Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[Grecanis]

so why should I consider them first?

 

Only you can answer that ..I hold no sway there

[StonySpider]

I am taking your argument to the logical conclusion. You are still imposing values on the full Need roll whether you are willing to admit it or not.

 

I'm saying that the only fair system is one devoid of all values.

 

What makes my need for cash and less important than your need to look nice? Not a thing.

 

You will reap the world you sow with your actions.

 

But the need to have better stats is more vital than credits or appearance, because stats are what let you keep playing the game. Every piece of gear you need over someone who can actually use it to better their performance hurts the chances that they will be able to play the game, increases the chances that they will stop playing, and increases the chances of killing SWTOR.

 

That's the purpose of things like social contracts, to prevent anarchy and selfishness from destroying a community and anything behind it.

[souloferdrick]

Unless everyone shares your opinion on this, than this most certainly isn't fair to everyone like you suggest. If you don't establish before the FP that you'll be needing on everything you want, then you'll have an unfair advantage over all others that will only be rolling on items with their PCs main attribute.

 

Fair has nothing to do with what the majority thinks it is or wants it to be. Its precisely how I described it. However, people are free to create their own rules, fair or not, and play to them if they can get enough people to agree and play with them. No one is stopping them.

 

Yes, loot rules and/or intentions should be discussed, its a smart practice when building or participating in a random group.

 

If people really put some thought into this, they would be insulted because whats basically being said is that you-the reader (yes you) cannot be relied upon or trusted to make an intelligent or rational decision when it comes to loot distribution and something else needs to regulate it. We're just too stupid to do it ourselves. That's the implication anyway. That's not going to be admitted too for obvious reasons.

 

Whether its for your class or not is not relevant. You being entitled to that drop based on that parameter alone is a matter of opinion. If everyone wants to let you have it, great, but you cross a line by expecting it.

Edited January 30, 2012 by souloferdrick

[Galbatorrix]

And this is really the core of it. You're worried that someone's going to take something you want, so you're trying to define the acceptable window as narrowly as possible. You'll happily give up stuff you don't want to ensure that nobody else takes a shot at what you do.

 

If you're going to be a nice guy and not roll on anything that isn't exactly for your class, that's your call. Or, you could accept that some people will find broader use for items than you do, which might even <GASP> overlap with something you want. You can respond to that by rolling on anything and everything - basically, being the jerk you're accusing everyone else of being - or you can accept that different people see different priorities, and that respecting that may occasionally mean you don't get the item you wanted, and have to run the FP again.

 

If you really can't find any other choices between "Only roll on things that are explicitly labeled for my class" and "I'll take everything that isn't nailed down"... <shrug> Nothing much to do, I think, except suggest you take a deep breath and a step back, because there really is a lot more room for respecting other people's choices.

 

 

 

Haha, what a bunch of crap. The fact that you try to make me the bad guy in this is ridiculous. I'm passing on everything that I can't use. This means that in some cases, I may run a flashpoint several times before winning ANYTHING. And I'm the bad guy here. Wow.. you really need to check your concepts of morality and heck even reality and then think about this whole thing again.

 

 

And good job getting the point. Your way promotes everyone to need everything. Period. If people see that the group is rolling for Mods, companions, appearance, credits, etc.... why would they continue to pass on loot at that point? Your method jades people and promotes arguments. I mean, you guys don't even have a set limit to your "needs". Ours is "the items meant for our class. ie cunning for a gunslinger". Yours is "anything I personally see as beneficial". And better yet, a lot of you get angry when someone expects you to explain your actions. So, you want to need on things in a very broad way and then keep the reasoning a secret because it's "none of our business".

 

 

Yep, I'm the bad guy here.... At least our method has a limit and at least the items we're needing on are easily justifiable. I mean, I don't even have to say "none of your business!", because when my Operative needs on the Operative's Jacket, people just know. Can you say the same? Of right... it's none of their business anyway.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[StonySpider]

Making my companion better, will have as much effect on my character as the gear would on your character. I fail to see how this makes me any more greedy then anyone else who wants a given item to make their character better.

 

Because you don't use companions in full groups or ops, which is where the hardest content in the game takes place. As well as the fact that a player will always be better at using the gear you give to your companion, the AI just isn't enough to make up for human intuition.

[Creed_Buhallin]

I am taking your argument to the logical conclusion. You are still imposing values on the full Need roll whether you are willing to admit it or not.

Oh, I'm certainly willing to admit it - I have all along. Although for me it's pretty limited - I hold to the strict original definition of need/greed. "If you're going to use it, Need. If you're going to sell it, Greed." I believe the marginal utility of selling items is so low as to be pointless. Honestly, if you need credits that bad, I'll pay you the 6K you'd get from selling every boss drop in the FP, and you can pass, and everyone wins. But I'm willing to work that out.

