Huttball Goalies!

[Aces_Over_Kings]

There have been a lot of threads complaining about the ability to grapple a Huttball carrier up to your spawn ledge. There's even one thread in which someone posted a response from a CSR stating it's a legal move. (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=143212).

 

I'd like to summarize the issues and actually propose that, instead of complaining about it, we consider embracing it as a tactical consideration. In many sports, a dedicated goalkeeper is an integral part of the game. I can't help but wonder if Bioware is laughing at us for crying about an "exploit" when they took for granted that it would become an integral part of the game from the beginning.

 

The more I think about it, the more interesting it seems. Here's a summary of the present situation as I understand it:

 

* If done correctly, a grapple lifts the ballcarrier over the scoring zone, killing them, and resetting the ball to midfield. No goal.

 

* If done incorrectly, you drag them *through* the scoring zone, killing them, but triggering a score. Goal.

 

* Alternately, if done incorrectly, they get pulled up and simply drop back down into the scoring zone. No death, and the goal counts. Goal.

 

* The (hilarious) counter to this is that the ballcarrier can throw the ball at the enemy on the spawn ledge (the goalie), it kills the goalie, and treats the kill as a normal Huttball kill, transferring it back to the thrower's team or resets it to midfield if for some reason your're not still within the normal radius. Typically results in a dead goalie and a quick score. Hilarity ensues. If the goalie can dodge the incoming ball, it resets to midfield normally.

 

* The ledges don't extend laterally far enough to cover the entire endzone. So there are potentially goal-tender "blind-spots" where one might score an uncontested goal. Haven't examined this closely (usually too busy trying to win), but it bears examination.

 

* Grapple abilities are available to Powertech/Vanguard and Shadow/Assassin, giving each faction a fair percentage of eligible "goal-tenders."

 

 

The more I think about it, the more it seems that certain classes are well suited for Offense/Defense/Goaltender roles. So instead of starting another thread complaining about it (or about how amazing sorcerors/sages/juggernauts/guardians are at Huttball), I wanted to encourage folks to treat the development with an open mind and evaluate it objectively. Until Bioware weighs in further, I have to wonder if this was part of the intent all along.

 

Personally, I think it would be an interesting responsibility to add into the mix. Yes, admittedly, I'm a Vanguard, so you'd think I'd be totally all for it, but in fact the "hero or zero" factor associated with goal-tenders is actually something I wouldn't personally enjoy. I can practically hear the nerd-raging teammates berating a goalie for botching the save or for getting blown up by a savvy ball-carrier.

 

Interested in others' thoughts, however, from a mechanics perspective.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Aces_Over_Kings

[vindianajones]

I've thought about this too. I actually like the idea a lot. I'm too burned out from these forums and a day of work to elaborate, so suffice to say that I agree with you.

[tonpu]

Shadow/Assassin pull builds are awesome goalies

 

Stealth, pull, and aoe knockback

[ZenBones]

This does open up some interesting strategies. I've pulled people up to kill them before, but I've never been there just as a ball-carrier was getting close, so I don't hang around and wait.

 

Still, this makes me feel less bad about considering the option.

[Semitote]

Goalies should be knocking people off the ledge / away from the goal, not pulling people in and instantly killing them.

[EternalFinality]

The problem is there's no real counter to this, except for another "goalie" to grapple the first goalie down.

[MPagano]

Thanks,, slowly evolving pseudo-person. We have all been waiting for the fog to clear from your paleocortex and deliver unto us this divinest of all revelations. None of us has thought of this strategy before. We've just all been here in the dark pissing and moaning like everyone else. We have no ability to evaluate and strategize. We were hopeless until you came along.

 

 

PS thanks for ruining it. Now more people will play like they're smart, but we'll know the truth. We'll know the innovation was not their own.

[heinywb]

is the grapple or force pull considered a force/tech attack? hmm...the pull itself doesnt do dmg right? was wondering if shadows/assassins can pop resiliance/force shroud and be immune to force and tech attacks for a few seconds while they force speed to the goal line

[Vegathegreat]

The problem is there's no real counter to this, except for another "goalie" to grapple the first goalie down.

