Assault Plastique - essential for assault pvp?

[shucksy]

i could be wrong, but i remember AP hitting for more then my ion pulse

 

edit: sorry this is based on pve experiance, i could see the argument for not using it, mainly because you want damage now, not in 5 seconds.

 

Refreshes DOT, procs Ionic Accelerator.

[kajind]

Refreshes DOT, procs Ionic Accelerator.

 

the procs ionic accelerator is valid, but if you are in your rotation, and swap out one ion surge for an AP then the dot refresh doesn't matter, because if the dot went away in 1 gcd, it wouldn't really be a dot.

 

now the question that you have to ask for ionic accelerator is how does it look in the long run. now if we just take 1 sample then if it procs IA then it was worth it not using AP, but if we look at the overall numbers it looks like this

 

Damage from AP

this is the damage over 2 global cd's

[AP damage + Ion pulse]

 

Damage for using Ion Pulse instead

[ion Pulse + 40%High Impact Bolt]

 

so figure out which of those gives you more dps. if you want to add ionic accelerator into the equation then to maintain an equal time frame for dps you have to also take into consideration that to get the damage from ionic accelerator you have to do another skill, so you would be able to do something in that time frame if you used AP.

 

Now if we look at these we can do some canceling.

 

[AP damage + Ion pulse] | [ion Pulse + 40%High Impact Bolt]

the ion pulse's go away

[AP damage ] | [ 40%High Impact Bolt]

 

TL:DR so which does more damage, Assault Plastique or 40% of your HIB, im putting money on AP but i have not actually paid attention to the numbers.

[shucksy]

It's not just a question of damage, but ammo management.

[TheRabbit]

It's not just a question of damage, but ammo management.

 

With my gear on, AP average damage is: 2045.5, Ion Pulse average damage is: 1264.8, and HIB is: 1534.1.

 

AP is kinetic damage and Ion Pulse is elemental damage (meaning AP is affected by armor, Ion Pulse is not), both count as tech attacks and thus cannot miss (but can be resisted). HIB is a ranged weapon damage attack, so is affected by armor, can be shielded, and can be parried/dodged.

 

(all of the above are prior to applying any skill bonuses)

 

I use AP in my rotation because of the spike damage, and the huge surge bonus it gets from skills. It is regularly my hardest hitting attack in my combo, especially against non tanks (I've had 5k crits against Sorcerers).

[grandmasterub]

The advantage to AP is that since its damage is delayed you can have its damage plus another ability HiB etc... Hit at the same time. IE burst

 

As mentioned before burst isn't necessarily greater dps. Its "greater damage in ONE second".

[happyhappyjoy]

*shrug*

 

To each his own, no point in arguing.

 

The trend is tanking right now, with DPS being all but ridiculed.

 

I switched from shield spec -> hybrid -> full DPS and will never go back.

 

It's hard to express how much damage and burts you are giving up by picking up SS, HTL, etc. for the perception that you're more survivable. The more I play, the more I'm begining to see PvP-Tanking as a trap.

 

The most effective way to shut down a healer, protect your own healer or hold a control point is to kill the other player.

 

EDIT: Case in point...taking 2 seconds off Riot Strike. The reason you need to interrupt more is because you're not killing fast enough. You HAVE to interrupt every single heal or tracer missile, because you damage is so low, you don't stand a chance if you can't.

 

This guy is totally right. You can go 31 points assault and lose like 4% flat mitigation and the tiniest bit of utility in exchange you become possibly the best burster in the game. My Assault Plastique crits on Sorc's for 4,000-4,500.

 

Sure Smug's and Op's burst better and have stealth but they look squishy, have no utility and they get focused. You look like a tank and with heavy armor you actually are fairly durable.

 

When you come up on center at the beginning of Alderaan, pop battle focus and relic, tab target, IR, AP, HIB, IP/SS, HIB (AP Goes off), IP - the target is dead about half the time. How long did that take? 9 Seconds. When did the target realize they were taking serious damage - 4.5 seconds in. When did the healers realize the target was taking serious damage - maybe 6 seconds in.

 

By the time the team realizes that you aren't a tank just plinking away at them with 2,000-2,500 crits the guy you tab targeted has less than 3,000 health.

 

Also, killing other players, as opposed to surviving and fighting them for a long time is so much more important to node capture in alderaan and attacking in voidstar.

 

I admit I really miss being 23/0/18, or even heavy tactics when I'm in hutball.

 

Hayduke Smith

INFANTRY

Adjunta Pall

[kajind]

Refreshes DOT, procs Ionic Accelerator.

 

i mean the same thing applies. with AP + IP thats 4 ammo over 3 seconds

 

with IP + 40%HIB thats 2.4 ammo over 3 seconds, neither are running a huge deficit.

