Setanian Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 TOTAL SAMPLE: 504 FOR COURTESY LOOTING: 387 face_hindu Dargen Halofax Chasted thecoffeecup GamerInDallas Kalthorine FerrusPA mayjin BourbonDingo Mathakar Holron Gohlar gangbot Shinavast utio carnalraven Darthneubauer Lanowin sotaka Berronaxftw plosky Saber_Six Mineria RachelAnne Marcato HexHammer Warlocc Alohen iceperson bboudreaux Apax Vlaxitov falkerman DarthMoord Ecclesiarch crazysam Zortezurtek OBLCDiomedes Sithmud MrLeeNO gurugeorge killa_kiaba Vervain_CC TheCapz pinksock rzrknight RWScissors Kozzmozz T-rollin Pokerface CANOFOWNAGE Attaraxia LogicalPremise EternalFinality Kabjat Chosenxeno Acererak Femmefatality cipero rarianrakista areto Prolapse Leporello tcalusine AlySedai Silvaro Verthiz PassionVsPeace RycheMykola Felioats alkanterah SunwindIon Your_Ad_Here Dstackm Caonimah Cancrizans Valin_Thren Taggardwarf Frostbird Unruhe RagnarokJC DarkoDon Krondorf ScapeGoats Esauru Karzi moonraker_jones Idah stuw Varghjerta msdixi Kalkaii OldBenSmokin Idunhavaname MasterKayote Slteath red_travis GraingerX Darkshadow Darekar profaneascension Kaphik inquisitorshadow Rooksx Four_Leaf_Clover hushia Suzina Solusrath Bionixx ML_DoubleTap Mazikeen jontyld Maccaroth Jedi_Wannabe Scar AibaTakaya Light_Valkyrie Nightfox_ DJavelin Innoe CBGB raidyr Siyko MrTijger Explosive_Lasers Laerune Sufran IceManLoneWolf daddymoofle Everi Seifz Oghier nezroy Seattlite dtim SoulstitchMMO Keihryon Sabretalon marshmellowdude TheSwamper Kourage cdstephen Raelstrom Naduri Hajizan Nicain Darth_Pants Dignam Slurmez corbanite jsdcaedus tarrmar DeathDiciple Brakner alanhurst Krummwalker atroav StevenStarkill Calsetes ChicksDigHarleys Cerion kifa Thradar Kirska Xabana Loreki Qilz Lady_Alyria JustTed Mhorham Erevan_Kindelar Sleekit Gungan Lhuna WFSWTOR uniz eightohfive Talorya JediMasterShake Vendril Lazorous Galbatorrix Ratall Barracudastr VicSkimmr Canuck_TwnTNN Kthx Massimoto Vlacke Daedricshots Grygost Logiick Norumaniac Raximillian wanderica LeonidasSith apetooman Ruuprect Magnijung Malpracticex Giondi Memo_ ivanhedgehog hardicon TheHeadCapper a_coathanger Ansultares Thistlejack Barzarel RayneDancer Vitellius Fiachsidhe Daemonjax Orisai thorizdin Vintal OrbitalDecay Dirtybomb Sardoodledom BladeStrike Cubanito- dipstik Blackavaar mphill MJHoyle Gereon PalawaJoko Jedlosson testingnorman GetPloughed RudeDog Trenyc stavag DavesTheName blargness FalcoLombardi Soulchilde Rodanth_The_Wise DigitalPrime Suzina Saurakk SgtFrog Evilpuppy Shikiru Kinrain Wakow Lizarduz ratfanatic Zhothon JimG Kalfear SithZigg MRSA justahdude MWidowmaker Blackardin Marmerus AaronPenick GellonSW nobadee TYGRHobbes Sodella TheRealDestian Surefiremm keltonz Pathlight- Jigsaw-Complex Murdah Tygranir Aleoi Grecanis Qeuzolt Meiu AlphaBraddox Bobiefatt JHoltJHolt SpikeRosered BegaTasty TonyACT Sulvan Azurewind Tevax ryancwn DariuszPol haXwk Tourette Technotica pokstair Umbral Rollcageuk JohraTon SySnootles DarthSublimitas Backbones Mentoza Black_Rabbit Irusan SkateOnTrees Truga kalexkhan PeterMAbraham owlinspace Edryk Twazzock Ancaglon The_Archon SorrowOVtheNight warpedlogic havok_bloodcraft Valcutio Atamosk Spartanik Thordar Loendar Kindara Razot Sousukesama DrunkenGundark Borntoride realID ClyntKeelan StonySpider Senatsu Jayvenger bejay Zeodic Vessi mattofthekidd ThassiusUK Vahn_Sanji Endunie suroktheslayer Broom Sunspots Smoky_the_Bear Absimillard LuthirFontaine MandoArc Tsaritsin Redderic Neptunius Soultranna Gragus Admoniter BinxDarkstar Saberlost ApLJack Annikhan teddy_bear CeiLican Halinalle JaggidEdje LasCruces areto DarthKhaos Garravesh MaxonJaxon illgot xDagurasu Dizzident Dartagon LifeOfMessiah Zaskaszh DarthNemis Hebrind Ronamo Mogyoon viith GavinRuneblade perato ZDProletariat dcgregorya Wraiven Faulhaber iheartnyc Marb Ariadna joriandrake PsilosLon Funus Irxyyy CptBrit Jellison PANZERBUNNY Darth_Nox Malabaricus AGAINST COURTESY LOOTING: 117 Bearaids snooggums Picoom Delekii SnoggyMack United_Strafes Propanelgen Setanian RealAeiouy Ecinev Trisskar rfatcheric infernus_uk Heggs Evilidea antiphobic Catch_TwentyTwo maxetius Vydor_HC romandaemon Tokeee Kemorand Gerandar Skaara Tsillah Aisar CygnusMX Dyltron Genesizs VanorDM Pythoris BigBadEdward Ghaiana acheros Brool Jetsunz itekazzawrrlic Zebular _Rammie_ Xabos Mr_Crueak pocketthesaurus Fredcat CommanderFrog Bystandard Anzel Urgas Lightsanchor Deathstrike Havokk ThiborF daemian GnatB Vonkong Soul_of_Flames Sprite Darkness_au Descento timewatch Viera Tal-N Gehoornde akma Jimudthesecond Jaerin Chuckskyline Eldren zandadoum ferroz chton ispanolfw owenthorn sfthirteen Qoaa Creed_Buhallin Gomuningen Schnerf Busukaba AsheraII Ashes_One stivius Liquid_Drano RazielHex coffeerox Phaydrane Belbullab Sai-to Zannis TucoR Furiso kirorx Trushott Tadshackles apantoliani Democratus Leiloni