 

or u can have someone run out of the range of a grapple and throw it to them?

[Aces_Over_Kings]

The problem is there's no real counter to this, except for another "goalie" to grapple the first goalie down.

 

Yeah, I considered this, but thought of the following:

 

-- Score in a part of the endzone that the goalie can't reach

-- Throw the ball at him to kill him, get the ball back, score

-- Pull him down

-- CC / Stun him

-- Kill him with superior ranged DPS

 

 

It would undeniably make for harder goals, but it doesn't seem reasonable to say that there are "no counters."

[Aces_Over_Kings]

Thanks,, slowly evolving pseudo-person. We have all been waiting for the fog to clear from your paleocortex and deliver unto us this divinest of all revelations. None of us has thought of this strategy before. We've just all been here in the dark pissing and moaning like everyone else. We have no ability to evaluate and strategize. We were hopeless until you came along.

 

 

PS thanks for ruining it. Now more people will play like they're smart, but we'll know the truth. We'll know the innovation was not their own.

 

 

Judging from the forums, yes, everyone's just been pissing and moaning. And when I tested it the other night, one of the Imps screamed "cheaters" over and over in /say. LOL. So yeah, it's worth discussing fairly and openly.

 

And that was an impressive amount of effort put forth just to be a complete d!ckhead. Cheers for not being lazy about it.

[EternalFinality]

-- Throw the ball at him to kill him, get the ball back, score

 

Why is the solution to an exploit another exploit?

[Orici]

Why is the solution to an exploit another exploit?

 

Is it an exploit?

[Aces_Over_Kings]

Why is the solution to an exploit another exploit?

 

The whole point is that, in light of the fact that it isn't being treated as an exploit by Bioware, is it actually "working as intended."

 

And, if so, should we all modify our Huttball team tactics to incorporate dedicated goalies?

 

((Of course, judging by MPagano's post above, you'd think that this had already happened and that the issue was rampant. Hasn't been my experience, but whatever.))

Edited January 30, 2012 by Aces_Over_Kings

[Noollig]

Why is the solution to an exploit another exploit?

 

Did you check the link with the CSR response? It's a legal move, so the solution to the legal move may be an exploit, but it is most likely just as legal.

[Vlaid]

Isn't the range of throwing the ball nearly the same as the grapple so it's pretty much impossible to kill a grappler before they can grapple you by throwing the ball at them?

[Aces_Over_Kings]

Did you check the link with the CSR response? It's a legal move, so the solution to the legal move may be an exploit, but it is most likely just as legal.

 

I have to believe the insta-kill for *any* ball-carrier is intended, as it prevents a sage from grappling a friendly up into your own spawn and turtling the ball in an unreachable location for a win.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Aces_Over_Kings

[Semitote]

I gotta say this move is pretty frustrating, but rarely happens to me...

 

but then you gotta listen to the announcer at the beginning of the match... Cheating is encouraged.

 

Maybe that's why they don't care about this exploit?

[EternalFinality]

Did you check the link with the CSR response? It's a legal move, so the solution to the legal move may be an exploit, but it is most likely just as legal.

 

A CSR is not a Bioware dev. WoW GMs said hilariously wrong things all the time.

 

Thing is, when people posted about it on the forums and included screenshots, actual devs would come in and set the record straight. Bioware devs on the other hand cower in fear of posting.

 

That, and the person responsible is probably Gabe.

Edited January 30, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Aces_Over_Kings]

I gotta say this move is pretty frustrating, but rarely happens to me...

 

but then you gotta listen to the announcer at the beginning of the match... Cheating is encouraged.

 

Maybe that's why they don't care about this exploit?

 

 

No one would enjoy a game of soccer or hockey if only one team was fielding a goalie.

 

I propose that it would be less frustrating if each team just accepted that one person had the responsibility and both teams had one going as a regular part of Huttball culture.

