The question isn't "if", it is "when"

[Sathid]

We take these CC/utility talents or dps talents, it's a choice. We don't get both.

 

Your examples are flawed.

 

What is a free slow damage self buff?

 

Shield is based on us being a light armor glass cannon class, nothing new to MMO's.

 

We have force speed along the same lines, along with other classes I might add.

 

Everyone has an escape.

 

Everyone has an instant stun.

 

Our healing as a dps spec is not even worth using. 3 sec cast for 1500 heal, no thanks.

 

 

Nothing is OP here. This is the typical glass cannon class you see in every MMO, leave us alone and we'll do a lot of dmg. Focus us and we go down quickly. We work like a shadow priest in WOW. Try interrupting force lightning once in a while. Use your CC breaker on the right spell instead of our knockback, etc.

 

There's plenty of people that **** all over sorcs in WZ's. We have counters like everyone else.

 

Thought you said you do not play one,but there you say WE,,as far as counters guess there is one less now huh.

[Chaostie]

No one complains about the Sage... Which leads me to believe we are NOT equal to the sorcerer...

 

Or it could be that no one really plays Republic, thus making Sages less of a "problem" in Warzones. Empire gets Huttball 75% of the time, we rarely even see Sages.

[Ishkur]

Thought you said you do not play one,but there you say WE,,as far as counters guess there is one less now huh.

 

Bwahahaha, this.

 

You even have to HIDE the fact that you play one acuse you are ashamed how OP it is and you KNOW it.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ishkur

[Babyfood]

Bwahahaha, this.

 

You even have to HIDE the fact that you play one acuse you are ashamed how OP it is and you KNOW it.

 

this :>

[Felene]

Having played a sniper, as sorc, and a merc, I don't think sorcs are OP. They have a wide array of tricks available to them, but unless they are 31/31/31 spec'ed, they only do one of them really well at a given time. I actually like my merc or my sniper more I have found,. I think the thing about sorcs is that is what alot of people went with first, although I am lately seeing BH mercs everywhere too.

 

According to the pvp forum nerf cryers, all sorc is 31/31/31 for some reason.

[jblazen]

No one complains about the Sage... Which leads me to believe we are NOT equal to the sorcerer...

 

Amazing...

 

The fact that people are not complaining about sages proves that it's a matter of proportion. They're mirrors, EXACTLY THE SAME with different animations. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

People QQ about sorcs and not sages because sorc's are so pervasive in WZ's. If population wasn't an issue, you'd have equal QQ against sages but that's not the case. But you never hear about sages. Why? Cuz there's very few of them when compared to sorc's.

 

It's a matter of one's perception is based on their experiences and that lends itself to skewing. If your enemies consist of mostly one class, your perceptions will reflect that and your opinions will be reflected accordingly.

 

I see statements like "sages are fine, nerf sorc's" essentially and that shows exactly what the issue is. It's a matter of perception, not reality.

[Oloh]

Don't nerf me bro.

[MacOda]

There are a lot of arguments being made here which has nothing to do with the core issue. The bottom line is when a class is more powerful than others...people will migrate to it to have an advantage. This has been going on in MMOs since they were created and will continue to do so. The key indicator for this in PvP is when you see class diversity starting to drastically reduce in Warzone populations. As has been pointed out, people are seeing that the overwhelming amount of people on the Sith side are primarily playing Sorcerors (usually about 5-6 per WZ) with the next highest represented class being the Bounty Hunter (usually 2-3 per WZ). Not all groups do not consist of just these two toon types, but they do represent at least 75% of the groups I see on my server. With this being the case, it won't be long until Republic sides start consisting more and more of Sages and Troopers (already seeing it more and more in the 10-49 bracket).

 

The claim that class PvP performance does not impact its representation in Warzones is not accurate. That is why people think it is obvious the class should be toned down (the most likely case) or other classes should be buffed. From a developer's viewpoint, it is easier to adjust one class instead of multiple.

[Phaelus]

Fought 5 mercs , much easier than 5 sorcs/sages. Again , Mercs don't have absorb shields or basically invincibility. Merc shields only mitigate 25% of damage and heavy armor doesn't mitigate all damage plus they can only apply the shield to themselves and not allies.

 

Sorcs and sages are fine but very almost unbeatable in numbers and that's because of that shield.

 

I don't know what matches you've been in, but at least on my sage with all Force Armor talents and as healing spec, my bubble drops in mere seconds. I literally have one good heal in me before that bubble is gone so it does almost nothing for me or the people I'm trying to heal up. It seems to serve better in pve or for secondary targets than anything else, but is in no way overpowered.

 

If it is better for the sorc, then yes by all means nerf it or buff mine.

[Chaoix]

I think the problem is in the pvp mechanics not the Sorc/Sages themselves. Should 6 sorcs/sages or 6 BH/Commandos be allowed to queue into the same warzone together? No they shouldn't. The easiest way to fix the pvp is to force some kind of team diversity to discourage FOTM rerolls (which I would argue are definitely Sorcs at the moment since the nerf to OPs).