BenjaminminU Kaphik dargor- terminova Khbaal boobaffet Diabloplayer Spymaster Ambrogino LadyAzurith desertwolph Talkative ArtMonster GeekNius madmikeyb Obus crica svenholio _Ender__Wiggin_ xmercxrayx Derbefrier Sampled from the two largest current threads on the issue. Anybody have a problem with the data, or if I misrepresented your position, please let me know. So you have a list of 3:1 showing there were 3:1 posters in favor of what? From memory, some were in favor of communicate before hand, some had other ideas, and even others had more ideas. If you're going to throw statistic about, I'd like to know how you compiled them. I will certainly allow that there is a 3:1 in favor of telling other players how they should roll. How-ever, that in itself means nothing. because at the end of the day, you can produce 1million to 1 and I will still roll how I choose to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
face_hindu Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 If you have to ask, you've simply confirmed that you do, indeed, know absolutely nothing about statistical methods. But for your benefit: Trying to extrapolate the state of a large group from a small sample is meaningless if your sample is not properly selected. So you are saying that the majority of posters who have posted a strong opinion on this issue are in favour of "Need on whatever you want"? I don't know what you're trying to say, because you haven't said anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loendar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Ah. but from this side that's what it sounds like. You want to roll pass or greed and have me agree with you and roll the same. Just because you want to pass or greed does not infer I have to. And you have no right to say otherwise. You are ascribing some weird morale high-ground to my choice where none exists. There is no martyrdom occuring here other than in your misinformed interpretation. I want gear for my toon AND I want my groupmates to have gear for their toons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I am simply trying to persuade you and others to please stop and think a little longer before you roll need. No, you are trying to argue that your way is inherently morally and ethically superior to others, because you constantly use words like respect and selfish, to describe the two sides. You clearly are using words to describe each group, that imply a given group is better in a moral sense then the other... Unless you are going to try and argue that calling someone or their actions as selfish, is not making a moral statement and judgement. I believe in equality, in that if I find the item useful to my character, I have the right to roll need on it, just like everyone else. You on the other hand feel the need to force additional rules on the system, to decide who's desire for the item has greater weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
face_hindu Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 How-ever, that in itself means nothing. because at the end of the day, you can produce 1million to 1 and I will still roll how I choose to. Yes you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Your method greatly diminishes their potential reward in favor of your own. No it does not. Please stop asserting this false allegation. It is false. Fact not opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
face_hindu Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No it does not. Please stop asserting this false allegation. It is false. Fact not opinion. Setanian refuses to entertain this analogy. If we run a FP and a great upgrade drops for you, Sith Marauder, you're in luck with a group running under 'don't roll for items that upgrade another teammate's class more than yours.' You have a 100% chance of improving (assuming no other Marauders in the group). Under 'Press Need for anything, even for items that don't upgrade your primary stats,' your odds drop to 50% when I roll. In this case, the reason I roll - I like the look, I'm short on cash, I want to give it to my companion's girlfriend - doesn't matter, but it's clear that it does not improve my primary abilities. In two runs with drops perfectly suited to each of us, we go from a perfect chance to both upgrade to half as likely, and by half again when others roll, too. That 'greedy' team will end up weaker than the considerate one. Do you really want to cut the chance of improving my heals by 75%? Under my suggestion, every player has an equal chance at drops in a run. They simply have a greater chance of getting drops for their class. Is that clear? I'm not asking for a special claim on Marauder or Powertech or Sorceror items with my Agent - you have priority when those items drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loendar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Telling someone that their way of playing is inferior to yours is not respectful of others. Is it maximally beneficial to the team's ability to progress if someone takes an item for looks instead of stats? No, it's not. But pursuing that maximal benefit is not the only way to respect others in the group. Personally, I do my best to make sure everyone enjoys their time in the game as much as possible. That means that if looks are important to my wife, and stats are important to you, then you get an even chance to get that item and the dice will decide it, and we press on and deal with the content that comes next. That's how you respect other players, not this twisted view of forcing maximal effective stat progression down their throats whether they like it or not. I've never said they are inferior. To each their own. I do feel strongly that needing on everything for all aspects of your character over another real player is morally bankrupt in a social game - but I don't think they are inferior. Just ill-informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 You are ascribing some weird morale high-ground to my choice where none exists. There is no martyrdom occuring here other than in your misinformed interpretation. I want gear for my toon AND I want my groupmates to have gear for their toons. So play the right way. Need on what you need. Why do you keep bringing up straw man arguments to confuse the issue? On one hand you want an equal right, which you already have, and on the other you are asking us to not to need on what we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loendar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Who are you claiming does this? What statements indicate otherwise? Can you quote one of mine? Pretty sure I quoted the person I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I've never said they are inferior. To each their own. I do feel strongly that needing on everything for all aspects of your character over another real player is morally bankrupt in a social game - but I don't think they are inferior. Just ill-informed. How can it be ill-informed? Ill-informed means not to know something or to have bad information. I know, I don't have bad information. I know each of the 4 players get to roll, they choose how. Which part am I ill-informed about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
face_hindu Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 So play the right way. Need on what you need. Why do you keep bringing up straw man arguments to confuse the issue? On one hand you want an equal right, which you already have, and on the other you are asking us to not to need on what we want. At the very least, if you're going to continue posting, please be constructive and quit bullying people, please. Please give us some constructive ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creed_Buhallin Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 So you are saying that the majority of posters who have posted a strong opinion on this issue are in favour of "Need on whatever you want"? I don't know what you're trying to say, because you haven't said anything. Do I need to give a statistics class here? Fine. Sample selection is one of the most critical tasks in the proper application of statistical modeling. It must be properly random and free of bias, or any attempt to extrapolate the state of the group at large will be invalid. There are a great many things which can corrupt a sample: self-selection (i.e. asking for volunteers) is a prime one. Sample restriction (i.e. selecting your sample from a smaller sample, rather than the whole group) is another. Pretty much at the top of the list is laying out a honeypot to draw people in, followed right behind an environment with coercive intimidation. Guess what? Your thread count has all of them. You're looking at a sample drawn from an already tiny subsample (the forum), which used an emotional honeypot to draw people in (thread title) where people were bombarded with intimidation and coercion for disagreeing with your side (blacklist threats, give me your server/character name, insults and name-calling) and then counted only people who chose to respond. In short, you'd get laughed out of the first week of an undergrad stats class with something like that. I'm sure it makes you feel better to spend all that time counting people who agree with you and think it means something (that's called confirmation bias) but in the grand view of analyzing the broader community, it's not just meaningless, it's outright lies and propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 My entire method of loot distribution supports respect for