Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[KidRaid]

Thank you OP for actually making argument and not simply stating impression without explaining them. It shows a level a maturity that is often lacking in these boards.

 

 

This being said I cannot agree completely with you.

 

I will agree with you that I have soemtime been surprised to see how far they have gone in the stories while keeping their ESRB rating of Teen. I have thought on more than one occasion that the stories might have warranted a higher rating.

 

 

However I have to disagree with you on much of your other critics of the game story. I have found on the contrary that they have been able to show via the NPC that while the ruling class of the empire ( the sith) is dark and essensially evil, its citizen are not necessarly so. You meet soldiers that trully want to serve the empire, parents that want to protect their childrens, scientist that see science as their main goal, etc...

 

Similarly when you play the republic you find out that not all is bright and good there. Poeples have their own agenda.

 

All through this you are given choices to make which you chose is up to you. I the case of Vette you are not force to shock her and misstreat her . That is your choice, or if you are RP oriented the choice of your character.

 

 

I even have found that I cannot always equate light/dark with good/evil. In some cases what felt to me as the good choice was marked as dark (killing a mass murderer as a Trooper or killing a Sith lord as a Sith inquisitor). And sometime the reverse was true. The choices however made sense in a light/dark dichotomie. Light is not = good. It is about serenity, abandonement of self and service to other. Dark is not about evil per say but it is about Self , about extreme emotions : rage , hate but also love which is why in TOR they have established that the Jedis are not suppose to fall in love and mary. These shades are what I have liked about the story telling so far.

 

 

Respecfully

[drdarpa]

The ratio of QQ to pew-pew in this thread is abnormally high...

 

But then again, people have to be outraged about something, right?

[pmalygris]

Yes it is both evil and venal, and goes into area that is perhaps one of the reasons that the empire failed and was luckily overcome in a few thousand years.

 

I am playing a Sith Juggernaut and I am enjoying the story at least up to my level (12).

 

I fully understand the concept of slave with all that entails. I do not shock Vette nor treat her as if she is my slave, rather a taciturn partner.

 

There is no monkey business going on there, I want her full functional to save my life with her very admirable gunslinging expertise.

 

Neither do I expect a video game to make me seriously take a concept like sexual violence against women or men any further than it has to to show how very ingrained abuse/violence and hatred drives this very twisted and malevolent culture.

 

The dark side is and can be a horrifying task master and lover. One wonders how any culture can florish in the face of such unmittigated and emotionally charged atmosphere yet, after thousands of years it does, somewhat.

 

Also, I wonder how any culture controlled by unemotional, and disconnected light side force users functions as well.

 

We are a gray people. So for us, both sides have their allure, but also a danger, I cant live in either place.

 

In the darkness I will be a light and in the light I will cast shadow.

 

 

Ingvar 12 Juggernaut of the Sith

Gray 14 Shadow of the Jedi

[LyriaFrost]

It's funny, people keep posting responses to the OP in this thread, even though he hasn't posted anything for about a week.

[tehjai]

It's funny, people keep posting responses to the OP in this thread, even though he hasn't posted anything for about a week.

 

The OP's been shown to ignore anything that doesn't jive with their opinion, but I kinda do think this has run its course now. Unless, of course, the OP comes back and actually deals with the questions that's been asked of them.

 

All that said, though -- the discussions herein have been quite illuminating and I enjoy this thread very much.

[pmalygris]

It's funny, people keep posting responses to the OP in this thread, even though he hasn't posted anything for about a week.

 

Its ok its the concept of the post that I enjoy addressing .

 

The OP made a decent point that some bad things are not adequately evaluated as Mature.

 

But the ratings commitee are all on the ball when it comes to Visual examples of say nudity vs conceptual examples of much much worse.

 

It falls under conceptualizing a story vs showing straight old naughtyness. heh..

 

Whatever. It was her point I thought it was valid.

 

 

mal

[DervimNorth]

Its ok its the concept of the post that I enjoy addressing .

 

The OP made a decent point that some bad things are not adequately evaluated as Mature.

 

But the ratings commitee are all on the ball when it comes to Visual examples of say nudity vs conceptual examples of much much worse.

 

It falls under conceptualizing a story vs showing straight old naughtyness. heh..

 

Whatever. It was her point I thought it was valid.

 

 

mal

 

Nah, it's obvious that everyone in the committee rolled a sorc

 

But being serious-yeah. No nudity means no rating M.

[Aloro]

Also an ESRB rating that fails to acknowledge the deeply rooted gender and torture related issues that present themselves.

