Gear based PvP is amateur hour

[ErisktheRed]

GW 2 is a MMO and their approach is:

 

...SW:TOR approach is: Let 50s farm 10s for a month, give them their own bracket now since they have farmed their BM gear and now let them farm fresh 50s getting geared. World pvp, lets let the higher population camp the lower population until they have farmed their BM gear in one day.

 

Wow truer words... and then add the Illum exploit that got many BM gear in a day... rofl for WZ I suggest pre 50 PvP so much more fun, more skill based. SWTOR endgame just reverted to every other MMO (not including the rare gems like DAoC and GW) certainly, it's nice to work towards something... but so heavily set on... well sets... just I mean, ironic it's named expertise it's not real expertise at all in PvP 50... one set to rule them all... also boring... and deeply unfun to work towards when fresh, and fun times when everyone looks the same eventually wearing the one and only gear...

 

The imbalance it creates just seems so obvious, they bracket 50s which was good, but, imbalanced that bracket with the expertise sets and the fresh 50s have zero... I suppose it also depends on server type but just seems lazy to me by Devs, by the time things change or IF and I hope they do, wonder if there will be a pop left.

Edited February 1, 2012 by ErisktheRed

[Torleen]

So in a MMORPG PVP, the player pays to gain an advantage? In the EA several people began hitting lv 50 so they could start farming their BM gear off lowbies, yes alot of players were spending 15+hrs a day leveling to gain an advantage. So since they were able to play for that much time per day, they should be allowed to farm lowbies because they pay $15 a month? Or thanks to the population imbalance able to exploit Ilum and gain BM in 1 day? Now since they have attained BM gear they can simply faceroll new 50s, no skill is involved with that. You see BM geared people 2-3 shotting non BM geared players. Those doing the 2 shots on people are thinking "man im so good" while those getting 2 shotted are thinking "wth, i get 3 shotted and i can only crit that guy for 1k".

 

So basically you are saying the playerbase is spending their $15 a month to grind to get an advantage over others because they would rather have an advantage over a fair game

 

Well said.

[belialle]

Thats nonsense. Back in vanilla WoW, before honor, before Alterac Valley, before Warsong Gultch there was Tarren Mill.

 

We PVP'd there all day. Entire guilds clashing and playing tug of war in the open fields. Small groups flanking from the east and west. PVP in its purest form completely destroyed by the developers themselves.

 

Ah, now those were the days. It was absolutely some of the most fun I've had in any MMO, ever.

 

I hate the PvP gear grind. I hate winning easily because I have more time to farm for better gear. I just want to PvP against equal opponents. That's just my own personal preference, and I understand that the companies that run MMOs need a "hook" to keep people playing and that this "hook" is usually some form of gear progression that encourages people to engage in what some might consider mentally unhealthy "OCD-collector" type behaviors. I don't like it, but I understand why it's there.

Edited February 1, 2012 by belialle

[Bhorzo]

My 2 cents:

 

Skill-based PVP and MMORPG don't mix. (Unless it's GW2, or something similar... but they're the exceptions, not the rule.)

[Erasimus]

I disagree with the idea of removing PvP specific gear progression or making PvP gear equivalent to PvE gear or vice versa.

 

I do PvP a lot and and at some point will start doing regular PvE OPs in SWTOR. I did both for almost 7 years in WoW (all my WoW time was in raiding guilds that also did some structured PvP). Now I don't put an enormous amount of time in to the game, at least not compared to some people. Heck, my highest character is only 47.

 

I enjoy both improving my characters by increasing my understanding of the character (ability rotations, talents, etc.) and by improving my gear. Both are things that attracted me to MMOs in the first place. They help give me goals and I derive pleasure from both. Without gear progression I'd still probably PvP, but it wouldn't be as much fun for me so I know I'd PvP a lot less. This gradual improvement of my character, versus just my skill at playing him/her is what keeps me engaged and playing. Otherwise I'd probably just play a game for a few months then move on to a different game.

 

Does that make me a bad? Perhaps, if it is bad to enjoy a game in a different way from the OP is someones option of a "bad" PvP'er.

 

I do play FPS games from time to time, but they don't hold my attention for more than short periods of time compared to MMOs. Not to mention that as I get a bit older some of the motion in FPS games make me a bit nauseous after a while

 

I did some Arena in WoW, unlike my son who focused on Arena. Perhaps the coming rated WZs will fill the same function for the "hard core" PvP'ers.

 

I don't know what the majority of people that PvP in an MMO enjoy, but the admittedly anecdotal evidence of the people I've known in MMOs, puts them much closer to my preferences than those of the OP.

[Starbuckx]

I don't know what proportion of players but I'd think a large portion of players play to get gear, thats what gives them a hard on.

