Technical community discussion : Nerfing Tracer Missle

[Xinika]

TM, despite how annoying it is, is fine.

[Cegenaus]

Nothing on his skill bar but tracer missle. Here just ONE example among dozens of such posts, videos, screens. Eat crow all those that need to watch proof of how OP grav and tracer is. The damage needs to be reduced in half so that the skill can only be used as part of the rotation as intended.

 

 

where is the op? is it the part where he is 2v1 a lvl 42? or maybe the 3v1 lvl 16?

Edited February 5, 2012 by Cegenaus

[Catharian]

Commando Level 50

Valor rank 53

 

I have 2 lvl 50 toons a shadow tank and a gunnery commando. I have gotten VERY lucky on bags so I have been able to rearrange my mods to stack crit/surge on gear that did not have those mods/enhancements. I use the 2 pc columni set and 3 pc champion gear with all the offpieces being champion. My expertise is around 460; my crit is about 33% unbuffed and my surge is 81%. After I reset the mods in my gear I noticed a definite power-up of my shots. My average grav round crits for between 2-2.9k depending on the target and my highest demo/rail shot has crit for around 4.5k. If I am allowed to free cast my rotation, I do an incredible amount of damage, if i am not I die very quickly. More often than not though I am not focused upon as a priority by the opposing team, thus allowing me to do quite a bit of damage. As stated many times in this thread, merc/commando grav round spam is a requirement of the rotation, very similar in fact to a marksman hunter in WoW (I have an 85 marksman). Certain abilities MUST be spammed in order to be most effective. The arsenal merc/gunnery commando is very similar to the hunter in that once a melee gets on us we have a very hard time. I will say that it is easier to dislodge the melee with the commando given the current maps in game (i.e huttball ledges/voidstar bridge), however we still have a large weakness to interrupts/stuns affecting our rotation. If the ability is to be "nerfed" it must have a gain included somewhere, as there is simply no other ability that we have that can fill the gap currently in the skill tree. (as a side note I have never 3-shot ANYONE who was at full health - it simply won't happen)

[thewayshemoves]

Level 50 Scoundrel.

 

Valor: 40

 

Bondar Crystal

 

It doesn't bother me. I just leave you alone and look for your healer/squishier teammates, LOS you, vanish, or just die (it happens in pvp from time to time, no big deal.)

[Darth_Ricky]

haha youtube for ppl saying dont nerf tm, is like video cameras for cops.. they dont like it cos it shows whats rly up

 

"it dont do that much dmg"

 

youtube

 

"not vs gear'd ppl"

 

youtube

 

"u cant own just with tm"

 

youtube

 

"but if a few ppl focus me i die"

 

WOW RLY NM THEN, I GUESS YOUR BALENCED AFTER ALL LOL

Edited February 5, 2012 by Darth_Ricky

[deltaminus]

Walks up to Merc, interrupts tracer missile, kills Merc. What's the problem again?

 

I'm a level 50 concealment operative. Mercenaries are fine, using interrupts and line of sight isn't exactly brain surgery. As an added bonus Bioware gave me this neat move called taking cover, which can sometimes make line of sighting even easier and faster.

Edited February 5, 2012 by deltaminus

[Treplos]

Walks up to Merc, interrupts tracer missile, kills Merc. What's the problem again?

 

I'm a level 50 concealment operative. Mercenaries are fine, using interrupts and line of sight isn't exactly brain surgery. As an added bonus Bioware gave me this neat move called taking cover, which can sometimes make line of sighting even easier and faster.

 

Are you sure you are an Operative? lol

- You just walk up to an afk Merc?

- You use LOS, as in run for some cover, so you actually put distance between you and the merc?

- And Take Cover? The one where you sit in your place (Crouch) does nothing. The other (Take Cover) is buggy, and you will find yourself rolling in the wrong direction if a cover is found. It is impractical when it does work.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Treplos

[fungihoujo]

Solution seems simple to me.

 

Sorcs work much the same way- we need to spam force lightning in order for other abilities to proc (instant chain lightning/crushing) or while waiting for CD on shock/death field, or while affliction's ticking- force lightning itself is the least damaging of our abilities.

