Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[rainbowsix]

Having read some of the posts in this thread, I only see one thing in which I wish to comment upon and that is while this game may have a Teen rating, I don't actually believe it's marketed at those who fall under that rating. Perhaps they did but they failed at marketing it to kids of those ages, but in my personal experience, most people playing this are generally over the age of 25. My entire guild is comprised entirely of people over the age of 30 save for me. Therefore I don't think that it was wrong of them to place such choices in this game because most of us are adults and understand right from wrong. Plus, like someone else said, in the movies they were just as sick going as far to destroy an entire planet just to prove a point to Princess Leia. Edited February 4, 2012 by rainbowsix

[Urivial]

It seems like the OP went into this game thinking it was going to be WoW in space.

 

Why do so many people try to compare TOR and WoW? They aren't anywhere close to the same. The only real similarity is sometimes in the game mechanics, but that's about it.

 

In SWTOR, both factions are not grey. The Empire is Evil, the Republic is good. Now, Bioware has made this more than 1 dimensional by making it so the individuals have the ability to choose to be good or evil, but if you play evil on Republic, you'll find your NPC peers looking at you like you've gone insane. Just like if you played good on Imperial, you'd find your superiors wondering if they're going to have to kill you.

 

So you can expect pretty gruesome dark side options as a Sith/Imperial. Some of the Republic dark side options are fairly crazy too. that's why the dark side IS the dark side. It = evil.

 

 

TL;DR Star Wars is not World of Warcraft. If you expect it to feel like WoW, you're just going to be disappointed.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Urivial

[Lord_of_Stone]

I know this is 500 posts in, but I just read the OP, and I'll respond:

 

I played LS imperial agent and say very little of the Empires over the top brutality. From the Agents perspective, the Empire is simply a large political body interested in maintaining its sovereignty and destroying the Republic. And thats the beauty of this game, every class gets a small glimpse at the larger picture, each a facet of the same gem. However, the Imperial agent (towards the end) gets a bit of a larger view of the bigger picture

 

Regardless, I playing one class is being exposed to one fourth of the Empire intimately. I would certainly like to hear from someone who has completed all 4 Empire classes, I dont think they would be quick to agree with the OP.

[Emrakkia]

The OP is utterly incorrect on so many levels, not the least of which is his inability to recognize that the phenomenal writing which is drawing him in, is what is making the insidious evil of the empire so shocking to his tender sensibilities.

[Faerox]

You're one of those people who spam general chat with crap about family values aren't you?

[sparklecat]

So you can expect pretty gruesome dark side options as a Sith/Imperial. Some of the Republic dark side options are fairly crazy too. that's why the dark side IS the dark side. It = evil.

 

Possibly the most ridiculous part of this whole conversation, aside from how almost everyone's ignoring Quinn, is that your dark side options really aren't even as terrible as they ought to be, realistically speaking, in regards to Vette. They very slightly hint at what a slave serving a Sith could expect; what is it that people who have a problem with how she's handled would prefer? That we can't play Sith? That Bioware makes it even more ridiculous by just pretending the life of a slave is going to be sunshine and puppies? Or is it simply because Vette's female, and the assumptions are that a) everybody's straight, and b) females won't or can't abuse men?

[Lordgeneral]

Let's think, you hate bioware's sith empire but let's look at it.

 

The only other 3 empires is the rakata- rules the galaxy much like the sith with a same mindset amost

 

The previous sith empire although they were stopped early on which cause the sith to go into hiding before their return.

 

And ofcourse the Galactic empire during the movie era which to be quite frank, only had 2 sith in it due t the (1 master 1 apprentice) rule so they weren't as evil in a manner of speaking as this one.

 

The reason why this one is too evil for you to handle is because there is an armada of sith within it, as it is purely the sith as it's supreme rulers and we all know what they are like. They hate aliens, they lust for power and control and crush any opposition, so bioware did kind of get it right, apart from a few things in the sith storylines which i will leave out.

[Faerox]

Let's think, you hate bioware's sith empire but let's look at it.

 

The only other 3 empires is the rakata- rules the galaxy much like the sith with a same mindset amost

 

The previous sith empire although they were stopped early on which cause the sith to go into hiding before their return.