 

You're not taking anything to a logical conclusion - you're taking it to an extreme conclusion. It seems "respect others" is too complex for you, and you can't stop anywhere short of Ludicrous Speed!

[Loendar]

But the need to have better stats is more vital than credits or appearance, because stats are what let you keep playing the game. Every piece of gear you need over someone who can actually use it to better their performance hurts the chances that they will be able to play the game, increases the chances that they will stop playing, and increases the chances of killing SWTOR.

 

That's the purpose of things like social contracts, to prevent anarchy and selfishness from destroying a community and anything behind it.

 

To who? You?

 

My stats will increase by my ability to purchase upgrades with the cash I get running the Flashpoint with you and hoarding all the gear. That will make my toon better and based on the assessment of my likeminded comrades in this thread that is all that should matter.

 

I have the RIGHT to roll on everything because I am present for it and my reasons are mine alone.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what they are saying - but they have made it pretty darn clear. With the exception of looting for credits, granted - but what is one more little reason to roll against someone when all the others clearly don't matter?

[Loendar]

Oh, I'm certainly willing to admit it - I have all along. Although for me it's pretty limited - I hold to the strict original definition of need/greed. "If you're going to use it, Need. If you're going to sell it, Greed." I believe the marginal utility of selling items is so low as to be pointless. Honestly, if you need credits that bad, I'll pay you the 6K you'd get from selling every boss drop in the FP, and you can pass, and everyone wins. But I'm willing to work that out.

 

You're not taking anything to a logical conclusion - you're taking it to an extreme conclusion. It seems "respect others" is too complex for you, and you can't stop anywhere short of Ludicrous Speed!

 

You haven't played many MMO's if you think my destination is an extreme conclusion. It is the state that a lot of these games started from before people started treating them as a social game and not a personal one.

 

I've been around a long time.... I've lived it already and prefer not to go back to it simply because you can't be bothered to look out for another players interest.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Loendar

[Creed_Buhallin]

But the need to have better stats is more vital than credits or appearance, because stats are what let you keep playing the game. Every piece of gear you need over someone who can actually use it to better their performance hurts the chances that they will be able to play the game, increases the chances that they will stop playing, and increases the chances of killing SWTOR.

 

That's the purpose of things like social contracts, to prevent anarchy and selfishness from destroying a community and anything behind it.

 

Wow... Hyperventilate much??

 

I guess we've all been told, people - prioritize your stats, or you're killing the game!!

 

Seriously, that's the funniest thing I've read all day!

[VanorDM]

Only you can answer that ..I hold no sway there

 

And again with the condensing morally superior comments eh?

 

I did as much to kill the boss as anyone else, there for I have as much right to the loot as anyone else. Yet here you are trying to enforce a layer of morality onto it, one in which yours is clearly superior.

 

They didn't do more work then me. They are in no way more deserving then me. Yet here you are saying that I have a obligation to let them have it, just because you think they deserve it more then me.

 

Why exactly is it, that you think you have the moral authority to decide who is more deserving then someone else?

 

Isn't that the height of selfish behavior when you claim that you and only you get to decide what is right and what is wrong?

[StonySpider]

To who? You?

 

My stats will increase by my ability to purchase upgrades with the cash I get running the Flashpoint with you and hoarding all the gear. That will make my toon better and based on the assessment of my likeminded comrades in this thread that is all that should matter.

 

I have the RIGHT to roll on everything because I am present for it and my reasons are mine alone.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what they are saying - but they have made it pretty darn clear. With the exception of looting for credits, granted - but what is one more little reason to roll against someone when all the others clearly don't matter?

 

I'm not advocating hoarding all the gear. I'm advocating only needing it if it's an upgrade for your character, and I'll do the same. If no one needs, ask if you can for your companion/looks, I guarantee no one will have a problem with it. You completely misunderstood my post.

 

Also, where exactly can you buy quality upgrades with credits, and not planet or warzone commendations? The GTN is not an accptable answer, the stuff on there is rarely quality anyway.

Edited January 30, 2012 by StonySpider

[VanorDM]

I'm advocating only needing it if it's an upgrade for your character, and I'll do the same.

 

The difference here is, you are setting yourself up as the person who can decide if it is a upgrade for my character or not. Because you are putting in limitations on what is actually an upgrade (on my character) and what isn't (on my companion.)

 

Pretty much everyone here tends to agree, that communication is key. Preferably prior to the event starting, so everyone knows what's going on and what is expected.

[Grecanis]

And again with the condensing morally superior comments eh?

 

I did as much to kill the boss as anyone else, there for I have as much right to the loot as anyone else. Yet here you are trying to enforce a layer of morality onto it, one in which yours is clearly superior.