 

Lower the damage of tracer missile itself- and raise the damage of the abilities that mercs use around it, like rail shot.

[Treplos]

Solution seems simple to me.

 

Sorcs work much the same way- we need to spam force lightning in order for other abilities to proc (instant chain lightning/crushing) or while waiting for CD on shock/death field, or while affliction's ticking- force lightning itself is the least damaging of our abilities.

 

Lower the damage of tracer missile itself- and raise the damage of the abilities that mercs use around it, like rail shot.

 

Rail shot already crits for 4k+.

 

Good Mercs use TMx2 or x3, HSM, Rail Shot, Unload = dead target, or something like that, depending on how fast they wana finish it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Treplos

[Windry]

Level 50 Sorc - valor 49

Level 44 Jug - valor 35

Level 25 Oper - valor 24

Level 24 Merc - valor 18

Level 15 Sage - valor 3

 

I strongly believe that Merc's are too powerful atm, and need to be nerfed.

 

While Tracer Missile isn't where the highest damage comes from, that does not mean the spell isn't overpowered.

 

In full champion gear, my Sorc routinely dies with Tracer -> Stun -> Tracer -> Tracer -> Rail.

 

My level 24 Merc who doesn't even have implants yet does twice the damage that my level 44 Rage spec'd Jug does in warzones AND has a shorter defensive CD. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

I think the following changes should occur.

1) Tracer Missile damage should be reduced by 10%

2) Energy Shield should be a 3 minute CD (instead of 2 min).

3) The snare after a Jet Boost pushback should be reduced to 40% slow (instead of 60%)

4) The talent Light'em Up should allow power shot to add 1 stack of heat signature in addition to what it already does (yes this is a buff)

5) The talent Target Tracking needs to be on the same diminishing returns curve as Surge rating. (This is to prevent people from reaching 235-240% damage on crits when using surge adrenals. This change should be implemented for all classes).

6) The talent Tracer Lock should increase the damage of your next Rail Shot by 5% (instead of 6) and can only stack up to 4 times (instead of 5)

 

7) The talent Tracer Missile should be moved up one tier and swapped places with Terminal Velocity.

This is an important change to low level PvP, as a huge problem with Tracer missile in my mind is that merc's get it at level 20. I mean... do you know at level 20 a Warrior does not have a single stun/force choke/or even a pushback? IMO, merc's should not get Tracer Missile till at least 25.

 

8) Lastly, Tracer Missile's travel speed should be drastically increased, and the commando's Concussive Charge knock-back needs to have a longer casting animation.

 

Gravity Round hits the target instantly, Tracer Missile has travel time.

 

Commando's Concussive Charge is also the only AOE knockback that comes out instantly. The Mercenary, Sage, and Inquisitor knockbacks all have a .3-.7 second casting animation.

 

Naturally, I also agree that Project and Shock need to have the same travel time.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Windry

[Trashfactory]

I skimmed through this thread and read some things that are interesting. However, I still feel that some changes should be made to the arsenal tree (and the mirrored trooper tree). The changes should be to allow more of a variety of attacks to be used.

 

Changes that I feel should be made are:

 

#1. Power Barrier and Barrage should only proc from a successful hit with Power Shot.

#2. Terminal Velocity should include Power Shot to allow it to vent heat on crits.

 

There are other changes that I suggested before in the Merc forums. The above suggestions are the primary ones I'd like to see implemented. These two changes would require a player to choose what they want to focus on.

 

A. They can focus on getting benefitial defensive bonuses and burst damage that is affected by defensive stats (shield, armor mitigation, deflection, dodge) by using Power Shot.

 

B. They can also focus on tracer missile spam to buff up their Heatseeker/Rail Shot, but lose the extra burst from Unload and bonus mitigation from Power Barrier.

 

C. They can find a rotation of their liking to mix Power Shots and Tracer missiles to recieve both benefits at a reduced rate compared to how the current rate is with Tracer missile spam.

 

These changes may also increase overall PvE dps for mercs since Power Shot hits harder than Tracer Missile.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Trashfactory

[Alpha-Crookers]

I think the community is sorting this problem itself.