[ironzerg]

Burst and DPS are two different things. Using AP when you're under 10m lowers your dps.

 

DPS and effective DPS are two different things.

 

It's very possible to have a "high DPS" build that's highly ineffective in PvP.

 

But like I said, the longer it takes people to figure out how crushing a 31-point Assault build can be in PvP, the better.

[Fafryd]

When you come up on center at the beginning of Alderaan, pop battle focus and relic, tab target, IR, AP, HIB, IP/SS, HIB (AP Goes off), IP - the target is dead about half the time. How long did that take? 9 Seconds. When did the target realize they were taking serious damage - 4.5 seconds in. When did the healers realize the target was taking serious damage - maybe 6 seconds in.

 

And the same thing happens if you substitute SG for AP, less a bit of damage on 1 ability...

 

AP lovers treat the debate like 'is more burst good' or 'does AP do more than SG'. That's not the question. The question 'is having AP better than 6-7 points elsewhere'? The answer to that is debateable.

 

I previously had AP. I found it didn't change my overall damage production by a decisive amount. Yes, it was more.

 

I then changed to get more in Tactics with Gut and HTL.

 

For example:

- when faced by a Sith Inq with its snare, I can pop HTL and gap close for interrupts, stock strike and kill them quickly, rather than needing to fight them from >10m and no interrupt;

- I can interrupt tracer missile and unload spam easily;

- when I collect the ball in Huttball from centre, I can pop HTL and make it over both fire pits for a solo score;

- I can LOS easily in a 2v1 or reposition groups between harpoon and HTL to clear a path

etc

 

So the point is about compromise and whether it works better for you, or not.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Fafryd

[ururururu]

AP is significantly important in your main burst rotation.

 

Test the two specs yourself in a duel. Also, crit values vs not.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Hello?! 30% extra crit damage on assault plastique.

 

I guess you missed my earlier post. The people saying sticky hits as hard as assault plastique are idiots that didn't check crit values.

 

Why do you think other people say "my assault plastique CRITS .... <big number>"?

 

Also - riot strike is not your only interrupt. Interleave with storm which costs 0 ammo and hits for a lot and interrupts and roots.

Also#2 - those of you that think guard doesn't matter to keep your companion up are idiots.

 

/thread

Edited February 1, 2012 by ururururu

[ironzerg]

If you go up the Tactics tree for HTL, you give up a lot more damage than just AP.

 

Again, back to one of the first points I made...you need all those extra tools/interrupts to compete because you can't compete on firepower.

 

31 Assault is bringing one thing to the table, and that's brute force, which in most cases is more than enough for most PvP situations.

[grandmasterub]

tbh the question for this thread should have been "AP essential for offensive pvp?"

 

If your goal is to rack up kills, and cap turrets/doors then APs burst potential is very important.

 

If however you prefer to defend caps, keep healers/dps alive, and score regularly in huttball then the survivability/utility from a shield or tactics spec is more important.

 

I roll tactics and no I dont cap often and yes sorc healers are my bane BUT I can hold a door/turret by myself against 3/4 of the enemy team for the crucial amount of time for my team to cap or respond. And I'm practically a huttball god.

 

APs usefulness is really a question of playstyle.

[happyhappyjoy]

I guess what I'm saying is that you either go 18 in assault and run around with HTL or Storm or you go 31 points in Assault. I tried the 25 assault builds where you can pick up Gut or spread out the points and get Steely resolve and Blaster Augs and Frontline Offense. I missed AP.

 

I think the real decision is whether you spend your 10 points on BlasterAugs and Frontline Offense or just go with Steely Resolve. I'm rolling with Steely resolve - sure I have 3 percent less crit but I have about 4 percent more damage and some additional crit from the 9 percent increase in Aim.

 

Hayduke

INFANTRY

ADJUNTA PALL

[aRtFuL]

And the same thing happens if you substitute SG for AP, less a bit of damage on 1 ability...

 

AP lovers treat the debate like 'is more burst good' or 'does AP do more than SG'. That's not the question. The question 'is having AP better than 6-7 points elsewhere'? The answer to that is debateable.

 

I previously had AP. I found it didn't change my overall damage production by a decisive amount. Yes, it was more.

 

I think you are missing a few points of going AP right there. Yes going down tactics tree CAN give you potentially higher overall damage, BUT the problem is you are less mobile in using it (even though u have HTL, but that's mobility, not mobility of attack, which is different).

 

AP can be fired at 30m range, AP is also fire-and-forget.

