Top PvE gear (Rakata) is an easy match for BM... On my Marauder my Rakata pieces have better armour, better endurance, better strength, and about 40000000000 times the amount of critical bonus.... I dont have expertise but i'll just crit your *** off... The healing boost expertise gives helps ALOT though in PvP. Somethign Rakata doesnt offer.

 

 

And I agree. It is too easy. Since release, even before I was geared I have not missed a daily or a weekly... Even if you lose a WZ i rake in 40 - 60 commendations. So in a 20 WZ losing streak i can still get my champ bags and get gear! It too freaking easy...

Yet here we are swamped with supposed "skilled" players, crying because they cant get any gear?

How skilled do you have to be to lose 20 matches? If you as so much win 1 WZ you get approx 90 - comms if not more.

 

Time to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really are "skillful" or if you are just a sore loser cry baby that wants the gear without the pain of opening bags and having to earn comms and valor.

My educated guess after reading all the heart felt sob stories they continue to post about it being "so unfair" is most of the people in here fall into the last category.

[Lightmaguz]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

 

You mean what wow's based on? serious pvp mmo's that came out in the last years tried to change it but weren't well accepted *looks sadly at WAR*

 

 

Ultima Online PVP was by far the most fun I've ever had in an MMO.

Even though you could loot your bodies corpse, the main reason to PVP was notoriety and bragging rights.

 

Not a huge fun of the gear but I understand people like farming that kind of stuff at the end game.

 

That guy knows the good stuff.

 

 

If you could derp and hit 1 button all day and get full PvP gear then why arent you fully geared?

 

I mean I'd love to derp it up and be fully geared... But i keep getting offhanders and relics instead of m boots and bracers!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The ability to do so doesn't make it fun or worthwhile, and bags are being "buffed" next patch anyway.

 

 

As much as I find gear dependant gameplay disgusting I think they're on the right track making it more accessible for new 50's not to be so stomped once they get there, the fact we still have to outfit the character with lots of daily comm stuff instead or we insta-die in any 50's wz is kinda sad but oh well.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Lightmaguz

[CapitaFK]

If you could derp and hit 1 button all day and get full PvP gear then why arent you fully geared?

 

I mean I'd love to derp it up and be fully geared... But i keep getting offhanders and relics instead of m boots and bracers!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Not sure if serious.

 

Or are you seriously trying to argue that the horrible RNG mechanic on bags is directly related to player skill?

 

How skilled do you have to be to lose 20 matches? If you as so much win 1 WZ you get approx 90 - comms if not more.

 

Time to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really are "skillful" or if you are just a sore loser cry baby that wants the gear without the pain of opening bags and having to earn comms and valor.

My educated guess after reading all the heart felt sob stories they continue to post about it being "so unfair" is most of the people in here fall into the last category.

 

Or we'd rather not derp in 20 mindless WZ every single day just to compete with gear.

 

People like you who think acquiring enough commendations for gear is directly related to player skill, I'd love to meet you in GW2 when it's released and see just how "skillful" you really are when we have the same gear and the same abilities, where all that matters is how well you can play your class and counter my attacks, and vice versa.

 

I'd have loved to see all these "PVP gear" kiddies run up on me in vanilla WoW at Tarren Mill or Goldshire, and end up getting kited all day despite being at a 2v1 advantage.

Edited February 7, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Greennunu]

Skill players dedicate time, they find a way through the hurdle if htey can't get over it. Games like GW and LOL made you guys lazy, that is all. Even I, who enjoy SB and other games that are not as gear dependent find getting gear on SWTOR ton easier. This is not WoW, cause it doesn't take me weeks to get one piece of top tier gear.

 

Even losing you get more than enough points to get geared, and that is assuming you lose every game and for some odd reason your team is made up of pure fresh level 50s and always going against a team of full BMs.

 

If you are talking about a mixed bag and your team, not you in a 1v1 gets decimated every game, then it's not gear, it's skill. You are in your solo mentality still, you suck, gear or no gear. I am not saying the people with gear does not have an advantage, but if you know that already then it shouldn't bother you to lose to them. Cause eventually you'll get a full champ set (took me less than 2 weeks of CASUAL play). And BM gear is not that much better than champ gear, considering you will be slotting most of the mods from Champ set to your BM set anyhow.