 

In my experience, everytime i hear the sound of TM, I simply change my target and LOCK down the BH lol.

 

And because pretty much 60% of the player around do the same, and the fct the Bh is the only dude not moving at all...sleep tigh pal

[Khremlin]

Server: Naddist Rebels

50 Vanguard/ rank 52

50 Guardian/ Rank 42

31 Merc/ Rank 18

 

TM/Grav Round are both totally fine.

 

A channeled attack that roots the caster w/ 1.5 sec cast time - personally, I have 4 interrupts and 2 gap closers... your mileage there may vary, but we all get 7 teammates. Or more. Play better.

 

 

SUGGESTED FIX:

 

Make ENEMY CAST BAR movable and scaleable. Play better.

 

 

If anything, GRAV ROUND might need a flashier animation/ sound effect to balance the field. (sorry commando's)

Edited February 10, 2012 by Khremlin

[zerobounds]

Server: Naddist Rebels

50 Vanguard/ rank 52

50 Guardian/ Rank 42

31 Merc/ Rank 18

 

TM/Grav Round are both totally fine.

 

A channeled attack that roots the caster w/ 1.5 sec cast time - personally, I have 4 interrupts and 2 gap closers... your mileage there may vary, but we all get 7 teammates. Or more. Play better.

 

 

SUGGESTED FIX:

 

Make ENEMY CAST BAR movable and scaleable. Play better.

 

 

If anything, GRAV ROUND might need a flashier animation/ sound effect to balance the field. (sorry commando's)

 

You missed the point entirely, read the thread, try again.

[Maruchani]

But..but...but..it's my buildup spell! QQ

 

[SwampGas]

You missed the point entirely, read the thread, try again.

 

No. Actually, he didn't. Teammates need to work together to take down a threat. This thread is null and void if everyone is trying to make 1v1 the relevant context for all of the proposed changes.

[DarthMikesta]

Server: Gardens of Talla

Bounty Hunter Level: 50

PvP rank: 61

 

I find all these complaints about tracer missile funny, as they seem to be mostly pointed at the inexperienced Mercs who simply spam tracer missile back they don't know what else to do. People don't seem to realize a few things, namely

 

a.) As many people have mentioned, the Arsenal tree is designed completely around tracer missile. It increases the damage of the 3 Hardest hitting spells the merc has, and refreshes the cooldown of the best sustained damage spell we have (in addition to increasing the damage)

b.) Any Good Merc will NEVER sit there and spam tracer. Spamming it is 1-not heat efficient, 2-not damage efficient, 3-greatly decreases your mobility on a class with very low mobility. In a fight with someone ill shoot at the VERY MOST 5-6 tracers, and thats if its a high health opponent and I want to get 5 stacks of Tracer Lock before I use rail shot. Generally I'll only need to shoot 3 of them. Depending on the enemy ill shoot 3 back o back real fast followed by a HSM then the rest of my rotation (unload, rail shot, etc.) or ill shoot 2, then unload, then a third followed by HSM and rail shot (or something to that effect). Regardless, you can get much more damage, and much greater burst by starting with explosive dart, shooting 1 or 2 tracers and then unload instead of spamming tracer missiles.

c.) Tracer missile spamming is incredibly easy to shut down by doing 1 of the following:

1. LOS the Merc

2. Interrupt/silence the Merc

3. Push Back/CC the Merc

 

I also notice people who way way WAY overestimate the damage on tracers. I commonly see people saying things like tracer does 3k crits NORMALLY. This is patently false. I have FULL champ gear with a few pieces of battle master (the chest piece, ear, and both implants) and I only ever hit 3k Tracer hits on either fresh 50's with crap gear, and 50's with relatively poor gear after I have 5 Heat sigs on them.

 

I think the problem is alot of people see the 3 tracers -> HSM -> railshot combo, and don't realize that they are getting hit with 5 spells, 2 of which ARENT a tracer missile.

 

I mean, lets call a spade a spade, is a arsenal speced Mercenary Hard to play? No? Are they easy to Counter? Yes, especially in maps like Hutball, or Civil War where there are alot of ways to LOS.