 

And ofcourse the Galactic empire during the movie era which to be quite frank, only had 2 sith in it due t the (1 master 1 apprentice) rule so they weren't as evil in a manner of speaking as this one.

 

The reason why this one is too evil for you to handle is because there is an armada of sith within it, as it is purely the sith as it's supreme rulers and we all know what they are like. They hate aliens, they lust for power and control and crush any opposition, so bioware did kind of get it right, apart from a few things in the sith storylines which i will leave out.

 

There's also the Fel Empire and Darth Krayt's Empire.

 

You could include the imperial remnant (or whatever they were called) as well, but that might be considered the Fel Empire

[Shampoo]

The thing I find most alarming about the OPs position is the apparent assertion that just because Vette is a female and a slave, that the only violence that can be directed at her is SEXUAL in nature.

 

1) Because of the idea of the "Rorschach test." It's not what's actually there, but what you perceive to be there. Perceiving that Vette's torture MUST be sexual in nature says a few telling things about an individual.

 

2) It assumes that this is the only reason males like a male Sith Warrior or the jailer at the Academy would keep Vette around, which implies that all men are rapists given the opportunity, and will gladly torture a woman into submission to have their way with her. As a man, I find this idea incredibly offensive.

 

3) It assumes that a woman can have NO OTHER VALE as a slave other than a sexual one. A female slave can't be good at keeping a house clean, or cooking, or looking after younglings, or running errands (such as crew skills), or unlocking an ancient Sith temple to allow one to claim an ancient and powerful artifact. Nope, the only thing, according to the OP's point of view, a female slave is good for is taking off her clothes and lying on her back. If I were a woman, I'd find this idea incredibly offensive. Even as a slave, I'd hope people would appreciate I had more to offer than holes.

 

Honestly, the OP is reading more into what the game portrays than what's really in there, and his/her conclusions are very disturbing. . . not because what the game is saying is disturbing, but because this person can so easily fall into that pattern of thinking. Which I sum up in an earlier post by quoting Doctor Sigmund Freud:

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

For the most part my concern is not Vette's gender, it's her attitude and treatment--I've made that perfectly clear. Also women have the legacy of being abused, marginalized and sexualized to the point of becoming objects--and for being shamed, even our justice system.

 

But just as I don't expect the world to change overnight, I wouldn't want Star Wars to become some utopia which neglects those facts either, but it seems you've ignored some very obvious talking points which needn't even be researched to discover.

 

Women are blamed worldwide for being the victim of sex crimes due to clothing and merely being out at night, etc. Just look at the strippers in the game. Let's not ignore historical and present facts on sexual objectification and crime. I must admit the topic hits me (and many others) very personally.

 

How many male Twi'leks are dancing from poles in Nar Shadda if you consider a non-problem in Star Wars? (which it seems you can't make your mind up on.

 

The surrounding issues are readily available statistics needn't be sourced here. It's an entire pillar of well documented study.

 

Google will pull up hundreds of thousands of search results on this, particularly if you bring up the revelatory studies and talking points concerning third wave feminism (which defies the notion of any wave preceding it, there's no men hating). I bring these issues up given you brought up society in general.

 

 

I wish these were points people were all well aware of, and I realize Star Wars has always been this way and just reflects reality but commenting on your post alone because it begs for criticism.

 

Sigmund Freud notably excluded women from his studies--this is the fiercest point of criticism he often receives in contemporary psychology. He's often referred to as an outright misogynist

That cigar quote, by the way, is actually satire--and is not something he actually said or wrote. here's a source with well documented academic journals.

 

You're one of those people who spam general chat with crap about family values aren't you?

 

Not at all, haha. I tend towards a very self-contained attitude in the game itself, rarely speaking to anyone but group members on strategy.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Shampoo

[celticdefender]

so you think the empire is sick basicly for doing what it says it will do. personaly i love the empire for the fact it actually shows what the empire does. and yep i love the sex slave bit slavery killing every idiot that dares to cross my path. the sith were evil they gave into their passions (sex slave's) their hatred (kill anything on a whim or for fun) and in doing this they gained strength (wiped whole worlds from existance if they didnt convert) wait what sounds remotely like religious orders of our past. but i love the ideals the sith and the empire show. cant handle the truth of how real people and real sith behave then play a jedi that wants everywhere to be hello kitty.