 

If anyone knows of a game without gear I would certainly play it, probably with a very small community but be happy.

 

If you have nothing to grind for, so decide not to play, then the game can't have been very good in the first place.

 

Like this game...there is a lack of content at the end game so once you hit the top level there is nothing much to keep players interested.

 

Bring on new content fast or bring on a new game.

 

The worst part, is that with more content and less bugs this could actually be a really fun game. Its a shame the first couple of months have been so painful.

[RycheMykola]

Originally Posted by Brutem

So in a MMORPG PVP, the player pays to gain an advantage? In the EA several people began hitting lv 50 so they could start farming their BM gear off lowbies, yes alot of players were spending 15+hrs a day leveling to gain an advantage. So since they were able to play for that much time per day, they should be allowed to farm lowbies because they pay $15 a month? Or thanks to the population imbalance able to exploit Ilum and gain BM in 1 day? Now since they have attained BM gear they can simply faceroll new 50s, no skill is involved with that. You see BM geared people 2-3 shotting non BM geared players. Those doing the 2 shots on people are thinking "man im so good" while those getting 2 shotted are thinking "wth, i get 3 shotted and i can only crit that guy for 1k".

 

So basically you are saying the playerbase is spending their $15 a month to grind to get an advantage over others because they would rather have an advantage over a fair game

The difference between full Champion and Full BM gear isn't "too" great.

 

The big imbalance comes from people fighting people in full BM gear when they have 0 expertise.

 

Beginner crafted gear would REALLY help out fresh 50's.

[Holskabard]

@OP: What made you think SW:TOR would be a viable PvP game in the first place?

No themepark MMO(RP)G to date ever really reached that status or if they briefly did they made sure they'd break it again themselves within 1 of the next few patches.

Closest to what you're describing was GW1 but then again that wasn't really an MMO(RP)G in the first place.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Holskabard
too many typos ftl

[IThrowRocks]

You forgot one very important thing though, a conceptual one.

For a real PvPer, getting better and better, knowing his class and the enemy better, to fight em better and win, THATS the proggression.

A proggression in skill; i think your post is right on, BUT you have to consider that "proggression" is subjective.For me , and most succsessful PvPers, i´ve "progressed", TONS in the past PvP years, grind is grind; proggression is improvement. Not collecting things and qqing cause player x always kills you instead of gear disavdantage and lvl difference.At least for a PvPer, thats ALL THE PROGGRESSION YOU NEED.

But i agree, we are minority, and it is good so.

 

 

 

I agree with you here actually. I did overlook this because I didn’t really think about it. Best example I can think of is one of the scoundrels in my playgroup. He’s full champ geared and now working on BM (oh joy) And learning how to not get shut down by him has been a fun road.

 

Problem is that people want something material in return for their efforts. Especially in this era of technology that has created the desire for instant gratification. You tell a gaming community to PvP purely for the gameplay and skill progression and most of them are going to respond with something along the lines of “No thanks, I want epic loot right meow”.

 

People who want these even level playing fields, value progression in this sense and want to develop skill and in turn make their gaming experience into an esport type of environment just simply need to look elsewhere. You are a minority but there are vendors who can and will cater to you.

 

 

This is slightly off topic but my senior has been failing to give me work today so I’ll continue to type.

 

The idea of aesthetic gear has come up a lot. I personally feel that this could be implemented with success but I think warzones are the wrong place to put them. I personally would like to see this type of gear implemented along with an arena system. Now arenas are a very controversial topic but I feel that the main problem in WoW’s implementation (I left WoW right before Wotlk came out so these ideas are coming from what I saw in the BC era) is that they made arena gear too superior to battleground gear. Battlegrounds became the slums of pvp because there was no incentive for a seasoned PvPer to do them other then show off their flashy stats (from arena gear).

 

Say what you will I think there are a lot of people who enjoy arena/deathmatch PvP. I also think that it fits well into this game archetype. I don’t think that it should necessarily become the primary form of PvP or kill the warzones. Arenas are a more elite form of PvP. They are focused more on skill rather than the “grind” that a warzone atmosphere promotes. Because of this I feel arenas could be successfully implemented with a reward system that is directed more towards prestige. Titles, ranks, and yes sexy skins for your already owned PvP gear.

 

 

 

 

 

Let me know when your so called "e-sports" get a TV contract, make it to the Olympics or X-Games Princess. Just cause a few people want to call them "sports", won't make it so. I know, can we make Microsoft Hearts an "e-sport"? There's zero difference between that and your "e-sport" games.

 

The gaming world is evolving and I’m not going to say that it is going to get to the Olympics but video games are rising in popularity. The definition of what a “sport” is is extremely subjective. But all sports and activities have one thing in common; they are all in the entertainment industry. Similarities of this industry include a few facts: 1) People want to watch them 2) There is money involved due to the demand to watch these events.