[Viscerus]

Yeah, I considered this, but thought of the following:

 

-- Score in a part of the endzone that the goalie can't reach

-- Throw the ball at him to kill him, get the ball back, score

-- Pull him down

-- CC / Stun him

-- Kill him with superior ranged DPS

 

 

It would undeniably make for harder goals, but it doesn't seem reasonable to say that there are "no counters."

 

The problem with this one is that they can easily see the circle coming and run out of the balls path and you just reset teh thing.

[Aces_Over_Kings]

The problem with this one is that they can easily see the circle coming and run out of the balls path and you just reset teh thing.

 

In theory, yes. But in theory, everyone should be able to avoid the fire and acid pits too.

 

There's no way the goalie would ever have a full resolve bar, so they'd be at the mercy of whatever CC, grapple, etc. anyone threw at them.

 

I think if the overall concept caught on, it would require more "offensive linemen" to escort the ballcarrier to the endzone, rather than turning back once they see them make it to the final ramp.

 

A lot of the objections are proposed based on a 1v1 goalie/ballcarrier showdown. One additional escort and it's an easy goal I think.

[Noollig]

In theory, yes. But in theory, everyone should be able to avoid the fire and acid pits too.

 

There's no way the goalie would ever have a full resolve bar, so they'd be at the mercy of whatever CC, grapple, etc. anyone threw at them.

 

I think if the overall concept caught on, it would require more "offensive linemen" to escort the ballcarrier to the endzone, rather than turning back once they see them make it to the final ramp.

 

A lot of the objections are proposed based on a 1v1 goalie/ballcarrier showdown. One additional escort and it's an easy goal I think.

 

Yeah, pretty much. The other thing people seem to forget is that if you aren't running down the center ramp, you can just run off to the sides to avoid his range. Really, teammates should be ahead of you too, ready for a pass straight into the end zone. I always hate it when my teammates crowd around me or follow just behind me rather than running ahead to get open for a pass. It inevitably leads to a bunch of AoE and attracts attention.

[Agroovesak]

In theory, yes. But in theory, everyone should be able to avoid the fire and acid pits too.

 

There's no way the goalie would ever have a full resolve bar, so they'd be at the mercy of whatever CC, grapple, etc. anyone threw at them.

 

I think if the overall concept caught on, it would require more "offensive linemen" to escort the ballcarrier to the endzone, rather than turning back once they see them make it to the final ramp.

 

A lot of the objections are proposed based on a 1v1 goalie/ballcarrier showdown. One additional escort and it's an easy goal I think.

 

This.

 

Even assuming all of your cc is down, if somebody else comes with you and goes to the actual goal line for a pass, the 'goalie' now has to decide whether to pull you or whether you will pass and he needs to pull the other asap.

 

Not to mention by playing goalie you are leaving your team 7v8. This can mean a disastrous snowballing of lost mid and passing lane control for your team. Also, in order to actually play goalie, the goalie needs to run to the very side of the stage once a minute to reset his afk timer, during which you can pass or just get close enough to the goal to score when he pulls you. Of course, sin ball carriers negate this strategy completely, as do AP Powertech carriers.

[Aces_Over_Kings]

This.

 

Even assuming all of your cc is down, if somebody else comes with you and goes to the actual goal line for a pass, the 'goalie' now has to decide whether to pull you or whether you will pass and he needs to pull the other asap.

 

Not to mention by playing goalie you are leaving your team 7v8. This can mean a disastrous snowballing of lost mid and passing lane control for your team. Also, in order to actually play goalie, the goalie needs to run to the very side of the stage once a minute to reset his afk timer, during which you can pass or just get close enough to the goal to score when he pulls you. Of course, sin ball carriers negate this strategy completely, as do AP Powertech carriers.

 

 

Yeah, if the other team doesn't have one stationed in their goal, you're at a man disadvantage for sure. It then becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, where you NEED the goalie because you HAVE the goalie, and the disadvantage is tipping the action towards your defensive zone.

 

I guess the point of the post is that I see enough balance that it seems like it should be treated as a mainstream tactic that carries pros and cons. Right now it's treated like you just kicked someone's puppy and they go crying to [bioware][Fleet][Forums][Guildchat].