[CapitaFK]

Skill players dedicate time

 

Stopped reading here. Time spent doesn't amount to skill. It could arguably lead to becoming more familiar with the class, but seriously? Just how difficult are the mechanics in this game to require any more than levels 1-49 to learn to play your class?

 

After that, it's just whoever has the most amount of time to spend grinding it out, and has absolutely nothing to do with being skilled. I've seen so many people in full Champion gear and gearing out Battlemaster who honestly don't know what to do after their ability gets canceled and just stand there with their finger up their butt.

 

Speaking of which, the fact that so many people got Battlemaster by sitting in Ilum all day trading kills with the opposite faction. That equals skill too, I bet. In fact, a good amount of them start bragging about how great they are for being Battlemaster. It's like, dude, you stood in a group and got AOE'd by Republics, respawned and typed /stuck, then AOE'd them back a few minutes later, back and forth, for 10 hours straight. So much skill!

Edited February 7, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Delekii]

Um... I think you are confused... With my Cube equiped my Expertise is 590...

 

590 expertise =

 

+11.37 Damage Boost in PvP

+11.37 Damage Reduction in PvP

+11.37 Healing Boost in PvP

 

11.37% Damage boost + 11.37% damage reduction does not equal 22.74% or 20% damage boost like you claim.

 

If I earn 30% more than you, and am 45% richer than you, that does not mean my wage is 75% more than yours...

 

Your logic confuses me...

 

What? You are an idiot, I am not surprised my logic confuses you. Your analogue is not remotely analogous.

 

We both earn $100 a week. You get a lucky hat that causes you to earn 10% more, and me to earn 10% less. You now earn $110 and I now earn $90. You now earn 122% of what I earn (110/90). The 10% you got from your hat double dips, and as a result you have made our earnings SPREAD more than double that 10% (22%). We used earn the same amount of money, but your hat, which causes you to gain 10% earnings and me to lose 10% earnings causes our salaries to now differ by 22%.

 

 

Expertise double dips.

[Delekii]

flaw in your theory:

 

You DONT both start at 100% damage.

 

Youll lose (pretty conservatively) almost 150-200 bonus damage going from PvE to PvP gear. (from lost main stat and the like).

 

On my shots as a sniper.. thats a loss of more than 13% damage. 450 damage on ambush alone. (which is a 22% loss) and this isn't even counting lost crit and surge rating into the mix.

 

So, given equal gear (Battlemaster V Rakata, Columi V Champ, and the equally useless Tionese V Centurion), the PvP guy starts at a deficit.

 

If i do 1000 dps in Rakata, for instance... a Battlemaster starts at 800dps.

 

(just made up numbers, but the percentages aren't off by much).

 

So if he gets a 13.5% damage bonus...

 

thatll bring him up to 930dps or so, still below the guy in Rakata.

 

That's the point im trying to make. Couple that with the guy in Rakata ALSO having a lot more HP (up to 3k more depending on class) .. and it becomes something of a wash.

 

And thats what im saying - given equal item levels, its a wash. It's meant to prevent PvP gear from PvE, not the other way around.

 

 

Your numbers are not correct. It's really that simple.

 

I compared Battlemaster gear to Rakata level gear for Enforcer, which is I assume operative? All the sets follow a similar pattern of stat distribution per AC though.

 

 

These numbers do not include relics, because relics more often than not have a large proc and not so much stats. Anyway.

 

http://i39.tinypic.com/2cmk9hi.jpg

 

For the 600ish expertise you gain wearing battlemaster over rakata, you lose almost exactly 100 cunning and only a handful of secondary stats - 105 cunning with buff.

 

Ambush has a coefficient of 3.29, and you get 1 bonus damage per 5 cunning, or close enough. The difference in cunning is worth less than 100 TOOLTIP damage on your ambush. There are other factors at play. You probably get slightly more than that in tooltip damage after any talents that increase ambush damage, I dont know sniper well enough to know. It's not a big deal anyway, the difference doesn't even come close to what expertise does.