 

I think you're fixating on one possible relationship with one companion for one class and trying to generalize from that to the rest of the game. The problem is, the pattern that is so troubling to you isn't one that I believe actually exists. Which is to say, I don't think the "deeply rooted" gender issues exist in this game on any systemic level. It's been my experience that my male and female characters have roughly equal opportunities to flirt, do horrible things, objectify people, etc. Similarly, my male and female chars seem equally prone to this treatment from NPCs. My male and female characters also have copious opportunities to abuse their companions, then buy back those companions' affection with gifts. Indeed, a female Sith Warrior could spend all day every day literally beating on Malavai Quinn while he sobs, and still "romance" him.

 

Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad hobby; the first part anyhow. But I digress.

 

One datapoint (Vette's shock collar) does not indicate a trend. Incidentally, as several others have pointed out, there is NOTHING in the use of the collar that is in any way sexualized. It's just a way to be evil for evil's sake; there's no hidden metaphor there for sexual abuse. Vette doesn't respond as if there's any sexual element to the shocking, nor does the char doing the shocking.

 

Moreover, Vette doesn't take any crap from her master/mistress; you can torture her but you literally cannot break her spirit. If you want to romance her AT ALL you have to remove the collar first. She's a surprisingly strong character, and it's disappointing that you not only didn't see this, but projected the opposite onto her.

 

Torture is another issue entirely. Clearly that's thematically appropriate (it's been part of the Star Wars story since Vader tortured Leia in "A New Hope"), but one could question whether the way it's being presented is in keeping with T for Teen. Personally, I think those guidelines are more than a little arbitrary anyhow, and I feel that a parent who really wants to protect their children needs to be actively involved in approving entertainment. If you're trusting the word of random strangers to decide what's ok for your child, you're in trouble.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Aloro

[neir]

I think you're fixating on one possible relationship with one companion for one class and trying to generalize from that to the rest of the game. The problem is, the pattern that is so troubling to you isn't one that I believe actually exists. Which is to say, I don't think the "deeply rooted" gender issues exist in this game on any systemic level. It's been my experience that my male and female characters have roughly equal opportunities to flirt, do horrible things, objectify people, etc. Similarly, my male and female chars seem equally prone to this treatment from NPCs. My male and female characters also have copious opportunities to abuse their companions, then buy back those companions' affection with gifts. Indeed, a female Sith Warrior could spend all day every day literally beating on Malavai Quinn while he sobs, and still "romance" him.

 

Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad hobby; the first part anyhow. But I digress.

 

One datapoint (Vette's shock collar) does not indicate a trend. Incidentally, as several others have pointed out, there is NOTHING in the use of the collar that is in any way sexualized. It's just a way to be evil for evil's sake; there's no hidden metaphor there for sexual abuse. Vette doesn't respond as if there's any sexual element to the shocking, nor does the char doing the shocking.

 

Moreover, Vette doesn't take any crap from her master/mistress; you can torture her but you literally cannot break her spirit. If you want to romance her AT ALL you have to remove the collar first. She's a surprisingly strong character, and it's disappointing that you not only didn't see this, but projected the opposite onto her.

 

Torture is another issue entirely. Clearly that's thematically appropriate (it's been part of the Star Wars story since Vader tortured Leia in "A New Hope"), but one could question whether the way it's being presented is in keeping with T for Teen. Personally, I think those guidelines are more than a little arbitrary anyhow, and I feel that a parent who really wants to protect their children needs to be actively involved in approving entertainment. If you're trusting the word of random strangers to decide what's ok for your child, you're in trouble.

 

Best post evar...

[Galadark]

I have been playing the light side sith and actually its been really enjoyable and i haven't had to make any of those kinds of choices what so ever. The game gives the ability to choose how to play, i know a guy who watches his kid play his jedi and makes sure the kid takes the light side options. Its really up to the parents to take control of what kids see, to leave it up to another company to baby sit and watchout for other peoples feelings just seems a little unfair to that company, who is trying to reach out to a large amount of people. I understand and agree with some of your points but the truth of the matter is that no one is ever forced to pick the light side or dark side choice thats what makes the game fun.

[ErikModi]

On the subject of ratings systems, anyone interested should check out a documentary called This Film Not Yet Rated. It's about the MPAA, but a lot of the ideas I think carry over.

 

Someone, I think Trey Parker, makes a very interesting point at one point in the film. He contrasts a James Bond movie with something like, say, The Godfather. Now, in The Godfather, very few people are actually killed, but those who are die in an incredibly graphic and bloody fashion. Meanwhile, in once scene of one James Bond movie, he guns down some 200 people, but there's no blood or gore or sign of injury or pain, just "bang bang fall over bang bang." The point he makes is that the Jame Bond version of violence is very heavily fantasized, an unrealistic and consequence-free portrayal of what violence is like, while The Godfather is a very realistic, shocking,k accurate portrayal of what real violence is like. Since the more adult, grown-up, mature mind is more readily able to realize that the James Bond violence is the less realistic portrayal, the James Bond violence should actually receive the higher rating, since it requires the more mature mind to appreciate its unrealism.