[Zangton]

Shampoo, even though I disagree entirely with your opinion, I do respect it. There is a problem, however, in an overly emotional bias surrounded in pseudo-intellectual text. Your post comes across as condescending and judgmental towards those who do not share your opinion.

 

There is one major flaw in this opinion, as well as many other opinions on morality in the Star Wars universe. Morals and values are not the same in works of fiction as they are in the world we live in.

 

This is a work of science fiction, not set in the world we live in, or anywhere close. In a work of fiction, there is no justification for applying your personal set of morals and values to a world (universe in this case) that is not the one we live in. That is very similar to saying lightsabers and laser guns aren't realistic, which isn't accurate simply because they are very realistic in that world. The physics and science of this world aren't necessarily limited in works of fiction or science fiction, and it is most certainly not limited in this specific work of science fiction. In this case, those things you mentioned aren't "evil" or "wrong" outright; it is just the perception of one side in this universe.

 

The reason we even see the Rebel Alliance as "good" in the original Star Wars movies is because we see the universe through the eyes of those that are on that side. Star Wars is an entirely different story if we see it through the eyes of the Empire. That, along with people seeing their morals being reflected in those characters on the "good" side. The light and dark sides (note I didn't say good and bad/evil) in this universe don't really change. Throughout the history of the Star Wars universe it is always (primarily) some kind of empire, or sith, or some other faction viewed as "bad" (in the eyes of the republic) versus the Republic.

 

The problematically 5th grade level writing in ToR touches on topics from sexual violence to torture, slavery and bigotry without even a bit of intelligent context or commentary. It reinforces why games still aren't taken seriously as art.

 

Now, with all due respect, is your post not in and of itself bigotry based on your definition of it in context?

 

Where we certainly do agree is that sexual violence, torture, slavery, and many other things you have stated problems with are generally wrong in this world (I do not like using absolutes). If you want to stop sexual violence or the slave trade in this world, I will grab my pompoms and help how I can, but the world of video games and fiction is something that should be monitored by those that allow children to play and be involved in those worlds. Parents should be careful what they allow their children to play and watch, but it is a stretch to promote censorship of games in general because you, personally, don't like parts of a fictional world.

 

 

 

Edited for clarification.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Zangton

[tehjai]

For the most part my concern is not Vette's gender, it's her attitude and treatment--I've made that perfectly clear. Also women have the legacy of being abused, marginalized and sexualized to the point of becoming objects--and for being shamed, even our justice system.

 

But just as I don't expect the world to change overnight, I wouldn't want Star Wars to become some utopia which neglects those facts either, but it seems you've ignored some very obvious talking points which needn't even be researched to discover.

 

Women are blamed worldwide for being the victim of sex crimes due to clothing and merely being out at night, etc. Just look at the strippers in the game. Let's not ignore historical and present facts on sexual objectification and crime. I must admit the topic hits me (and many others) very personally.

 

 

But that's what you're asking for. You asked for an elimination of the concepts that you found distasteful. The game has a right to portray what it wants, and it does not need to wrap the whole thing in social-justice commentary in order to "justify" that content being in there. In this world, it doesn't have to. Stuff like that is par for the course for the Empire and doubly so for the Sith.

 

To answer the question posed by the very title of this thread: Sexual violence, slavery and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

 

YES.

 

Also, I still don't understand how the game has objectively sexualized Vette's treatment. That's your subjective interpretation brought on by you making DS choices (and I've played those DS choices: the shock collar is physically abusive, yes, but it's really only sexual in your head, and that's not BioWare's fault).

 

And I reiterate, if those DS choices make you uncomfortable that doesn't mean that the writing is poor -- in fact, it means that it's done its job, since you realize that evil is evil. What about the belittlement of Quinn by a female character? Or are you one of those people who genders abuse and literally don't believe that a woman can abuse a man (or worse, that it's a 'lesser crime' in that case?).