other players and the investment they make in grouping with me.No, it doesn't. It shows 0 respect for any other player who has different priorities than you do. Your method greatly diminishes their potential reward in favor of your own.No, it really doesn't change their potential reward. Their potential remains exactly the same. Potentially they can win every drop in the flashpoint. My way give everyone the exact same chance of reward instead of favoring people with a specific loot priority. It's about fairness. Just because you CAN roll any anything doesn't make it 'more fair' unless everyone is doing it for the same reasons.Wrong. "you can roll for anything you want" is more fair than "you can not roll for things you want because someone else has an arbitrary rule based on priorities that that you don't agree with." It doesn't matter whether everyone choose to exercise their right; the fairness is all about choice and whether you choose to exercise that choice or not, it's more fair to have it than not to have it. You are imposing your beliefs on the group as solidly as anyone else in this thread and the sooner you realize that your way benefits you a lot more than anyone else the sooner you can join a social game.No, I don't impose any of my beliefs on anyone. They're free to need or greed as they want. They just don't get to impose their belief's on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loendar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No it does not. Please stop asserting this false allegation. It is false. Fact not opinion. If I roll need only on items that directly improve my character (not companion, not for looks) while YOU roll on everything for any reason - you will get more items over time. That is a fact. How you can't grasp that rolling 100x vs. 10x is going to give you more is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispanolfw Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 TOTAL SAMPLE: 504 FOR COURTESY LOOTING: 387 face_hindu Dargen Halofax Chasted thecoffeecup GamerInDallas Kalthorine FerrusPA mayjin BourbonDingo Mathakar Holron Gohlar gangbot Shinavast utio carnalraven Darthneubauer Lanowin sotaka Berronaxftw plosky Saber_Six Mineria RachelAnne Marcato HexHammer Warlocc Alohen iceperson bboudreaux Apax Vlaxitov falkerman DarthMoord Ecclesiarch crazysam Zortezurtek OBLCDiomedes Sithmud MrLeeNO gurugeorge killa_kiaba Vervain_CC TheCapz pinksock rzrknight RWScissors Kozzmozz T-rollin Pokerface CANOFOWNAGE Attaraxia LogicalPremise EternalFinality Kabjat Chosenxeno Acererak Femmefatality cipero rarianrakista areto Prolapse Leporello tcalusine AlySedai Silvaro Verthiz PassionVsPeace RycheMykola Felioats alkanterah SunwindIon Your_Ad_Here Dstackm Caonimah Cancrizans Valin_Thren Taggardwarf Frostbird Unruhe RagnarokJC DarkoDon Krondorf ScapeGoats Esauru Karzi moonraker_jones Idah stuw Varghjerta msdixi Kalkaii OldBenSmokin Idunhavaname MasterKayote Slteath red_travis GraingerX Darkshadow Darekar profaneascension Kaphik inquisitorshadow Rooksx Four_Leaf_Clover hushia Suzina Solusrath Bionixx ML_DoubleTap Mazikeen jontyld Maccaroth Jedi_Wannabe Scar AibaTakaya Light_Valkyrie Nightfox_ DJavelin Innoe CBGB raidyr Siyko MrTijger Explosive_Lasers Laerune Sufran IceManLoneWolf daddymoofle Everi Seifz Oghier nezroy Seattlite dtim SoulstitchMMO Keihryon Sabretalon marshmellowdude TheSwamper Kourage cdstephen Raelstrom Naduri Hajizan Nicain Darth_Pants Dignam Slurmez corbanite jsdcaedus tarrmar DeathDiciple Brakner alanhurst Krummwalker atroav StevenStarkill Calsetes ChicksDigHarleys Cerion kifa Thradar Kirska Xabana Loreki Qilz Lady_Alyria JustTed Mhorham Erevan_Kindelar Sleekit Gungan Lhuna WFSWTOR uniz eightohfive Talorya JediMasterShake Vendril Lazorous Galbatorrix Ratall Barracudastr VicSkimmr Canuck_TwnTNN Kthx Massimoto Vlacke Daedricshots Grygost Logiick Norumaniac Raximillian wanderica LeonidasSith apetooman Ruuprect Magnijung Malpracticex Giondi Memo_ ivanhedgehog hardicon TheHeadCapper a_coathanger Ansultares Thistlejack Barzarel RayneDancer Vitellius Fiachsidhe Daemonjax Orisai thorizdin Vintal OrbitalDecay Dirtybomb Sardoodledom BladeStrike Cubanito- dipstik Blackavaar mphill MJHoyle Gereon PalawaJoko Jedlosson testingnorman GetPloughed RudeDog Trenyc stavag DavesTheName blargness FalcoLombardi Soulchilde Rodanth_The_Wise DigitalPrime Suzina Saurakk SgtFrog Evilpuppy Shikiru Kinrain Wakow Lizarduz ratfanatic Zhothon JimG Kalfear SithZigg MRSA justahdude MWidowmaker Blackardin Marmerus AaronPenick GellonSW nobadee TYGRHobbes Sodella TheRealDestian Surefiremm keltonz Pathlight- Jigsaw-Complex Murdah Tygranir Aleoi Grecanis Qeuzolt Meiu AlphaBraddox Bobiefatt JHoltJHolt SpikeRosered BegaTasty TonyACT Sulvan Azurewind Tevax ryancwn DariuszPol haXwk Tourette Technotica pokstair Umbral