 

They didn't do more work then me. They are in no way more deserving then me. Yet here you are saying that I have a obligation to let them have it, just because you think they deserve it more then me.

 

Why exactly is it, that you think you have the moral authority to decide who is more deserving then someone else?

 

Isn't that the height of selfish behavior when you claim that you and only you get to decide what is right and what is wrong?

 

What's condesending about it ...it's the truth, I cannot answer that question for him because the answer is different for everyone. What I say matters not one way or another.

 

So please, If I can't speak my mind without insulting you, then maybe you should just put me on ignore.

[Creed_Buhallin]

And good job getting the point. You're way promotes everyone to need everything. Period. If people see that the group is rolling for Mods, companions, appearance, credits, etc.... why would they continue to pass on loot at that point? Your method jades people and promotes arguments. I mean, you guys don't even have a set limit to your "needs". Ours is "the items meant for our class. ie cunning for a gunslinger". Yours is "anything I personally see as beneficial. And better yet, a lot of you get angry when someone expects you to explain your actions. So, you want to need on things in a very broad way and then keep the reasoning a secret because it's "none of out business".

What's to stop people from just going nuts? Nothing, I suppose - if I think I can use a mod in an orange item, the next step is human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! There's no way that other people in the group could possibly just say "That item doesn't have anything I can use in it, so I'll pass."

 

The last stuff is just ludicrous. Has anyone actually said any of this? Yes, I believe that I'm entitled to roll on things I'll see as beneficial, whether you see the benefit or not. I'm also happy to explain the benefit I'll see from an item. You're starting to just make stuff up now.

 

Yes, your option is a useful line. But it's also an overly limiting, outdated one which simply isn't practical for the realities of this game. I'm really sorry that it's too complex for you - that you can't manage to go past "item meant for my class" and deal with mixed mods and customizable appearance without falling all the way into "I'll roll on everything because if I don't then someone else will get more than me."

 

Yep, I'm the bad guy here.... At least our method has a limit and at least the items we're needing on are easily justifiable. I mean, I don't even have to say "none of you're business!", because when my Operative needs on the Operative's Jacket, people just know. Can you say the same? Of right... it's none of their business anyway.

The highlighted bit is the important part. It's only hard to justify because you're making it hard - because you're forcing everyone to explain to you why they're taking YOUR stuff. You talk about the Operative. You do realize that if an Operative has an orange blaster rifle, and an orange sniper rifle drops, they can move every stat on that to their rifle? Personally, I wouldn't expect them to explain that, but even if I did, why would it be hard? Heck, by your own "appearance doesn't matter, only stats" standard, that should be equally viable for either, right?

[VanorDM]

What's condesending about it.

 

The That's what was condescending about it.

 

Because that made it clear you were implying that the moral character of the person you were responding to was inferior to yours. Perhaps you didn't intend for it to come off that way, but I doubt I'm the only one who took that meaning away from it.

 

If you really didn't intend that in your statement, then I apologize.

 

But as a fairly standard netiquette type thing a denotes that you are making a joke, or speaking sarcastically.

Edited January 30, 2012 by VanorDM

[StonySpider]

The difference here is, you are setting yourself up as the person who can decide if it is a upgrade for my character or not. Because you are putting in limitations on what is actually an upgrade (on my character) and what isn't (on my companion.)

 

Pretty much everyone here tends to agree, that communication is key. Preferably prior to the event starting, so everyone knows what's going on and what is expected.

 

I guess that's just the way I see it. Companions are intrinsically of less value than player characters, because player characters are actual people, and deserve respect. It's my opinion and I'm not trying to force it on you, I'm just trying to defend my position.

 

I think it's definitely a good thing that everyone agrees that communication is key, and that everyone gets things ironed out before hand. It kinda gives me hope for these forums.

[VanorDM]

Companions are intrinsically of less value than player characters, because player characters are actual people, and deserve respect.

 

The way I and I believe others who are on my 'side' look at it, is that an upgrade to a companion can have as much if not a bigger impact on my character then similar gear might on my character himself.

 

Here's my line of reasoning...

 

If I can find a bit of gear that increases Kira's DPS by 10% that's a direct increase to my DPS, when ever she is active. As a Guardian, DPS is not my strong suit, and trying to gear for it can actually make me weaker.

 

So I can gear up Kira, get better DPS for when she's around, and still maintain the same level of tanking gear I have for when I'm in a group.

 

Someone else on the other hand may find that big of gear only gives them a 2-3% increase in DPS. I'd say that clearly in this case I get more benefit from it then someone else does, even though it's not slotted on my character.