 

Many esports hold tournaments for large pools of money. This money doesn’t just appear. People pay to become members of online streaming sites that provide footage and shoutcast commentary on games. Also even if footage is free, if the game is being watched by people, there is always money in advertising when there are eyes to see it.

 

So while you might not consider it a “sport” because of your subjective opinion, there is a distinct difference between games and “esports”. To find the difference follow the path paved in green.

[obi-joachim]

Do you really thing anyone will enjoy mindless PvP with no reward system what so ever going towards giving you bonuses in PvP?

[Bhorzo]

Do you really thing anyone will enjoy mindless PvP with no reward system what so ever going towards giving you bonuses in PvP?

 

People play TF2.

[Asnine]

Let me know when your so called "e-sports" get a TV contract, make it to the Olympics or X-Games Princess. Just cause a few people want to call them "sports", won't make it so. I know, can we make Microsoft Hearts an "e-sport"? There's zero difference between that and your "e-sport" games.

 

SC2 in Korea would like a word with you

[VoidJustice]

Thats nonsense. Back in vanilla WoW, before honor, before Alterac Valley, before Warsong Gultch there was Tarren Mill.

 

We PVP'd there all day. Entire guilds clashing and playing tug of war in the open fields. Small groups flanking from the east and west. PVP in its purest form completely destroyed by the developers themselves.

 

twas epic fun.

I have the T-shirt and the screenshots...

 

sigh...

 

Planetside 2 coming! of course SOE is evil and will ruin it but... hey!

 

 

p.s.

 

The reason there's bonus's in Pvp to "entice" players is because the devs are too silly to make the damn PVP FUN. If the PVP WAS FUN we wouldn't need any PRIZES...

 

people do lots of things without getting PRIZES.. they call those things PLAY when you need to get PAID to do something... they call that WORK.

 

rough concept... I know... focus thou... you'll get it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Metalmac]

Do you really thing anyone will enjoy mindless PvP with no reward system what so ever going towards giving you bonuses in PvP?

 

What real reward do you get for any game?

 

You play to play to play for something to do.

 

You make it sound like some how you knew before the game was designed you needed this reward in order to buy and play the game. That is bull crap.

 

I play PVE or PVP to have fun, when out geared by others PVP is no fun at all and never is.

 

We would have a much better game over all if PVP gear did not exist as only skill would win in a PVP match then.

 

Ah but then PVP players would really cry as skill they think they have does not exist after all.

[fungihoujo]

 

So in a MMORPG PVP, the player pays to gain an advantage? In the EA several people began hitting lv 50 so they could start farming their BM gear off lowbies, yes alot of players were spending 15+hrs a day leveling to gain an advantage. So since they were able to play for that much time per day, they should be allowed to farm lowbies because they pay $15 a month? Or thanks to the population imbalance able to exploit Ilum and gain BM in 1 day? Now since they have attained BM gear they can simply faceroll new 50s, no skill is involved with that. You see BM geared people 2-3 shotting non BM geared players. Those doing the 2 shots on people are thinking "man im so good" while those getting 2 shotted are thinking "wth, i get 3 shotted and i can only crit that guy for 1k".

 

So basically you are saying the playerbase is spending their $15 a month to grind to get an advantage over others because they would rather have an advantage over a fair game

 

Doesn't sound like anyone paid for an advantage- this isn't D3 which has item shops. You've mentioned only exploiting and spending too much time- neither of which have to do with money at all.

 

Everyone is paying that 15 bucks, not just the geared people. And they're not paying just for an advantage in pvp- most people play and pay for an mmo because they have a great deal more.

 

League has 3 maps- 1 of which is good- there's nothing outside of those matches. GW was a single player game with arena matches and an auction area for dyes. SC is also, nothing but matches.

 

These games aren't in the same area of gaming. If TOR was just a hub with WZ, then I wouldn't be paying for it- much like I wouldn't pay monthly for League, GW or SC. When you make a game and expect people to pay, you'll need progression- how many subbed games can you name without progression that are doing well right now? People will not pay a monthly fee for games without progression. It's why GW2 decided to have no monthly fee- no progression or content, focus instead on item shops and having a handful of pvp maps.

 

 

As for exploits... if you think SC and League are exploit free.. well, frankly, I won't even go there.

Edited February 1, 2012 by fungihoujo

[belialle]

Doesn't sound like anyone paid for an advantage- this isn't D3 which has item shops. You've mentioned only exploiting and spending too much time- neither of which have to do with money at all.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but....

 

Time is money, friend. Time costs something. It is extremely valuable....for most of us, at least.

