Taugrim's "Iron Fist" 25/14/2 PVP Tank Spec [Video]

[taugrimtaugrim]

So I'm almost fully geared in BM and have all 3 sets of champ gear for the Vanguard. I wrote earlier comparing CP and IF but I wanted to share some of my gameplay experiences as IF fully geared and going against organized/geared rep & imp teams in WZs.

 

I went for super commando set up with dps mods due to the storm 1.5 sec cooldown. Since your more of a melee than a ranged spec getting to a target and staying on them is important. You spec'd 21 in shield spec for storm so may as well maximize it, and I try to use it as an additional interrupt whenever I can. It helps locking down casters/rooting/moving from point A to B. Super Commando/IF spec for huttball is pretty amazing in my opinion.

 

The 5% damage you get is pretty helpful. Stockstrike crits range from 2.7-3.2k for me with BF, Relic, Power Adrenal. Haven't had a chance to see how it would do with expertise buff. I do miss the 15% increase to SS from Combat tech set but my crit is already high enough that the 5% damage is more beneficial in creating a higher sustained damage.

 

Burst if you manage to string a couple of crits in a row is very good. HIB hits for me around 2.8-3.0k but 15 sec cooldown, and if you manage to get 2 stock strike crits in a row, followed by an ion pulse crit you'll put the hurt down. Bad news is you blew through quite a bit of your ammo and unless recharge cells is up you'll be hammer shotting for awhile.

 

The longer a fight lasts and if the side has good healers the less effective IF becomes due to ammo issues. You have to be careful when and how you want to burst/burn down. You see that healer? You burn him/her down you'll most likely be out of the fight for awhile in regards to dps b/c you spent too much ammo where as CP can "usually" keep going.

 

As IF any tracer/grav round BH is automatic win for you.

 

As IF if you pop 25% damage shield your not gonna go down while its up.

 

Great stuff as always.

 

You can still hit 300k damage in voidstar as IF against geared teams provided you use pulse canon and mortar volley.

 

Yea. I typically am top 3 in damage in VS. The only guildees I can't out-DPS are a BM-geared Scoundrel and a similarly-geared 31-pt tank Shadow.

 

As IF you will feel limited in what you can do in regards to attack abilities. You can't ion pulse spam without burning through ammo. CP you burn a couple of ion pulses to proc for HIB and you'll gain an ammo, get stunned/knocked back/etc. get another ammo.

 

This week I got the 4-pc Champ Eliminator set and have been doing some testing. PCS does help with mana management noticeably. I've gone back and forth on PCS as a talent but I'm back to feeling that it's a worthwhile talent.

 

With the new changes in 1.1.5 CP loses its advantage with IR due to dots not breaking objective capping and with the 3 sec activation time for speeders on left/right turrets staying alive is even more important.

 

IR will still be useful for opening up HIB from > 10m, but as you said DoT-based abilities will not be as significant in the 1.1.5+ world.

[taugrimtaugrim]

With the upcoming change that will cause damage over time effects to no longer interrupt WZ objective captures, do you anticipate dropping Gut from your spec? I rarely use this ability now and it seems like it will be even less useful if this change goes through in 1.1.5.

 

Yes, I will drop Gut from the spec. Haven't decided where that point should go.

 

Probably either Blaster Augs or Smoke Grenade. I've said before that BA's 8% increase to the tank cell proc damage isn't that much, but there are no options that scream "take me".

[TronP]

Yes, I will drop Gut from the spec. Haven't decided where that point should go.

 

Probably either Blaster Augs or Smoke Grenade. I've said before that BA's 8% increase to the tank cell proc damage isn't that much, but there are no options that scream "take me".

 

I can't figure out a replacement for Gut. PvP gear has a ton of accuracy on it. On the Dev tracker its been said they were "too" generous with accuracy making smoke grenade less than ideal. Blaster Augs is about the only other alternative I can think of, but I think I will still keep Gut. Its still another dot that will allow you to use HIB. You will not always have 100% uptime on a target Gut allows you to keep "some" sustained dps going. Sometimes even while dying that dot will finish the opponent off for you.

 

I definitely miss PCS it gets a bad rap but with the mass amounts of knockback/knock downs/stuns if you are low on ammo chances are you are pressuring a healer or other enemy and are getting peeled refilling your ammo bar. Like I said as CP you can continue to put out pressure dps you can't do the same as IF if you've burned down a target already.