 

PS. I would be willing to bet that at least 50% of the QQ about Merc tracer spam is from scrub sages/sorcs, which I find ironic when they sit there and spam they're lighting/rocks spell

[Khremlin]

You missed the point entirely, read the thread, try again.

 

 

Turns out I did - with apologies, I'm so tired of seeing the nerf TM thread over and over again from every angle I went and made it worse with a knee jerk post.

 

And not having played a merc or commando to 50, I can't really contribute much either. At the risk of wasting your time further, this is all I got -

 

There's a reason my Merc is still low level. The damage/debuff build-up is (for me) boring and predictable and it's not like you have any choices either. Given my PVP experience with the other classes...

 

Well, I don't see the merc anywhere near as effective as the boards seem to suggest. The heat sig mechanic forces you into a place where you WILL get shut down and killed. And from a play style perspective, the only other choice looks like healing to me, which is not bad, but not the experience I've had with other classes.

 

Merc could absolutely use a redesign for flexibility in damage specs. Maybe a second way (instant and mobile) to apply heat signature matched with a small CD on Tracer would make the flow much less predictable - I'm thinking of the guardian stasis and leap/sweep combos -

 

stasis stacks damge buff, channeled (mid length CD)

exhaustion stacks buff, instant (mid length CD)

Leaps guarantee crits on sweep

Sweep does big damage.

 

Point being, there's a mix of mobile and rooted set up to max your damage and build up the resource to do the damage - creating flexibility for the player and the target alike.

 

But i wonder if that's what they intended the 2 knock backs to accomplish?

 

Any way, free bump if nothing else. Nice to see a constructive post on here.

[Turn-XGundam]

Level 50 Sorc - valor 49

Level 44 Jug - valor 35

Level 25 Oper - valor 24

Level 24 Merc - valor 18

Level 15 Sage - valor 3

 

I strongly believe that Merc's are too powerful atm, and need to be nerfed.

 

While Tracer Missile isn't where the highest damage comes from, that does not mean the spell isn't overpowered.

 

In full champion gear, my Sorc routinely dies with Tracer -> Stun -> Tracer -> Tracer -> Rail.

 

My level 24 Merc who doesn't even have implants yet does twice the damage that my level 44 Rage spec'd Jug does in warzones AND has a shorter defensive CD. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

I think the following changes should occur.

1) Tracer Missile damage should be reduced by 10%- i agree with this one. as merc i am okay with this.

2) Energy Shield should be a 3 minute CD (instead of 2 min). lol no just no, 3min why so i can die evern faster??

3) The snare after a Jet Boost pushback should be reduced to 40% slow (instead of 60%) its one of our are 2 abilties to push back melees who get in our faces- so no

4) The talent Light'em Up should allow power shot to add 1 stack of heat signature in addition to what it already does (yes this is a buff) don't really need this

5) The talent Target Tracking needs to be on the same diminishing returns curve as Surge rating. (This is to prevent people from reaching 235-240% damage on crits when using surge adrenals. This change should be implemented for all classes). i agree with this

6) The talent Tracer Lock should increase the damage of your next Rail Shot by 5% (instead of 6) and can only stack up to 4 times (instead of 5) again noo just no.

 

7) The talent Tracer Missile should be moved up one tier and swapped places with Terminal Velocity.

This is an important change to low level PvP, as a huge problem with Tracer missile in my mind is that merc's get it at level 20. I mean... do you know at level 20 a Warrior does not have a single stun/force choke/or even a pushback? IMO, merc's should not get Tracer Missile till at least 25. ok this i can agree on, tracer missile is a tooo powerful of a ability to be given at lv20

 

8) Lastly, Tracer Missile's travel speed should be drastically increased, and the commando's Concussive Charge knock-back needs to have a longer casting animation.

 

Gravity Round hits the target instantly, Tracer Missile has travel time.

 

Commando's Concussive Charge is also the only AOE knockback that comes out instantly. The Mercenary, Sage, and Inquisitor knockbacks all have a .3-.7 second casting animation.

 

Naturally, I also agree that Project and Shock need to have the same travel time.

fixed

[Tzou]

this story somehow reminds me some other classes in other games.

 

in any case MERCs needs to be redone from zero.