 

Another change could possibly be how the pvp buff is applied. I have no problem with sorcs in world pvp. They only seem to be OP in warzones. The buff should be class dependant so a more accurate pvp balance can be established instead of general nerfs to one class or another (which no one likes btw).

[Hezakia]

Ranged is the name of the game, Add in a stupid amount of CC and you have the desired PVP class. Its that simple.

[Celebrus]

Ive seen that exact comment so may times i knew it was coming in this thread ,fact of the matter is,is that these groups that are common with 4 to 5 or even 8 sorcs are Imperial 90% of the time or more.

 

You guys are soo unoriginal,must be generational or something.

 

Nerf-shocked operative is lashing out.

 

 

<- Sniper/Assassin in favor of operative nerfs. Sorcs/sages need it too. Whether you have a split second hidden cast time on Project or not.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Celebrus

[jblazen]

Bwahahaha, this.

 

You even have to HIDE the fact that you play one acuse you are ashamed how OP it is and you KNOW it.

 

I have an alt sorc at 14 which I'm leveling via pvp, it's not my main. I also have an alt merc and marauder.

 

The best way to be skilled in pvp is to understand all the other classes and their strengths and weaknesses. You should try it, you might learn something. For instance, Sorc's are no different than any other class. They have counters.

 

People have more than one class...

[Keninblack]

I think the problem is in the pvp mechanics not the Sorc/Sages themselves. Should 6 sorcs/sages or 6 BH/Commandos be allowed to queue into the same warzone together? No they shouldn't. The easiest way to fix the pvp is to force some kind of team diversity to discourage FOTM rerolls (which I would argue are definitely Sorcs at the moment since the nerf to OPs).

Another change could possibly be how the pvp buff is applied. I have no problem with sorcs in world pvp. They only seem to be OP in warzones. The buff should be class dependant so a more accurate pvp balance can be established instead of general nerfs to one class or another (which no one likes btw).

 

I would LOVE that idea, but i smell hour long ques now.

[Rheeling]

Going to mention a couple points brought up earlier in the thread which people seem to don't understand:

 

A) BioWare won't want to nerf the most played class in the game. They'd lose a ton of subs over it. And we, as the playerbase, are to blame for that. There are a decent chunk of people who would quit a game if the class/way they played wasn't the easiest or had the biggest advantages. So until we, as a community, get our **** together and stop wanting everything to be easy mode "or we quit!!!", then they probably won't get nerfed.

 

B) It's not a Sorc/Sage that's the problem. It's the fact that there are at least 3 (mostly applies to Empire). Anyone who has 3 different sets of 2-3 dots on them will melt. Plain and simple. Anyone who is being hit by 3 different sets of Tracer Missiles will met. Same deal goes for every other decent-high damaging ability in the game. C'mon people.

 

Now for a couple of my own:

 

A) This class has versatility in specs. It can be pure healer, pure damage, hybrid, or even offer a solid amount of extra CC/defense if specced correctly. Nobody in the game can have all of that at once, yet people are claiming they can. With 3-4 Sorcs in one warzone, you can potentially see almost every viable spec. Then people start assuming every Sorc can do all of that, rather than looking into the builds to figure out what's going on.

 

B) A very good player will make Sorcs look ridiculously overpowered. With all the tools available, there is a lot of potential for a Sorc to be a game changer in a warzone. Granted, this can go for almost any class in the game as well. But, I do believe the plethora of tools Sorcs get can make the class shine brighter than a star when played very well.

[Zekoisop]

We take these CC/utility talents or dps talents, it's a choice. We don't get both.

 

Your examples are flawed.

 

What is a free slow damage self buff?

 

Shield is based on us being a light armor glass cannon class, nothing new to MMO's.

 

We have force speed along the same lines, along with other classes I might add.

 

Everyone has an escape.

 

Everyone has an instant stun.

 

Our healing as a dps spec is not even worth using. 3 sec cast for 1500 heal, no thanks.

 

 

Nothing is OP here. This is the typical glass cannon class you see in every MMO, leave us alone and we'll do a lot of dmg. Focus us and we go down quickly. We work like a shadow priest in WOW. Try interrupting force lightning once in a while. Use your CC breaker on the right spell instead of our knockback, etc.

 

There's plenty of people that **** all over sorcs in WZ's. We have counters like everyone else.

 

I thought you said you weren't a sorc but now you're like 'we' when refering to a sorc. Is a sorc your alt or was it your main and you switched? lol

 

Everything is fine with your class except that shield. I see the logic in having an absorption shield for a light armored class but there are a couple flaws in SWTOR in particular.

 

( Note , I played Aion mages Sorc and Spiritmaster so this is my comparison)

 

In Aion , the light armored mages had stone skin. This was your typical mmo absorption shield for mages but it had far stricter limitation than in SWTOR and it goes something like this. The shield absorbed a certain amount of flat damage ( just like swtor) , when it was fully absorbed it was gone until the CD came up again which was typically 5 minutes. A mage in Aion really had to watch themselves , those shields can also be dispelled by certain classes but for a cost. The shield can only be applied to oneself , not an ally or the allied shields would have a huge CD cost to it like 10 minutes ( not like swtor , in swtor the shield/bubble can be more freely shared between sages/sorcs and their teams.