[Creed_Buhallin]

I guess that's just the way I see it. Companions are intrinsically of less value than player characters, because player characters are actual people, and deserve respect. It's my opinion and I'm not trying to force it on you, I'm just trying to defend my position.

Then why can't you respect the fact that many players view their companions as extensions to their character? This isn't really different than saying that the earpiece slot is intrinsically of less value than the chest slot because it doesn't have armor.

 

Vette is not a person. When you yell at a player because they put a piece of armor or a blaster on Vette, you're not yelling at Vette - you're yelling at the player. Putting an item on my companion is not somehow disrespecting you as a person because I'm prioritizing Vette over you and she's not real - I'm prioritizing my gameplay over yours, just as you're trying to do to me when you choose to roll on an item.

[Grecanis]

The That's what was condescending about it.

 

Because that made it clear you were implying that the moral character of the person you were responding to was inferior to yours. Perhaps you didn't intend for it to come off that way, but I doubt I'm the only one who took that meaning away from it.

 

Sooo ...the fact that I use a wink emote for levity proves that my real intent was to be condesending? ..let me top off your half empty cup also. (that was meant to sound condecending)

 

If I at all sound that way it's because I am confident in my notion that I am on the right side of this debate.

[stem]

I rarely group with anyone but guild members so this is mostly a non-issue.

 

On the off occasion we need a PuG player, we make it very clear how the loot distribution looks before the encounter.

 

If they chose to ignore it, they’ll get dropped and set on a guild wide /ignore list.

 

With legacy in game, you really have to ask yourself how much an items worth to you to be black listed from an entire guild (possibly more guilds) for your server account.

 

I'd suggest fewer players will resort to such gameplay because of the Legacy system.

[StonySpider]

The way I and I believe others who are on my 'side' look at it, is that an upgrade to a companion can have as much if not a bigger impact on my character then similar gear might on my character himself.

 

Here's my line of reasoning...

 

If I can find a bit of gear that increases Kira's DPS by 10% that's a direct increase to my DPS, when ever she is active. As a Guardian, DPS is not my strong suit, and trying to gear for it can actually make me weaker.

 

So I can gear up Kira, get better DPS for when she's around, and still maintain the same level of tanking gear I have for when I'm in a group.

 

Someone else on the other hand may find that big of gear only gives them a 2-3% increase in DPS. I'd say that clearly in this case I get more benefit from it then someone else does, even though it's not slotted on my character.

 

My problem with that logic is that you don't have your companion active at all times, for instance in a flashpoint, Kira's increased DPS doesn't count for anything, where as if it's an upgrade for someone's actual character, it will be on, all the time, passively providing bonuses.

 

I definitely get where you're coming from though. As a Healer Sage gearing my tank companion is crucial for questing. But there are lots of ways to get that gear, that I think are even more efficient because it doesn't rely on random drops. Like crafting mods, and buying gear with commendations.

[Creed_Buhallin]

With legacy in game, you really have to ask yourself how much an items worth to you to be black listed from an entire guild (possibly more guilds) for your server account.

 

I'd suggest fewer players will resort to such gameplay because of the Legacy system.

Sooo.... You do realize that it's not mandatory to display the legacy name, right?

 

You may need to work on your intimidation a bit...

[Loendar]

I rarely group with anyone but guild members so this is mostly a non-issue.

 

On the off occasion we need a PuG player, we make it very clear how the loot distribution looks before the encounter.

 

If they chose to ignore it, they’ll get dropped and set on a guild wide /ignore list.

 

With legacy in game, you really have to ask yourself how much an items worth to you to be black listed from an entire guild (possibly more guilds) for your server account.

 

I'd suggest fewer players will resort to such gameplay because of the Legacy system.

 

I have been assured by many on this thread that their actions in a group the aid their personal solo experience or appearance over a full player controlled character will not be penalized. As they continue to say it over and over, I can only assume that they are accurate and there will be no community policing.

[Galbatorrix]

I'm also happy to explain the benefit I'll see from an item. You're starting to just make stuff up now.

 

 

You obviously have not been in this conversation long. Plenty of people arguing your side have said it's none of anyone's business how they roll and what they win.

 

 

The rest of what you said is dribble. More hyperbole that only proves further that you're just trying to justify your mass greed and entitlement (nothing dropped for ME, so I'll take this Guardian's chest piece for the plus 2 Endurance, Yar!).

 

Again, play how you like. Obviously, Bioware's flawed need system won't stop you, but I can guarantee you that you'll have a lot of bickering group mates in your future.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Galbatorrix]

Sooo.... You do realize that it's not mandatory to display the legacy name, right?

 

You may need to work on your intimidation a bit...

 

 

Nice, you already have it worked out for when you get black listed. Good to plan ahead I guess.