[Calei]

Do you really thing anyone will enjoy mindless PvP with no reward system what so ever going towards giving you bonuses in PvP?

 

I've been playing Quake, Quake 2 CTF, Quake 3 CTF and Counter Strike from 1996 on a 28.8k dial-up modem all the way through 2004 on a 10mb cable modem. Then World of Warcraft was launched and everything changed.

 

Guild Wars 2 will launch and everything will change... again...

[Bhorzo]

We would have a much better game over all if PVP gear did not exist as only skill would win in a PVP match then.

 

Ah but then PVP players would really cry as skill they think they have does not exist after all.

 

 

I'm not an elitist... but I strongly feel that PVP in MMORPGs are for people with no reflexes and no skills.

 

MMORPGs are designed around the fact that they let you replace lack of skill with time-invested.

 

Any amount of suckage can be replaced with X amount of hours grinding for gear that makes up for it. These people are attracted to PVP in MMORPGs.

 

 

 

Personally I'd love PVP with equalized levels and equalized gear, and skills balanced around PVP. Most MMORPG players would run and hide, however.

 

(This can be partially fixed with a rated match-making system... but people with 1800 rating and lower would find excuses to quit. Personally I doubt MMORPG players play video games for fun at all anymore.)

 

/rant

[Bhorzo]

I've been playing Quake, Quake 2 CTF, Quake 3 CTF and Counter Strike from 1996 on a 28.8k dial-up modem all the way through 2004 on a 10mb cable modem. Then World of Warcraft was launched and everything changed.

 

Guild Wars 2 will launch and everything will change... again...

 

I hope GW2 comes through. It has so much potential. But then so did SWTOR. At least my friends have actually played GW2 PVP a few months ago... so that is giving me a glimmer of hope....

[dannythefool]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but....

 

Time is money, friend. Time costs something. It is extremely valuable....for most of us, at least.

 

Yes, time has value. In the context of a game, you would want to maximize the amount of fun you get for a certain, usually capped amount of time you can spend on it. If you have to spend either money or time on just getting into a position where the game is fun, you're probably not maximizing your ROI properly and should instead be playing a game that is fun at all times.

[fungihoujo]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but....

 

Time is money, friend. Time costs something. It is extremely valuable....for most of us, at least.

 

Give people free 50s and full gear and they'll simply complain there's nothing to do. Progression is a staple of an mmo- where you'll spend literally dozens if not hundreds days /played for some people. The mmorpg player, in general not all of them but the majority- is here to get more stuff and progress- that's why they pay.

 

Whether good or bad it doesn't matter, this is a genre which revolves around epeen inflation.

 

Technically- it takes time to study up on SC or League exploits, OP champs, OP builds, how to use them- getting the runes, practising, etc... I think you'd be surprised at how much time those SC celebrities in Korea actually spend playing the game to get as good at is as they are.

 

Not to say a gear system is 'good', just that for a progression game- which is pretty much all mmorpgs of note- it's the only thing that's worked.

[IThrowRocks]

It is rather scary how hopeless this thread is. People are too narrow minded to use reason.

[Asnine]

I just wonder if you guys who're defending SWToR's PvP (and I guess WoW, etc)....you basically think that gear should be the end all determinant in who wins a fight, basically, correct?

 

I personally think that gear plays too large a role (NOTE: I am not saying gear *shouldn't* give an advantage, just that the advantage is too large).

[Turando]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years. This is not it.

PvP'ers (unless you live with Mom) have been looking for this for years. SWTOR is not it.

 

I partially agree, SWTOR is not it. But it is a stupid business decision to ignore amateurs and just cater to the ultra skilled PvPers.

[Brutem]

most people play and pay for an mmo because they have a great deal more.

 

 

 

 

However you hinted no one would P2P a game with pvp, that does not have gear progression in pvp. But yet stated people P2P for a MMO because they have a great deal more (assuming you mean PvE content). So with your statement, couldnt the same be said if a MMO had a fair playing field for pvp being the pvp was skill based, not gear based people would still pay the $15 because if the pve content?

 

So the players who spent 15+ hrs a day hitting lv 50 and farming lowbies, should have an advantage in gear over others whom work/school because they pay $15 a month?

 

 

People would still pay P2P games AND do pvp even if the game had a skill based pvp system. It would probably encourage more players to take part in pvp actually, with gear no longer being a factor. New players and new 50s would be far more likely to do pvp, knowing they simply would not be face rolled and player skill would be a factor.

 

As it stands now, a new player queues up, gets facerolled, not a good first impression for a new lv50 to be 2-3 shotted. How many of those do you think queue back up and say "man this is fun being blown apart in seconds when i cant even do much damage to them".