Also , in swtor , armor isn't all that great in pvp considering that it only mitigates certain kinds of damage but is completely ignored by tech/force which all classes have a great deal of. Bubble absorbs everything.

 

Lets assumed an ideal 'balanced' team which might have 1 or 2 sorcs /sages and a mix of other classes then those sorc/sages wouldn't be near impossible to deal with but still be a challenge to overcome due to the other class mechanics with them.

[Darth_Philar]

Consider WoW:

Fact 1: The Hunter is the most played class in the game (around 16% of all characters).

Fact 2: The Hunter has the highest representation in Battlegrounds as a result of Fact 1 (around 16%).

Fact 3: The Hunter is also the least represented in high end PvP (around 2%) as it is bugged and underpowered.

 

Just because you see a lot of one class it does not mean that the class is OP or UP. In fact, it has no bearing whatsoever.

 

If you want to make a claim that a class is OP, you need to present RELEVANT data.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Ishkur]

i have an alt sorc at 14 which i'm leveling via pvp, it's not my main. I also have an alt merc and marauder.

 

The best way to be skilled in pvp is to understand all the other classes and their strengths and weaknesses. You should try it, you might learn something. For instance, sorc's are no different than any other class. They have counters.

 

People have more than one class...

 

suuuuure...

[Raque]

The claim that class PvP performance does not impact its representation in Warzones is not accurate.

It is not accurate. However what is accurate is that people claiming one class is overpowered over and over again does impact representation in Warzones regardless if that class actually is overpowered or not. Truth does not matter in this case, what people believe does.

[Szin]

Amazing...

 

The fact that people are not complaining about sages proves that it's a matter of proportion. They're mirrors, EXACTLY THE SAME with different animations. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

They are not mirrors.Im sorc and I did make sage clas.What I find out is ..sage can do more dmg in less time than sorc.Problem is there are not many reps..so there is not many sage clas players and most of them are not pure dps but heal/dps or something.

 

So I will say sages are OP..nerf them!!!!!

Edited January 30, 2012 by Szin

[Raque]

People are complaining about DPS Sorcerers ganging up on them. Well, our weakness is we are very squishy so to combat that we need to either put ourselves in positions to be unattractive targets or have support to burn them down before they burn us down.

 

Simple logic dictates that the easiest way to accomplish both of those things is to try and be with others around to support you. With more then 1 sorcerer feeling that way, it tends to get us to form packs of 2-3.

 

2-3 of any class makeup will melt single players all alone.

[MacOda]

A) BioWare won't want to nerf the most played class in the game. They'd lose a ton of subs over it. And we, as the playerbase, are to blame for that. There are a decent chunk of people who would quit a game if the class/way they played wasn't the easiest or had the biggest advantages. So until we, as a community, get our **** together and stop wanting everything to be easy mode "or we quit!!!", then they probably won't get nerfed.

 

 

I really don't think this is the case. If you bring a class in line with other classes in terms of balance (or somewhat close to it), they will still continue to play that character...even though it won't have the same advantages it once possessed. The notion that a nerf would result in mass exodus doesn't really seem likely. An example of this was the Death Knight class in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion for WoW. It underwent significant nerfs for a year to bring it more in line with other classes...yet it still was easily one of the most played characters.

[Ishkur]

People are complaining about DPS Sorcerers ganging up on them. Well, our weakness is we are very squishy so to combat that we need to either put ourselves in positions to be unattractive targets or have support to burn them down before they burn us down.

 

Simple logic dictates that the easiest way to accomplish both of those things is to try and be with others around to support you. With more then 1 sorcerer feeling that way, it tends to get us to form packs of 2-3.

 

2-3 of any class makeup will melt single players all alone.

 

Shield, heal, escape, force run, .. Squishy, yeah...

[Archaar]

The only thing that needs to be adjusted with Sorcs / Sages is the sheer amount of CC they have available and how short the cooldowns are on these abilities.

 

I have a 50 shadow and a 46 Sage, on my sage I can perma keep a melee at range with the combinations of AoE Knockback (which also roots), Force Slow, Telekinetic throw, Force Stun, Force Lift and Force Speed. I should NOT be able to do this.

[Atamosk]

I can't help it if logic prevails and you're ignorant.

 

Just because there's lots of them doesn't mean they're OP, it means they're popular. Also there is a mirror. This is a problem of faction imbalance more than anything. People like shooting lightning out of their hands and having "MORE POWAAA" because of the lore and the usage of the class in the movies, nothing more.

 

The fact that there's a ton of them makes them seem OP because they're everywhere, sometimes the majority of a WZ.

 

Stop confusing faction imbalance with OPness.

 

It's not about being unoriginal. Sometimes the truth is obvious and thus gets repeated cuz it's true.

 

truth. i love how people blame bioware for this... so they made a really cool class. not their fault and they didnt do it on purpose. I think instead of getting rid of the warm up times for sages they should just add it to the sorcs. that is the only imbalance and it isnt much, just ad all the start up times to the abilities dont take them away it adds to having skill an knowing your abilities.