 

On the other hand, if you have the said ~13% expertise that you have in full battlemaster gear, and your ambushes average 2800 damage, that means you are ambushing others for 2800*1.13=3164 TOOLTIP, and they are ambushing you for 2900 (being generous and giving you the full 100 tooltip damage) /1.13=2566 TOOLTIP.

 

Again I repeat, if you are wearing anything other than PvP gear in PvP, you are doing it wrong.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Delekii

[babiegirlla]

It teaches you that people who newly hit 50 don`t want to work for their cent/champ gear like everyone else who, before them did, and wants their gear handed to them because they expect to just hit 50 and compete with other people when in the history of games, that`s just not how it works.

 

everyone will have close to equal gear at some point, but there would be no point in PvP and gearing up if you didn`t feel stronger than some people. some people just need to deal with it and stop whining.

[Greennunu]

Stopped reading here. Time spent doesn't amount to skill. It could arguably lead to becoming more familiar with the class, but seriously? Just how difficult are the mechanics in this game to require any more than levels 1-49 to learn to play your class?

 

After that, it's just whoever has the most amount of time to spend grinding it out, and has absolutely nothing to do with being skilled. I've seen so many people in full Champion gear and gearing out Battlemaster who honestly don't know what to do after their ability gets canceled and just stand there with their finger up their butt.

 

Speaking of which, the fact that so many people got Battlemaster by sitting in Ilum all day trading kills with the opposite faction. That equals skill too, I bet. In fact, a good amount of them start bragging about how great they are for being Battlemaster. It's like, dude, you stood in a group and got AOE'd by Republics, respawned and typed /stuck, then AOE'd them back a few minutes later, back and forth, for 10 hours straight. So much skill!

 

I'm sorry but you're an idiot if you think 1-49 is all you need to be competitive and from then all that matters is gear. Players will continual adapt to each others player as they adapt to you, their play style and their team synergy changes with each new experience. I am going to go ahead and throw your argument out completely and not hold it agains't the "skill based" PvPers.

 

I could care less if they got Battlemaster by idling in illium all day or grind WZ. I do know the difference when I fight them, the ones who got it legit will always be harder to fight than the ones who sat idle all day after they got to level 50. Bringing in exploiters as a basis of skill vs gear is invalid. Exploiters win because they exploit, they get the title, but the still wait to get the gear.

[Abiza]

The amount of nerd rage in this thread is mind blowing. If you don't like a game, don't play it. No one's opinion is better than anyone else's. Now get over yourselves.

[Jebi]

It teaches you that people who newly hit 50 don`t want to work for their cent/champ gear like everyone else who, before them did, and wants their gear handed to them because they expect to just hit 50 and compete with other people when in the history of games, that`s just not how it works..

 

In the history of what games exactly? WOW clones? PVP-Lite MMO's where PVP is just a sideshow?

 

Yeah well, shouldn't we be aiming a little higher than that?

 

Gear grinds belong in PVE, not PVP, as do gear discrepancies. Carebear MMO's have clouded your mind.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Jebi

[PsilosLon]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

EDIT TO CLEAR UP A MISCONCEPTION: I do not feel that gear should no longer be acquirable through PVP. I feel that gear should be attainable through PVP, and be on par with gear in PVE. And that the advantage gear affords be curbed in PVP across the board. I am not asking for PVE to cause someone to win PVP. Resilience was the wrong answer. Expertise is no better.

 

 

Totally agree.

There should also be an option to enable/disable xp gains from pvp so that people could stay at the 10-49 league as long as they wish

[aritha]

The amount of nerd rage in this thread is mind blowing. If you don't like a game, don't play it. No one's opinion is better than anyone else's. Now get over yourselves.

 

Exactly no idea is perfect for everyone. Because of that humanity invented democracy. Rules can change with the decision of majority without hurting minority.

[Abiza]

Totally agree.

There should also be an option to enable/disable xp gains from pvp so that people could stay at the 10-49 league as long as they wish

 

Why? So you can rap e lvl 20's missing abilities and talents to feel good about yourself all while dogging on how "it's not fair for fresh 50's in WZs but the 10-49 bracket is?" You and everyone else with this mentality are a joke.

[Genjuros]

Then stop playing mmos

[Beyaco]

Totally agree.

There should also be an option to enable/disable xp gains from pvp so that people could stay at the 10-49 league as long as they wish

 

Horrible idea...