 

I still believe your IF build will be the one to go with rated WZs since dots no longer affect capping objectives. Staying alive and buying time for respawners will be more important, carrying the huttball and finding an open person/crossing the goal line.

 

CP is great but the 3 talent points in soldiers endurance, superheated plasma, and useless 2 piece bonus from Eliminator set, along with reduced harpoon/riot strike, 4% damage mitigation, and 30% crit bonus damage on SS is pretty substantial.

 

Looking forward to seeing you in Cross realm WZs Taug.

[WNxAres]

Hey thanks for the awesome build. I was wondering, do you have a certain rotation you like? Or is it just hit [insert one or two powers] and wing it?

[Savish]

Yes, I will drop Gut from the spec. Haven't decided where that point should go.

 

Probably either Blaster Augs or Smoke Grenade. I've said before that BA's 8% increase to the tank cell proc damage isn't that much, but there are no options that scream "take me".

 

What about moving some points around to max charge!, seems like that would be a great talent to have in huttball at the very least 1 point in there seems better then either of those talents.

[Rocco_]

love the spec and its what i been building towards on my PT, but i do have a question,

 

why not also get in 2 points of ''battering ram''? as most of your damage is coming from stokestrike, wouldn't it be more feasible to get SS to proc as much as possible?

 

im going to try it sooner or later i just want to know your thoughts.

[taugrimtaugrim]

why not also get in 2 points of ''battering ram''? as most of your damage is coming from stokestrike, wouldn't it be more feasible to get SS to proc as much as possible?

 

im going to try it sooner or later i just want to know your thoughts.

 

You could, but the question is where would you get the extra 3 points to invest 17 in the middle tree?

[taugrimtaugrim]

Updated the spec per 1.1.5, replacing Gut (Retractable Blade) with Blaster Augs (Prototype Cylinders):

Powertech: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGb0RroMZMsrrZb.1

Vanguard: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GRGb0RroMZMsrrZb.1

[Rocco_]

You could, but the question is where would you get the extra 3 points to invest 17 in the middle tree?

 

2 points from static field? and one from static surge? i can live with losing 15% crit damage for more procs on the attack, and static field is useless if you cant A) be in range of the attacker and B) only be attacked by one person

[taugrimtaugrim]

2 points from static field? and one from static surge? i can live with losing 15% crit damage for more procs on the attack, and static field is useless if you cant A) be in range of the attacker and B) only be attacked by one person

 

The 2 points in Static Field are part of the 15 points to unlock the 4th tier of talents.

 

And I would most definitely not drop point(s) in Static Field, given that Surge is harder to come by via stats. The 30% Crit Bonus damage, on top of the +45% Chance to Crit from 4-pc and talents, synergize together terrifically.

[Jachen]

Am i reading it wrong or is all that you would gain (in the context of an iron fist build) from battering ram be a 30% chance of a free stock strike (not an extra stock strike proc) for 15 seconds every time you use ion pulse?

 

If so the talent seems pretty mediocre and not really worth reaching for, in fact only really useful if you had 31 points in tactics and got the 100% free stockstrike after using fire pulse.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Jachen

[Rocco_]

The 2 points in Static Field are part of the 15 points to unlock the 4th tier of talents.

 

And I would most definitely not drop point(s) in Static Field, given that Surge is harder to come by via stats. The 30% Crit Bonus damage, on top of the +45% Chance to Crit from 4-pc and talents, synergize together terrifically.

 

i was re-checking the the talents and found that i had miss read the tooltip for battering ram, i thought that it proc it to skip the CD, i was wrong and it only makes it ''free'' meaning that it has no resource cost, bad times its ruined my life

[Glimmerstrike]

So after having something similar to this spec for a long time I was disappointed to see that it was being broadcast and would eventually become the next fotm. So I went out and discovered another spec. One where I can achieve 50k protection and 300k damage and 5k hits all in the same match. So I would like to politely ask that when you eventually figure it out, and inevitably broadcast it to everyone and their brother, don't call it something lame.

 

So my guildie just suggested that the new spec should be called "the Peking Duck"

 

 

I'd go with an Indian name; Chief Ibenzoverandsqueelzalot

[wargonglok]

why no points in ceramic plating?

 

what does absorptiona ctually do? it seems like it would be pretty helpful, you absorb damage adn don't take it right?