 

 

thers no way they will fix this mess while they press 8-9 buttons max during a fight while all others uses the double.

 

all other suggestions and theories are welcomed ofc but dont give nothing as solution.

 

this will go on and on and on until one day BIO desided to redo this class...like all games did at their stupid iwin button classes.

 

and yes its hard for them atm cause most ppl plays this toons....

 

u can all imagine the nerdrage after they nerf them...

[HileyQuiggley]

Give me 15 second stun locks, stealth during combat and interupts then we can talk nerfing Grav Round. Right now you have to use it for other abilities, plain and simple. Talk about spamming one ability why not ask Sorcs and lightning spamming that crap?

[lexiekaboom]

Clearly a sorc trying to move discussion away from the only nerf that needs to happen.

 

Tracer missle and grav round and only a problem because of how easy they are to use. They are not really that deadly seeing you can LOS them, and the long cast makes it simple to interrupt. Plus it's a important part of the cycle of that line to the point where if you are on someone and they can't use TM/GR they can't chain their higher tier effects.

 

If you die to GR/TM 9 out of 10 times it's because you stood there letting them chain you while fighting someone else.

 

I have grav round trooper (as well as many other PVP toons) and although I can own some warzones that are filled with newer players just spamming that button, I'm no threat at all to a experienced PVPer.

 

3 months from now it won't even be viable.

[ujiomizuko]

I started to reply in the other thread but the post got pretty long and with so many trash, whining and junk filler posts polluting the thread I thought it would be best to make a new one with more stringent rules.

 

Do not fill this thread with trash, /signed posts or general whining about TM spam. If you post in here it needs to be relevant and a constructive contribution to the discussion.

 

I will keep this post updated with information as much as I can and try to highlight the major points.

 

In your post include this information so we have an idea of how informed you about the gameplay aspects:

 

Server:

Bounty Hunter Level: (Put your class name here if you are not a BH and still feel you have something constructive to add)

PvP Level:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Main points I'm starting this thread with - feel free to suggest others:

 

What are non-Merc players saying about Tracer Missile?

Claim: TM is spammed in PvP matches. (remains fairly valid)

Claim: TM is all that the Merc needs to be effective while other classes need many skills to merely survive. (baseless - see quoted posts)

Claim: TM is overpowered (baseless - see quoted posts)

 

What are Merc players saying about Tracer Missile?

Unavoidable use - The Arsenal skill tree is built around Tracer Missile

 

Frequency of use - Unload has a chance to be instantly cooled down, Rail shot is available to targets with Heat Sig's, HSM recieves damage bonus per each Heat Sig on target. Using TM incessantly has rewards and is needed to be stacked on each target you attack for good results. Thus 'spamming'.

 

Channeling animation -

--Con: Many players don't the bending over - mostly an 'issue' due to how often you have to use the skill and watch it.

--Pro: It does make it obvious that the target is being tagged with Heat Sig's in PvP, so the smoke is good.

 

 

What are the primary paths to adjust the class that will address these concerns, maintain fun-factor and maintain class balance?

Path 1 - Reviewing the Arsenal tree as a whole and making the skills less contingent on the repeated use of TM and application of Heat Sig's.

Path 2 - Use a different skill to apply Heat Sig.

Path 3 - Leave it alone - see posts primarily from Theballzz, feeling that the difficulty of play when under pressure and requiring mobility is acceptable and fun.

 

General concerns

The concern is not that the class is overpowered or that Tracer Missile is the one button wonder to kill-all but more along the lines of gameplay quality and appeal in both PvP and PvE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/sined, i H8 traser missul omg!

[Dizzident]

To all the TM complainer I would like to say: take a look at the *********** Arsenal tree and TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE ABILITIES, nerfing TM is the same as saying Jedis are OP cuz THEY HAS GLOWSTICKS.

 

As soon as a Sentinel gets close to me and he knows how to play his class, I'm as dead as a doorknob. Seems logical to me.

 

Stop crying and play the game.

 

Bioware needs to rework the Arsenal tree at some point in the future.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Dizzident

[Darth_Ricky]

I also notice people who way way WAY overestimate the damage on tracers.

 

youtube says u lie