 

But again, you can crow about explicit content that isn't explicit at all; wail about how the game's rating is wrong (protip: the teen audience is the youngest audience the game is recommended for, not its target demographic, that's how ratings work), and how you want this content eliminated because it made you uncomfortable, ostensibly for the sake of the children.

 

And for the umpteenth time: Any healthy individual playing this game realizes what's fact and what's fiction. It's not BioWare's job to ensure that a player knows that. It's insulting to be told by anyone that all gamers can't delineate.

 

You can hold your opinion, but you need to realize a) it's subjective, not factual and that b) what you're asking for -- the elimination of said content in the game -- sure as sh*t is censorship.

 

P.S.: This thread isn't about treatment of women in the real world; it's about treatment of women and slaves in the Sith Empire.

Edited February 4, 2012 by tehjai

[Zangton]

But that's what you're asking for. You asked for an elimination of the concepts that you found distasteful. The game has a right to portray what it wants, and it does not need to wrap the whole thing in social-justice commentary in order to "justify" that content being in there. In this world, it doesn't have to. Stuff like that is par for the course for the Empire and doubly so for the Sith.

 

To answer the question posed by the very title of this thread: Sexual violence, slavery and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

 

YES.

 

Also, I still don't understand how the game has objectively sexualized Vette's treatment. That's your subjective interpretation brought on by you making DS choices (and I've played those DS choices: the shock collar is physically abusive, yes, but it's really only sexual in your head, and that's not BioWare's fault).

 

And I reiterate, if those DS choices make you uncomfortable that doesn't mean that the writing is poor -- in fact, it means that it's done its job, since you realize that evil is evil. What about the belittlement of Quinn by a female character? Or are you one of those people who genders abuse and literally don't believe that a woman can abuse a man (or worse, that it's a 'lesser crime' in that case?).

 

But again, you can crow about explicit content that isn't explicit at all; wail about how the game's rating is wrong (protip: the teen audience is the youngest audience the game is recommended for, not its target demographic, that's how ratings work), and how you want this content eliminated because it made you uncomfortable, ostensibly for the sake of the children.

 

And for the umpteenth time: Any healthy individual playing this game realizes what's fact and what's fiction. It's not BioWare's job to ensure that a player knows that. It's insulting to be told by anyone that all gamers can't delineate.

 

You can hold your opinion, but you need to realize a) it's subjective, not factual and that b) what you're asking for -- the elimination of said content in the game -- sure as sh*t is censorship.

 

Oh, I like you.

 

P.S.: This thread isn't about treatment of women in the real world; it's about treatment of women and slaves in the Sith Empire.

 

Assuming this was directed in part, if not entirely, to me, I was merely pointing out flaws in the unjustified moral comparison made between this world and the Star Wars universe.

[tehjai]

Assuming this was directed in part, if not entirely, to me, I was merely pointing out flaws in the unjustified moral comparison made between this world and the Star Wars universe.

 

No no, that was directed at the OP. Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Chromeboom]

This thread is rather long so let me go ahead and say I didn't read all of it and am posting based off of the first few pages. So forgive me if these things have been stated.

 

 

The Star Wars Empire has always been of the idea that aliens and women are weaker than human males. First A New Hope onward this idea has been a huge focus on why the Empire was looked at as evil. From a story telling stand point it is important to add reasons why the bad guys are bad other than just because they are.

 

The Empire has always been about oppression. Using fear to rule over your enemies. The good thing about Bioware is they gave us the option on both sides to take part in this or refuse to do so. When I was leveling my Bounty Hunter I had plenty of options to do awful things but I refused to do so. Not because I was offended at the idea but honestly because I wanted to play as lightside.

 

I personally like the challenge in any art medium of seeing something that bothers me or I don't agree with and trying to understand both what it is and why it is being done. I am honestly very glad that Bioware took the chance to step out of the goodie goodie little kids story line that games currently are forced into most the time. Video games are, in my opinion, a form of art. Art, in many ways, is meant to challenge you as the viewer.

 

If the dark side story bothers you to a point where you can't play it then don't but please for the sake of all of us don't presume that it needs to be changed.