Rollcageuk JohraTon SySnootles DarthSublimitas Backbones Mentoza Black_Rabbit Irusan SkateOnTrees Truga kalexkhan PeterMAbraham owlinspace Edryk Twazzock Ancaglon The_Archon SorrowOVtheNight warpedlogic havok_bloodcraft Valcutio Atamosk Spartanik Thordar Loendar Kindara Razot Sousukesama DrunkenGundark Borntoride realID ClyntKeelan StonySpider Senatsu Jayvenger bejay Zeodic Vessi mattofthekidd ThassiusUK Vahn_Sanji Endunie suroktheslayer Broom Sunspots Smoky_the_Bear Absimillard LuthirFontaine MandoArc Tsaritsin Redderic Neptunius Soultranna Gragus Admoniter BinxDarkstar Saberlost ApLJack Annikhan teddy_bear CeiLican Halinalle JaggidEdje LasCruces areto DarthKhaos Garravesh MaxonJaxon illgot xDagurasu Dizzident Dartagon LifeOfMessiah Zaskaszh DarthNemis Hebrind Ronamo Mogyoon viith GavinRuneblade perato ZDProletariat dcgregorya Wraiven Faulhaber iheartnyc Marb Ariadna joriandrake PsilosLon Funus Irxyyy CptBrit Jellison PANZERBUNNY Darth_Nox Malabaricus AGAINST COURTESY LOOTING: 117 Bearaids snooggums Picoom Delekii SnoggyMack United_Strafes Propanelgen Setanian RealAeiouy Ecinev Trisskar rfatcheric infernus_uk Heggs Evilidea antiphobic Catch_TwentyTwo maxetius Vydor_HC romandaemon Tokeee Kemorand Gerandar Skaara Tsillah Aisar CygnusMX Dyltron Genesizs VanorDM Pythoris BigBadEdward Ghaiana acheros Brool Jetsunz itekazzawrrlic Zebular _Rammie_ Xabos Mr_Crueak pocketthesaurus Fredcat CommanderFrog Bystandard Anzel Urgas Lightsanchor Deathstrike Havokk ThiborF daemian GnatB Vonkong Soul_of_Flames Sprite Darkness_au Descento timewatch Viera Tal-N Gehoornde akma Jimudthesecond Jaerin Chuckskyline Eldren zandadoum ferroz chton ispanolfw owenthorn sfthirteen Qoaa Creed_Buhallin Gomuningen Schnerf Busukaba AsheraII Ashes_One stivius Liquid_Drano RazielHex coffeerox Phaydrane Belbullab Sai-to Zannis TucoR Furiso kirorx Trushott Tadshackles apantoliani Democratus Leiloni BenjaminminU Kaphik dargor- terminova Khbaal boobaffet Diabloplayer Spymaster Ambrogino LadyAzurith desertwolph Talkative ArtMonster GeekNius madmikeyb Obus crica svenholio _Ender__Wiggin_ xmercxrayx Derbefrier Sampled from the two largest current threads on the issue. Anybody have a problem with the data, or if I misrepresented your position, please let me know. You misrepresented just about everyone in the "Against Courtesy Looting" Box. Possibly the other one too. I'm not against "courtesy" looting. But my view on what is and isn't courteous is clearly different than your own. Even people who might agree with you may differing views on what's courteous or not. For example, most could agree that opening a door for someone is courteous. I only agree partly, when doing so is of use to the person. Like if they had a bunch of things in their hands and likely would have trouble opening it on their own. If not the case that they will have trouble, then why is it courteous to do something they can do themselves? Are you trying to point out they they can't do anything themselves so you have to do it for them? Note i'm not saying this is how you think when you do it, just that it's an example. Another thing this side gets misinterpreted as. We roll on everything because we can. When it's more like the system in place gives everyone who participated an equal chance at the loot. No one owns the item til they actually have it in their inventory. And that one persons view of what constitutes need is no more important than another players. And lastly that if you opinion on how it should work differs from the given system, feel free to speak up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 If I roll need only on items that directly improve my character (not companion, not for looks) while YOU roll on everything for any reason - you will get more items over time. That is a fact.No, it's not a fact. it's quite possible for him to get less items over time. I think you've also got a bad assumption in there. How you can't grasp that rolling 100x vs. 10x is going to give you more is beyond me.Is he actually saying that he's going to roll that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispanolfw Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Which part of your arguments am I not understanding? All of them. None is rooted in commonsense or decency. Welcome to the ignore list. Proper arguments tend to actually leave those two things out since they interfere. Oh I posted a link on that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democratus Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 If I roll need only on items that directly improve my character (not companion, not for looks) while YOU roll on everything for any reason - you will get more items over time. That is a fact. How you can't grasp that rolling 100x vs. 10x is going to give you more is beyond me. That's like saying its unfair that players who play more are higher level than you. You choose what to roll whenever the need/greed interface pops up. Everyone gets the same choice. It's as fair as anything can be. If you make a decision to abdicate your opportunity for an item - that is on you, not others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