 

 

are there just not enough points for ceramic plating?

[Atracin]

why no points in ceramic plating?

 

what does absorptiona ctually do? it seems like it would be pretty helpful, you absorb damage adn don't take it right?

 

 

are there just not enough points for ceramic plating?

 

You have enough points for ceramic plating:

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/trooper/vanguard/#::f4efefe3f4ef3e3fe5fefefe3fe2f4ef13:

The above is what I run now. I skipped the Steely Resolve because with even full Cent gear, I have around 98% aim. That's more than enough.

 

Going into 1.2, I'm interested to see if this build will still work (and if other builds like the ones listed in Yojacks thread and the Carolina Parakeet will still work). Although I'm pretty sure the Carolina Parakeet build is dead in 1.2.

[taugrimtaugrim]

why no points in ceramic plating?

 

what does absorptiona ctually do? it seems like it would be pretty helpful, you absorb damage adn don't take it right?

 

 

are there just not enough points for ceramic plating?

 

Read this to understand how avoidance and mitigation (armor based, shielding) work:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

[Cheeseblaster]

Just hit Lvl 50 last night (well actually early this morning And have your IF spec right now.

 

In reading through your guide on Vangaurd you mention getting the 4pc Combat Tech set if running IF. In some of the other gear descriptions you mention swapping out Tank mods for DPS ones. Do you still do that with IF + Combat Tech as well?

 

I hit 50 faster than I realized so I was only able to get 4 bags once I hit 50 (1 stashed +3 after 50). Looks like I may have to buy piece by piece. But I want to know whether to plan on swapping out the mods in IF as well....

 

Thanks!

[Briqs]

would you recommend this spec for someone who plays with a healer that they need to guard and protect a lot of the time or do you think a more tank oriented spec is necessary?

[taugrimtaugrim]

would you recommend this spec for someone who plays with a healer that they need to guard and protect a lot of the time or do you think a more tank oriented spec is necessary?

 

This spec works for solo or group queuing. Any tank spec is not optimal for 1v1s.

 

A more "tank-oriented" spec is going to give you meager returns due to the limitations with the Shield mechanic.

[Ellentar]

I would like to contest the idea that this spec offers roughly the same survivability as a tankier Shield spec.

 

I had been running a Shield spec with Rebraced Armor (+16% Armor), Smoke Grenade, full Counter-Attack (+10% Shield) and Ceramic Plating (+6% Absorb if I remember correctly plus cooldown on Adrenaline Rush).

 

After switching to IronFist spec I felt like going splat in half the time I did with my Shield Spec.

 

I am NOT contesting the math behind the defense mechanics as we know them. I am simply offering some feedback based on _Experience_. Also, I am unable to isolate which of the Shield skills made the difference, as I am sure that some of them are indeed uninspiring. Taken together though they really do the trick.

 

Very important note: I am not advocating Shield spec as 'better' overall than IronFist. I did earn more medals with IronFist, for one. I am simply contesting the idea that IronFist is 'as tanky as Shield, but with more DPS'. This is simply not true, based on my own experience.

 

Therefore, if for some reason you wish to play a Tank in PvP, do not take as granted the notion that you just have to go hybrid like evryone else. You don't have to. Go full Shield spec and you will be around longer to interrupt objective captures, carry the Huttball or guard your healer. You will not, however, dish out a lot of damage, and you will not get more medals than IronFist.

 

To add two more disclaimers to my long list of those

First, I am Valor 55, so my experience _could_ be different if I was more advanced.

Second, this post is not intended to diminish Taugrim's fantastic work. I am just offering an alternative viewpoint.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ellentar

[Danapa]

Everybody seems to think that shield and defense its useless in pvp yet they still running with ion cell and a tank offhand if its so useless why not running with a dps offhand? ive spended millions of credits changing specs i have all the BM sets and with suppercommando with defense mods rebraced armor etc you last longer i run a iron fist spec with rebraced armor and defensive stuff in full BM defensive gear 20k hp and defensive pvp relics adrenals stim etc and my stockstrike crits for 2.5k on soft targets the dps loss isnt that much compared to the defense you get when i go shield relic reactive shield armor adrenal adrenaline rush and rakata medpack im virtually invincible no matter how many there are i have won 2 vs1 against marauders assasins etc with Cooldowns i last a lot more than when i was wearing combat tech's set and if you dont believe me try it yourself here is some screen good damage good protection with defensive gear and talents http://tinypic.com/r/6z7z83/5 Edited March 26, 2012 by Danapa