 

Why, so we can have a bunch of level 49 twinks destroying the level 10s and 20s? You are complaining about entering the 50 bracket because of the gear gap, yet you want to create one in the 10-49 bracket? Hello, am I the only one who feels this way?

[Abiza]

Horrible idea...

 

Why, so we can have a bunch of level 49 twinks destroying the level 10s and 20s? You are complaining about entering the 50 bracket because of the gear gap, yet you want to create one in the 10-49 bracket? Hello, am I the only one who feels this way?

 

See the post I just made

 

Unfortunately, fighting illogical people with logic is a futile task.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Abiza

[UncleJimbo]

This thread is useless, no constructive talk, just people fighting with keyboards and absolutely no solution or possible fix.

As I see it, the main problem is with this new age MMO community that ask for a change/fix but never think of a solution to provide.

 

It is very simple in this case:

- do PvP when you level so you can get some gear at 50; I am level 30 and already have one box in the cargo and I am 700/700 commendations and the level 46 gun (which will be changed, but just in case and Valor rank 28)

- if you did not PvP before 50 do not be a scrub and go in level 40 - 45 green because you will get owned

- if you do not have gear help your team in other ways, I heard healink, taunting, guarding is good. If you are an ubber dps class and cannot spec into the above mentioned chances are that you have a stealth mode. Use it to your advantage and drop low HP players and pick battles that you have a fair chance to win, not that 20k Battlemaster tank.

- if you do not have gear and you suffer form acute dps disorder, then stick to a healer and protect him, do not worry if you get owned because you helped your team a lot by allowing the healer to throw a couple of extra heals to heavy geared players.

 

Really some of the players should learn how to play in a team, even if you are not in a premade. Most of these so called "WoW gladiators" refuse to be part of the team because random warzone/Ilum groups are full of re***rds, as they claim, but maybe if they started playing as a team and not as a Quake Arena frag master, then the games would be more fan and people would not complain as much, because they would be busy playing the game and hafing FUN.

 

TL;DR: The solution is simple, low gear players help the team out, do not think you're Rambo or Yoda even if you have a BFG or a flashy lightsaber.

[Inflicktion]

While I would tend to agree with the OP, it only makes sense that someone who has invested more time and effort into the game should be better. Stop posting on the forums and get some of your own gear and it comes back down to skill. . .

[Abiza]

This thread is useless, no constructive talk, just people fighting with keyboards and absolutely no solution or possible fix.

As I see it, the main problem is with this new age MMO community that ask for a change/fix but never think of a solution to provide.

 

It is very simple in this case:

- do PvP when you level so you can get some gear at 50; I am level 30 and already have one box in the cargo and I am 700/700 commendations and the level 46 gun (which will be changed, but just in case and Valor rank 28)

- if you did not PvP before 50 do not be a scrub and go in level 40 - 45 green because you will get owned

- if you do not have gear help your team in other ways, I heard healink, taunting, guarding is good. If you are an ubber dps class and cannot spec into the above mentioned chances are that you have a stealth mode. Use it to your advantage and drop low HP players and pick battles that you have a fair chance to win, not that 20k Battlemaster tank.

- if you do not have gear and you suffer form acute dps disorder, then stick to a healer and protect him, do not worry if you get owned because you helped your team a lot by allowing the healer to throw a couple of extra heals to heavy geared players.

 

Really some of the players should learn how to play in a team, even if you are not in a premade. Most of these so called "WoW gladiators" refuse to be part of the team because random warzone/Ilum groups are full of re***rds, as they claim, but maybe if they started playing as a team and not as a Quake Arena frag master, then the games would be more fan and people would not complain as much, because they would be busy playing the game and hafing FUN.

 

TL;DR: The solution is simple, low gear players help the team out, do not think you're Rambo or Yoda even if you have a BFG or a flashy lightsaber.

 

This thread is actually useless for an entirely different reason. BW is about to introduce entry level PVP gear to fresh 50's in the next patch. Gear gap be damned.

[Safgril]

Let me Paraphrase the OP here:

 

I enjoy twinking a level 49 and facerolling level 10s in the 10-49 rather then get to 50 and have it done to me in the same manner.