[LadyKohastFel]

I had to produce my drivers license as proof of age to buy this game at the store because of the M rating. The evil does not concern me too much I enjoy my sith marauder being a psychopathic killer , but it will seriously cut into sales. I have seen more than one teen being turned away from buying the game owing to the ratings laws.

[iknoghostmagic]

I pretty much did the most horrible things i could and i enjoyed every second of it had a laugh why ? because its a game

[Prolapse]

White knight.

[Mutive]

I thought the game went a bit too far too.

 

One of my friends ditched the SW story as she was tired of what she felt were gross overtones of violence (generally glorified) in the story line.

 

And I felt like, at the very least, between the torture scenes, really disgusting sex, psychosis, and allusions to **** in the agent story line, that it should carry some kind of warning. (Don't get me wrong - I loved the story. But...a huge portion of the story was highly unsettling and definitely triggering.)

 

IDK. I'm torn in that I'm very hesitant to say what should be off limits in any media. But basically taking Mission Vao, updating her age so that she was legal, then giving you the opportunity to shock her and make her watch you have sex feels...a bit sick.

 

And the rating does feel rather low. Again, I don't mind the content existing, but I do feel like some kind of warning might be good. (Esp, as I don't feel like parts of the game is at all appropriate for younger teens, who can legally buy it.)

[ProfessorWalsh]

I had to produce my drivers license as proof of age to buy this game at the store because of the M rating. The evil does not concern me too much I enjoy my sith marauder being a psychopathic killer , but it will seriously cut into sales. I have seen more than one teen being turned away from buying the game owing to the ratings laws.

 

This game doesn't have an M rating.

 

The ESRB has rated this game as T for Teen.

[Darwintheiguana]

So, I think your original post is getting and two separate things. It seems to me that you think this game should be given and "M" rating. But, as far as I can tell, it fits the ESRB criteria for a T for Teen game.

 

From the ESRB ratings guide and definitions:

Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

 

Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

 

While the first sentence of each rating definition seem to be pretty open for interpretation (content that may be suitable for persons ages X and older), it seems that the rating it has fits.

The game does not have blood and gore, and the violence is all pretty vanilla. While you and I can identify what is done to Vette as sexual violence, I don't quite see how it is any more than "suggested."

 

So you could absolutely make a case for the rating system flawed, but I don't feel as if that is what you're doing.

 

The other point, I think, is that there is [suggestive] sexual violence, slavery, genocide, and all manner of mean nasty things that the Empire does. And, if it was written better, it would be okay, but because it is not written well it is not okay. You find it to be personally offensive.

 

If the writing was smart, if it was well done and conveyed the sense of dread with an element of satire or commentary, or even presented itself as remotely problematic I might be able to stomach playing an Imperial. As of now, I'm just stunned this isn't being talked about more by the media.

 

The negligence enacted by journalists and our culture to this sort of degenerate content also points as to why video games have such a gosh darn long way to go before they garner even a morsel of the integrity possessed by cinema or music (which hardly set the bar high themselves). Yeah, I'll stick to Republic.

 

I hardly see how any potentially offensive content in The Old Republic should garner any journalistic attention at all. These sorts of things are always sensationalized, a la "Grand Theft Auto is turning our teenagers into murderers."

I don't even see where you are going with the whole 'integrity' of video games versus perceived integrity of cinema and music. There are well written games and poorly written games. There are well written films and poorly written films.

In fact, the original Star Wars trilogy had genocide and torture. Is it threatening the integrity of cinema, because I wouldn't say that it dealt with these themes in any way more or less sensitively than The Old Republic.

 

tl;dr I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Maybe if you don't have the stomach to play T rated games, than you should not play T rated games.

[Darbon]

Excellent original post.

 

This certainly deserves more attention, both on these forums, as well as from writers of this game and others.

 

Top drawer post!

[ByronixHero]

While you and I can identify what is done to Vette as sexual violence, I don't quite see how it is any more than "suggested."

 

But why do you identify Vette's torture as sexual violence? It's beyond me how the OP, and if I'm reading this right, you, think shocking her is a sexual.

[sparklecat]

But why do you identify Vette's torture as sexual violence? It's beyond me how the OP, and if I'm reading this right, you, think shocking her is a sexual.

 

I think the point is that you can conceive of a character that could take it that way, not that it's implied by the scenes themselves. Personally, I think it's very reasonable to look at say, the initial scene where you meet her, and extrapolate from the idea that the jailer (and possibly your Sith) enjoy shocking her to the idea that they'd enjoy other methods of expressing their power over her, but that's not at all the same thing as the shocking being sexual in itself, you're quite right.

 

 

Perhaps the problem is that people are making that jump, which is quite a natural one to make, without recognizing that it isn't actually necessary, and not everyone is going to do the same?