[Mordris]

Everybody seems to think that shield and defense its useless in pvp yet they still running with ion cell and a tank offhand if its so useless why not running with a dps offhand? ive spended millions of credits changing specs i have all the BM sets and with suppercommando with defense mods rebraced armor etc you last longer i run a iron fist spec with rebraced armor and defensive stuff in full BM defensive gear 20k hp and defensive pvp relics adrenals stim etc and my stockstrike crits for 2.5k on soft targets the dps loss isnt that much compared to the defense you get when i go shield relic reactive shield armor adrenal adrenaline rush and rakata medpack im virtually invincible no matter how many there are i have won 2 vs1 against marauders assasins etc with Cooldowns i last a lot more than when i was wearing combat tech's set and if you dont believe me try it yourself here is some screen good damage good protection with defensive gear and talents http://tinypic.com/r/6z7z83/5

 

It's not useless, just useless against half of the attacks against you. And if like me, you run up against a lot of groups with large amounts of Tech and force damage coming at you, mitigation is more valuable than shielding.

 

I've done the same as you, trying out both sides. I've found that Iron Fist (or the slight variation I use) is giving some more damage output while maintaining good mitigation and value to the team.

 

As far as the offhand, I kept switching to test and the difference to damage was minute, so I sport the shield for the endurance and shielding against ranged and melee attacks while running in Ion Cell, more for the mitigation it gives and ability to guard a player, rather than the shielding effect.

 

It really comes down to what your play-style is and what you have fun doing. If the spec you've found works well and you enjoy it, no reason to change because someone says theirs is "better".

[taugrimtaugrim]

Very important note: I am not advocating Shield spec as 'better' overall than IronFist. I did earn more medals with IronFist, for one. I am simply contesting the idea that IronFist is 'as tanky as Shield, but with more DPS'. This is simply not true, based on my own experience.

 

Iron Fist is not as tanky as going full defensive spec. If you want maximum survivability, then spec'ing into every talent in the tank tree and using the SuperCommando set will do that for you.

 

The tradeoff in doing so is you lose a significant amount of damage capability and points in the other trees.

 

People should spec/gear to whatever suits them. I provided Iron Fist as an offensive / control tank spec with good durability, not max durability. That last part is the key.

[taugrimtaugrim]

It's not useless, just useless against half of the attacks against you. And if like me, you run up against a lot of groups with large amounts of Tech and force damage coming at you, mitigation is more valuable than shielding.

 

I've done the same as you, trying out both sides. I've found that Iron Fist (or the slight variation I use) is giving some more damage output while maintaining good mitigation and value to the team.

 

As far as the offhand, I kept switching to test and the difference to damage was minute, so I sport the shield for the endurance and shielding against ranged and melee attacks while running in Ion Cell, more for the mitigation it gives and ability to guard a player, rather than the shielding effect.

 

It really comes down to what your play-style is and what you have fun doing. If the spec you've found works well and you enjoy it, no reason to change because someone says theirs is "better".

 

Exactly.

[Ellentar]

Iron Fist is not as tanky as going full defensive spec. If you want maximum survivability, then spec'ing into every talent in the tank tree and using the SuperCommando set will do that for you.

 

The tradeoff in doing so is you lose a significant amount of damage capability and points in the other trees.

 

People should spec/gear to whatever suits them. I provided Iron Fist as an offensive / control tank spec with good durability, not max durability. That last part is the key.

 

You did brilliantly.

 

People should indeed spec/gear to whatever suits them. You give one suggestion, I give another, noone is shoving anything down anyone's throat, that is preety clear and goes without saying, I hope.

 

I will write again that I do not intend to diminish your guide or suggest that full Shield is 'better' but I want people who like the idea of tanking to know that they have that option. Why? Because misconceptions about this seem to keep propagating.

 

Take this recent thread for example:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=369970

Second post already says:

<<You have pretty much the same survivability as a DPS as you do a shield spec. The difference is the amount of DPS you sacrifice as a tank/shield spec. So why give up DPS for the same amount of survivability? >>

 

This needs to be myth-busted.

 

Again, I think _you_ are pretty clear and consistent on how you perceive the IF spec. A lot of people aren't. Assume that this is directed at them.