 

I am too lazy to work for the gear that was provided at 50 which is NOT that hard to get to be honest. If I would of Played warhammer online I would of thought that to be a ton harder then this game to get gear.

 

SO I will tell everybody on this forum that 10-49 is better...

 

end of paraphrase....

 

LOL are you kidding... you are doing exactly what you hate you at 50... by twinking a 49 out in gear with crafted items and orange gear and facing off on level 10's is just the same as what happens to fresh 50s in the 50 bracket.

 

whats the difference?

 

anyway, people like this make me laugh. Same type of person decked out in BM is the same as a twinked 49...

 

IRONY

[Abiza]

Let me Paraphrase the OP here:

 

I enjoy twinking a level 49 and facerolling level 10s in the 10-49 rather then get to 50 and have it done to me in the same manner.

 

I am too lazy to work for the gear that was provided at 50 which is NOT that hard to get to be honest. If I would of Played warhammer online I would of thought that to be a ton harder then this game to get gear.

 

SO I will tell everybody on this forum that 10-49 is better...

 

end of paraphrase....

 

LOL are you kidding... you are doing exactly what you hate you at 50... by twinking a 49 out in gear with crafted items and orange gear and facing off on level 10's is just the same as what happens to fresh 50s in the 50 bracket.

 

whats the difference?

 

anyway, people like this make me laugh. Same type of person decked out in BM is the same as a twinked 49...

 

IRONY

 

Can I hug you? A high five perhaps?

[Synxos]

 

DAOC realm point system was were it was at. All this grinding for gear is straight lame. Anyone who came from DAoc or game like shadow bane will tell you what real PVP is.

 

Yep, in shadowbane, not only could a max level player kill a level 20 player. But that max level player had best in slot items.

Those were the good old days.

 

Wait a second?

You guys are complaining that level 50s can kill you with better gear?

Man up and learn to play.

 

Anyone complaining about the gear system, obviously doesn't know much about PvP in RPGs. I have a feeling many posters here, have only had experience with WoW.

Nothing at all is stopping you from getting the gear yourself. In other games, people could actually stop you entirely from getting gear, or take it from your dead body.

[Kheldor]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

EDIT TO CLEAR UP A MISCONCEPTION: I do not feel that gear should no longer be acquirable through PVP. I feel that gear should be attainable through PVP, and be on par with gear in PVE. And that the advantage gear affords be curbed in PVP across the board. I am not asking for PVE to cause someone to win PVP. Resilience was the wrong answer. Expertise is no better.

 

Very well said.

 

It would be FAR better to have a system similar to Dark Age of Camelot where you earned Realm Points and purchased skills, buffs and abilities for the CHARACTER, not the gear. Then those that were skilled and pvp'd a long time would have their advantage that they want without it being tied to gear at all. However, a really skilled RR4 could take on a RR7 and have a shot, based on skill...not gear.

 

DAOC also had bracketed battlegrounds:

 

Level Groups

L20 - 24

L25 - 29

L30 - 35

L36 - 39

L40 - 44

L45 - 49

 

There was no such thing as a buff needed to simulate ballpark equality, it was unnecessary.

[SM_ru]

All those "gear should not matter in PVP" whiners forget 1 thing. Actually when you have equal gear with your enemy its all about skill vs skill again (though you can talk about classes differences and all this OP/UP thingy).

Also dont think that battlemaster title automatically gives you all bm gear at once. I`m a bm and still missing 2 pieces of champion (including mainhand lol). So your enemies might be not so overpowered as you think. And not to mention that bm set is just slightly better than champion and is not creating a huge difference at all.

Moreover - fighting against better geared/skilled opponents make you a better player. Its as simple as that. You learn how to manage ur fights, cds, how to escape with los and cc etc. Playing objectives instead of medal hunt helps too. A fresh 50 w 12k hp can be more usefull to the team, than some clueless bm.

Actually i find lvl50 pvp far more enjoyable, than 10-49 bracket. Facerolling lvl10s w your 40+ toon becomes boring very quickly.

And a last one - dont forget its mmorpg, and mmorpgs are all about your character progression. If you dont want to work for your gear, maybe its just not your kind of game. Go and play something else.

Edited February 7, 2012 by SM_ru