face_hindu Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 You misrepresented just about everyone in the "Against Courtesy Looting" Box. Possibly the other one too. I'm not against "courtesy" looting. But my view on what is and isn't courteous is clearly different than your own. What the heck do you keep arguing, genius?! This is the argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Pretty sure I quoted the person I was referring to.ok, so you're not claiming anyone else does that. Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispanolfw Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No, if you look at my comment, I included "arguing for" and "should" in my statements. I am not saying that anyone is forced to play a certain way. On that note, I DO disagree with the original title of this thread - "no, you may not roll" literally is incorrect. We're talking about how people "should" play - or, if that feels too imperative, we're trying to come up with a model of the best way that people can play. There is no best way when opinions are involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gragus Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Oh quit the grief guys, it doesn't matter to me if you need or not! Not that I have done this, but If gear drops that a companion I have can use, why should I care about you! Companions are a focal point of gameplay and not a choice.. <snip> Fine, then take your companion and two of you can go get his or her gear upgrades. If you need other players to help you, players are ALWAYS prioritized over companions for any gear that drops. Are you dense, or just antisocial? Jeez, we have a lot of MMO newbies around here. All the more need to establish loot rules beforehand and boot those who don't follow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creed_Buhallin Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I've never said they are inferior. To each their own. I do feel strongly that needing on everything for all aspects of your character over another real player is morally bankrupt in a social game - but I don't think they are inferior. Just ill-informed. Well, then, my mistake - you're obviously perfectly respectful to everyone you might play with, even the morally bankrupt "fake" players. Don't how how I could have possibly questions your respect for your fellow players. We obviously have VERY different ideas of what's wrong with the MMO community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jontyld Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Do I need to give a statistics class here? Fine. Sample selection is one of the most critical tasks in the proper application of statistical modeling. It must be properly random and free of bias, or any attempt to extrapolate the state of the group at large will be invalid. There are a great many things which can corrupt a sample: self-selection (i.e. asking for volunteers) is a prime one. Sample restriction (i.e. selecting your sample from a smaller sample, rather than the whole group) is another. Pretty much at the top of the list is laying out a honeypot to draw people in, followed right behind an environment with coercive intimidation. Guess what? Your thread count has all of them. You're looking at a sample drawn from an already tiny subsample (the forum), which used an emotional honeypot to draw people in (thread title) where people were bombarded with intimidation and coercion for disagreeing with your side (blacklist threats, give me your server/character name, insults and name-calling) and then counted only people who chose to respond. In short, you'd get laughed out of the first week of an undergrad stats class with something like that. I'm sure it makes you feel better to spend all that time counting people who agree with you and think it means something (that's called confirmation bias) but in the grand view of analyzing the broader community, it's not just meaningless, it's outright lies and propaganda. and all of this is meaningless. He attempted to analyze data from an existing source, he did not attempt to take a random sample for the purposes of an experiment. All that can and should be taken from that data is that out of people who felt the need to express an opinion on this topic on this forum, X were on one side, and Y were on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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