 

Going down Tactics grants you pulse generator. Ion pulse stacking and pulse cannon (and stock refresh and HiB crit) CAN get you more damage over time but all that has to be done within 10m range aside from HiB. Also, unleashing pulse generator requires you to be standing still.

 

You can't dodge and weave with deep tactics and maintain a high burst capability.

 

That's why AP, imo, is more suitable if you are going for more aggressive style of pvp.

 

tbh the question for this thread should have been "AP essential for offensive pvp?"

 

If your goal is to rack up kills, and cap turrets/doors then APs burst potential is very important.

 

If however you prefer to defend caps, keep healers/dps alive, and score regularly in huttball then the survivability/utility from a shield or tactics spec is more important.

 

I roll tactics and no I dont cap often and yes sorc healers are my bane BUT I can hold a door/turret by myself against 3/4 of the enemy team for the crucial amount of time for my team to cap or respond. And I'm practically a huttball god.

 

APs usefulness is really a question of playstyle.

 

AP doesn't necessary makes less suitable for playing defensive. I can defend just as well and keep healer alive juse as well because I can change target quick and take down opps who are threatening to the healer (or at least hurt them enough so they have to change to self-preservation ahead of killing their intended target). What tactics to employ is a personal thing.

 

AP does however make you less able to passively protect your healers.

 

So it is just a question of playstyle, as you said, at the end of the day. Either path is viable.

 

In fact, the only sad 31 point talent is Fire Pulse. It does no more damage than Ion Pulse when I tried it, and it has a very crap animation. I don't know why it exists

 

They should really make Fire Pulse into something that has a point, like 50% healing debuff or something.

Edited February 2, 2012 by aRtFuL

[Dead_Ted]

the thing I like most about AP is that it gives the Vanguard one more powerful 30m attack, which can be invaluable in a PVP setting. Between AP, IR, and HIB, you now have 3 strong attacks that you can do at full range 30m, which allows the Vanguard to become a Pseudo long range dpser. I'd throw in Full Auto as well even though that's not really meant for us without the auto cannon, but it does get the 9% damage increase on burning targets from talent. This gives us one long range rotation (AP, IR, HIB, and FA if you just want to hang back) and one melee rotation (IR, HIB, SS, IP, with HIB on refresh)

 

You'll still want to get into melee to do full damage potential, but this gives you the option to play stealthier by dealing decent damage at full range before your opponent sees you. Without taking both AP and IR, a Vanguard would have to be within 10m pretty much all the time. I'd take both AP and IR if you want to be a true range/melee hybrid dpser.

 

Keep in mind this requires you to actually change your playstyle to hang back at full range at the start of the fight, instead of rushing into melee range all the time. If you're still playing as a full time melee Vanguard after speccing full Assault, then AP would probably feel pointless to you.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dead_Ted

[FuzzyJohnny]

We need dual spec ffs..

[Jeroun]

This guy is totally right. You can go 31 points assault and lose like 4% flat mitigation and the tiniest bit of utility in exchange you become possibly the best burster in the game. My Assault Plastique crits on Sorc's for 4,000-4,500.

 

Sure Smug's and Op's burst better and have stealth but they look squishy, have no utility and they get focused. You look like a tank and with heavy armor you actually are fairly durable.

 

When you come up on center at the beginning of Alderaan, pop battle focus and relic, tab target, IR, AP, HIB, IP/SS, HIB (AP Goes off), IP - the target is dead about half the time. How long did that take? 9 Seconds. When did the target realize they were taking serious damage - 4.5 seconds in. When did the healers realize the target was taking serious damage - maybe 6 seconds in.

 

By the time the team realizes that you aren't a tank just plinking away at them with 2,000-2,500 crits the guy you tab targeted has less than 3,000 health.

 

Also, killing other players, as opposed to surviving and fighting them for a long time is so much more important to node capture in alderaan and attacking in voidstar.

 

I admit I really miss being 23/0/18, or even heavy tactics when I'm in hutball.

 

Hayduke Smith

INFANTRY

Adjunta Pall

 

Can you link spec

[happyhappyjoy]

Can you link spec

 

23/0/18 = http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GRGb0oroMZZbIbbdh.1

 

8/2/31 = http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZ0MZfhrbdGhMs.1

 

Hayduke Smith

INFANTRY

Adjunta Pall

[AmratheAvenger]

I am not sure all you lvls but at 50 in pvp i run thishttp://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZMsZcGkrzGGrs.1 2/6/31 This is a very powerul spec in my opnion. I see a guy, ir, ap, hammer shot, hib, so know i have moved up and if everyting goes well and i hit nice crits thats 6k damage at once when u time ap and hib. But now i move in use stock strike and hope for a reset on hib and use ion pulse and get 1.5k critz and half of them, i rarly get to use ap twice, but if i get crap critz things change. But versus operatives and nearly catch them and do great in pvp. But its all play style really, i love ap and hib at the same time. Some like other routes. But once u get them below 30% health they are doomend va 31 point assault specialist

 

 

EDIT: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZMsZcGkrzGGrs.1

 

stupid link hates me, hope it works this time

Edited February 3, 2012 by AmratheAvenger

[aRtFuL]

I actually prefer 0/10/31 for Assault spec myself:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801Zrs0MZfhrrzhhrs.1

 

Reduce Harpoon and cryo grenade cooldown kings any damage increase in pvp, imo.