 

But to answer your question. In the case of the Star Wars story line...yes it really is just another day in the Empire.

[ErikModi]

Women are blamed worldwide for being the victim of sex crimes due to clothing and merely being out at night, etc. Just look at the strippers in the game. Let's not ignore historical and present facts on sexual objectification and crime. I must admit the topic hits me (and many others) very personally.

 

And you actually continue to promote said marginalization, but implying or OUTRIGHT STATING that, because Vette is both a female and slave, she MUST be a sex slave.

 

I find nothing wrong with her attitude. . . she is constantly defiant, refusing to be "broken" by her situation. The player can choose to keep shocking her and truly break her, or work with her and treat her as a valued companion. I choose the latter, but did a bit of the former in beta, and I found her response to her situation realistic and compelling. . . she's still, in the final analysis, a strong female character making the most of a bad situation. She's certainly a far cry from the blond slave girl in last night's Spartacus: Vengeance, who flat out says to another female former slave that "freedom isn't free, I'm paying my way with the only coin I have, as are you." Never ONCE does Vette bargain "favors" for preferential treatment.

 

You really are seeing things that aren't there. As for what is there. . . yeah, all the exotic dancers are female. So what? How many strip clubs with male dancers are there compared to clubs with female dancers? The former do exist, without question. Also without question, the ratio is heavily in favor of the latter. TOR could probably show another ten, twenty, maybe even thirty cantinas with female dancers before simple ratios would "require" them to include a male one.

[Foxfirega]

OP should probably stop leaning so hard on Freud. Even a shrink'll tell you that man had some issues of his own that he deflected onto others.

 

... :3c

[Vengashii]

I want to see you upset about the genocide, animal extinction, civilization destroying, and flat out psychopathy that your NPC engages in that you routinely participate in on your quest in this game.

 

Or are the millions of sentient life you wipe out with your tortured companion (if you didn't like it, why did you keep torturing her? You get an option to take it off FREQUENTLY), not worth your attention, murderer?

[tehjai]

And you actually continue to promote said marginalization, but implying or OUTRIGHT STATING that, because Vette is both a female and slave, she MUST be a sex slave.

 

Beautifully noted. Why, simply because a male is doing it to a female, must it be steeped in sexual overtones? The fact that the OP, based on their posts, cannot comprehend power dynamics between men and women without bringing sex into it is what's really marginalizing here. That, and the fact that they seem to consider themselves the authority on what is sexually appropriate for a woman in the first place. It's gross.

 

But, since the OP is high-handed and likes analysis, let's use the media itself to debunk one of their claims:

 

When we look at how actual sexual situations are treated in-game, to claim that Vette's situation is sexualized is absurd.

 

In a game with flirt options and a game that's not afraid to acknowledge the sexuality of its characters, if Vette's treatment was sexually stilted, we wouldn't need to wax on at length about "interpretations"; it'd certainly be laid right out there for us, as is usually the case when one has the option to do something sexual with a character.

 

I'll cite an example:

 

 

At the last part of the Bounty Hunter quest on Alderaan, you can appoint Raffid as the regent of House Girard. If you've flirted with him before, and if your character is a woman, you have the option of 'marrying' him (read: horizontal mambo) in what amounts to a power-grab. Raffid asks you to come back to his room and try the new whisky he's got, and then it fades to black and when you return, he's blatantly complimenting you on your sexual prowess and clearly tells you he wants to jump back in bed, given the chance.

 

 

There are several other, similar examples of how BioWare deals with sexual overtones in this game. No insinuations of the sort are ever made with Vette until after you've cultivated your relationship with her -- which the game literally will prevent you from doing if you keep her collared and enslaved.

 

So, when put alongside how BioWare deals with sex and sexuality in TOR, Vette's situation is clearly not sexualized. Also, given that Vette's story and romance option is not available until she's been freed, any claims of glorification of slavery go straight out the window.

[sparklecat]

Shampoo. Buddy. Please tell me why the female Sith Warrior's ability to have an emotionally and physically abusive relationship with Quinn is apparently not something that bothers you.

[Valin_Thren]

Waah, my evil Imperial is evil! I kept pressing evil options and evil things kept happening!