[Bielduwyn]

I think you're fixating on one possible relationship with one companion for one class and trying to generalize from that to the rest of the game. The problem is, the pattern that is so troubling to you isn't one that I believe actually exists. Which is to say, I don't think the "deeply rooted" gender issues exist in this game on any systemic level. It's been my experience that my male and female characters have roughly equal opportunities to flirt, do horrible things, objectify people, etc. Similarly, my male and female chars seem equally prone to this treatment from NPCs. My male and female characters also have copious opportunities to abuse their companions, then buy back those companions' affection with gifts. Indeed, a female Sith Warrior could spend all day every day literally beating on Malavai Quinn while he sobs, and still "romance" him.

 

Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad hobby; the first part anyhow. But I digress.

 

One datapoint (Vette's shock collar) does not indicate a trend. Incidentally, as several others have pointed out, there is NOTHING in the use of the collar that is in any way sexualized. It's just a way to be evil for evil's sake; there's no hidden metaphor there for sexual abuse. Vette doesn't respond as if there's any sexual element to the shocking, nor does the char doing the shocking.

 

Moreover, Vette doesn't take any crap from her master/mistress; you can torture her but you literally cannot break her spirit. If you want to romance her AT ALL you have to remove the collar first. She's a surprisingly strong character, and it's disappointing that you not only didn't see this, but projected the opposite onto her.

 

Torture is another issue entirely. Clearly that's thematically appropriate (it's been part of the Star Wars story since Vader tortured Leia in "A New Hope"), but one could question whether the way it's being presented is in keeping with T for Teen. Personally, I think those guidelines are more than a little arbitrary anyhow, and I feel that a parent who really wants to protect their children needs to be actively involved in approving entertainment. If you're trusting the word of random strangers to decide what's ok for your child, you're in trouble.

 

Quoted for emphasis. I'd also like to add that in Europe that TOR enjoys a 16 and up rating, which doesn't seem to be a bad idea since you're letting people loose onto servers populated by random people on the internet, who can probably say and do far worse things than anything Bioware's writers ever penned.

 

Additionally, and more worrisome, I think that the topic creator is hoping to simply censor Bioware. Which is something that should never happen in any media form. You can agree or disagree on how Bioware handled some topics and subjects in this game, but they, and any other game developer, should always be free to try and cover any subject in their games. Besides, you can only learn by doing.

 

If you don't approve of the topic, or find it unsuitable for your kids, simply don't (let them) play the game.

[Shuno]

I haven't read this whole thread as it's somewhat daunting but....

 

When i first rolled my Sith warrior (female cyborg) i actually took the collar off first time and obviously being female she was not particulary a sex object.

 

If the OP was so mortified about this slave collar thing why did they not merely remove it?

[LittleCams]

I wonder ... how would you all react if Vette was a male ? Who would have said "This is horrible, this is free and sexual violence on a cute kind boy who wishes to help ! How can you be so passive in regards to violence towards men !" ?

 

[ErikModi]

since you're letting people loose onto servers populated by random people on the internet, who can probably say and do far worse things than anything Bioware's writers ever penned.

 

Which is why, under the rating the reasons for it on the box, you see "Online interactions not rated by the ESRB." Basically meaning that the ratings board is not, cannot, and will not be responsible for what other people say in-game.

[Aurondarklord]

ESRB ratings take into account only what is directly depicted in the game, they do not "read between the lines", so to speak. What is shown with Vette and the shock collar is not INHERENTLY sexual (with the exception of the post-marriage, consensual implied use of it). She never makes flirty comments or bondage jokes after being shocked, none of the lines your character uses when he or she shocks her are suggestive. There is no sexual violence in that, just plain old fashioned violence. If you choose to assume that your character is a sexual sadist and is getting off on torturing Vette, that's your prerogative as a role player, but it's not directly part of the game.

 

With regards to the aspect of having sex with Lady Grathan and forcing Vette to be involved, I think some people are taking that the wrong way and reading in connotations that weren't intended. It's a canonical fact that Vette was NOT forced to participate in a threesome, you can romance her after that, and she will still say she's a virgin when you get married. As for making her watch, once again, if you assume that your sith warrior enjoys making Vette watch him have sex with other women, that's something you read into your character, not something Bioware directly included. The dialogue was something like "Vette never leaves my side", not "I want her to watch". The way that line was written more suggests that your character does not trust Lady Grathan enough to want to be alone with her, which isn't unreasonable, she just had you kill the last man she slept with, who's to say she won't tie up loose ends? Thus, you have Vette stay as your bodyguard. She's icked out by having to, but it's not inherently misogynistic, bodyguards (who in the real world are mostly men) have been protecting their masters during, and cleaning up after, their vices since the dawn of civilization, look at any third world dictator. Can you imagine what THEIR bodyguards have to stomach seeing?