 

Harpoon is so crucial on Huttball for defensive play (falling-harpoon is the best way to prevent someone from getting to the goal line) and cryo grenade + stun surge is the only thing that will save u if you got ambushed by operatives.

 

Also both of those abilities can be used as interrupt in some situations.

 

Increasing a few percent of base damage on some abilities pales in comparison to the improve utility. The only thing I care about that are passive stat increases are the flat crit or proc chance increases because crit is king for bursters.

Edited February 3, 2012 by aRtFuL

[Waagabond]

AP hits for around 50% more damage then sticky.

 

It can crit in the 3-4k range, and you can easily time it to hit an HIB at the same time.

 

Get a double crit and 7k damage at once wont be irregular.

Pop relics and adrenals ontop of this and...yeah.

 

AP as assault is essential for pvp.

 

You might get bigger numbers with other specs, but who cares if you do 300k damage when your not able to kill anyone?

 

Key to pvp is to be able to burst someone down to ensure they are not healed up.

 

We are not talking when you face pugs here, but how do you burst down a sorc healer with a powertech guarding him? You do that without AP and I bid you good luck and go back to PVE content:-)

You probably wont kill a sorc with a guard anyway but you sure as hell can, and I personally have, with AP crit and HIB crit simultanious. Add in a harpoon pull to get sorc out of guard range followed by a cryo on the powertech, riot strike on sorc then another ap, stock strike, with rng an HIB and your home free.

 

Again, for PVE AP is probably a waste, although not utterly. But there are better specs out there for it. Then again, the thing is, if you want good pve dps you want atleast 28-29 points in assault anyway. So you got to ask yourself.

What can you get that is worth more for 2 talent points then AP?

I find Burnout to be great for PVP, and if you dont have it for PVE then I must ask how you are thinking.

Boss fights takes long, and having 30% extra damage on plasma cell and incend during such a fight is huge. And as such, since you have burnout, you might as well pickup AP, thats my 2 cents.

[va_wanderer]

I find Burnout to be great for PVP, and if you dont have it for PVE then I must ask how you are thinking.

Boss fights takes long, and having 30% extra damage on plasma cell and incend during such a fight is huge. And as such, since you have burnout, you might as well pickup AP, thats my 2 cents.

 

Because Burnout's extra damage only applies if the target is below 30% of it's max health, meaning 70% of the time, it's just a +3% Tech Crit bonus for triple the cost of Blaster Augs. I'd do better plugging those points into something that returns extra damage throughout the fight.

 

For a three-point talent in Assault, it's underwhelming.

[VragonBral]

Because Burnout's extra damage only applies if the target is below 30% of it's max health, meaning 70% of the time, it's just a +3% Tech Crit bonus for triple the cost of Blaster Augs. I'd do better plugging those points into something that returns extra damage throughout the fight.

 

For a three-point talent in Assault, it's underwhelming.

 

Yes, it is underwhelming. But it does add damage where it can. Since you can put some nice DoT's on a target with Ion Cell running and Incendiery still ticking on a target. And there is really no other "Damage" skills to put in the tree unless you want to get the 8% to Stockstrike. That is if your getting the non-utility skills and focusing purely on the damage one's and trying to reach AP

[Sallastar]

check out this clip.

[va_wanderer]

Yes, it is underwhelming. But it does add damage where it can. Since you can put some nice DoT's on a target with Ion Cell running and Incendiery still ticking on a target. And there is really no other "Damage" skills to put in the tree unless you want to get the 8% to Stockstrike. That is if your getting the non-utility skills and focusing purely on the damage one's and trying to reach AP

 

Point being, once you're up there, you can probably get more punch out of taking a Tier 1/2 ability from Tactics or Shield than Burnout. There's a lot of good PvE Assault that go x/x/25 cycling HIB's that can easily benefit from putting those points elsewhere to greater effect. Certainly anything that'll boost the elemental spam you're going to be generating rotating Ion Pulses/IR while repeatedly burninating the target. Heck, it might even be worth dropping the points into a quicker-regenerating Pulse Cannon shot.