 

?

Edited February 4, 2012 by Valin_Thren

[Vulta]

Nothing bothers me in this game really and if I don't care for an option, I...you guessed it chose another one...

 

Welcome to the world of entertainment and media.I mean do you see what's on television these days american television has some pretty friggin ridiculous stuff on it. I do find it funny that you, op, state that if the writing was done better that that would make genocide, torturing and sexual abuse all right. Cause you know so long as it has good writing or humorous writing, genocide and the other mentioned topics are all perfectly fine.

 

Reality check bad guys do bad things...

[Marcato]

Sexual violence? What? You mean shocking Vette? You could just, y'know, not do it. Take the collar off of her.

[Kaskava]

For the most part my concern is not Vette's gender, it's her attitude and treatment--I've made that perfectly clear.

 

The fact that Vette is female is incredibly important to your topic.

 

Also women have the legacy of being abused,

 

And so does pretty much every culture throughout history.

 

marginalized and sexualized to the point of becoming objects--and for being shamed, even our justice system.

 

Here's a fun fact. Women are, indeed, objects. Here is a list of some other objects;

 

The paper with a side-shot of my troopers face.

The Earth.

The Sun.

My pet tarantula.

Me.

Every other man.

 

And yes, human history is full of instances of women being repressed. There are also instances of the exact opposite. Ever hear of Boudica? (I think that's how you spell it)

 

It's also a fact that sexism exists in the Star Wars Universe, even long after the end of Return of the Jedi. Does that mean BioWare is sexist for keeping in line with much of the lore? No, it does not.

 

But just as I don't expect the world to change overnight, I wouldn't want Star Wars to become some utopia which neglects those facts either, but it seems you've ignored some very obvious talking points which needn't even be researched to discover.

 

Really? Because it seems that you do.

 

Women are blamed worldwide for being the victim of sex crimes due to clothing and merely being out at night, etc.

 

And people who come to these conclusions are often considered backwards, and extremely ignorant.

 

Just look at the strippers in the game. Let's not ignore historical and present facts on sexual objectification and crime.

 

Wait, wait, wait. You have a problem with the pole dancers who are supposed to dress provacitively? Pixel pole dancers at that. Pixel pole dancers I didn't know people actually paid attention to.

 

I must admit the topic hits me (and many others) very personally.

 

Okay, we can tell.

 

How many male Twi'leks are dancing from poles in Nar Shadda if you consider a non-problem in Star Wars? (which it seems you can't make your mind up on.

 

Dunno. Never looked, I'm too busy slaughtering the Republic, and anyone else who gets in the way of the Empire.

 

The surrounding issues are readily available statistics needn't be sourced here. It's an entire pillar of well documented study.

 

Google will pull up hundreds of thousands of search results on this, particularly if you bring up the revelatory studies and talking points concerning third wave feminism (which defies the notion of any wave preceding it, there's no men hating). I bring these issues up given you brought up society in general.

 

I don't need to go to google to realize that there are real life places that still treat women worse then their cats. I just have to look at the middle east. Mayhap your time would be better spent worrying about the treatment of women there, and in other real-life places around the world, instead of in a game?

 

I wish these were points people were all well aware of, and I realize Star Wars has always been this way and just reflects reality but commenting on your post alone because it begs for criticism.

 

Most people are aware of where REAL women are experiencing REAL problems. They're also aware that this a game, in a fantasy universe. Yes, indeed, even teh womenz (as another poster put it) can make this distinction. If, for some reason, they can't, then they really need to grow up.

 

There are, as I've already said, people out in the REAL world that need all the help they can get. Have at.

 

Sigmund Freud notably excluded women from his studies--this is the fiercest point of criticism he often receives in contemporary psychology. He's often referred to as an outright misogynist

That cigar quote, by the way, is actually satire--and is not something he actually said or wrote. here's a source with well documented academic journals.

 

A man in the early, what, 20th century not giving a damn about women. Shocker, truly.

[Tocaseven]

random sand people genocide with no quest giver explaining that they burnt down a primary school full of young jawas , im a bounty hunter not a mass murderer.