No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[Varghjerta]

.... would be a valid response to that. The game of soccer, or futbol if you want to get technical has rules already in place. I would follow those rules if I played the game. and for things that aren't in the rules, they have Referees that are to be an impartial judge.

 

This game has rules in place. Those rules are not as restrictive as some would like for sure, but they are there. So how is this a valid comparison?

 

Actually what if you play with some friends without a referee ?

[Marb]

I can't believe this point is being debated as much as it has. If an item drops and it's obviously for a certain class, regardless if its modifiable or not, the class that it's for gets first dibs.

 

What is so complicated about this? Do people seriously need on modifiable gear just to strip the mods out?

 

I have no faith in the human race.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Marb

[ispanolfw]

I guess you have never heard of a thing called "law?" Laws are man-made and are enforced by the majority upon others...from basic things like "killing another human being with malice is a crime" to more subtle things like "adultery is a crime" or "pooping in public is a crime."

 

Good thing rolling on something for your companion or for looks isn't against the law.

[iheartnyc]

.... would be a valid response to that. The game of soccer, or futbol if you want to get technical has rules already in place. I would follow those rules if I played the game. and for things that aren't in the rules, they have Referees that are to be an impartial judge.

 

This game has rules in place. Those rules are not as restrictive as some would like for sure, but they are there. So how is this a valid comparison?

 

No, you're wrong. You're missing a nuance between "rules" and "ability." In soccer, there is NOTHING preventing a player from pulling out a gun and shooting the keeper. Nothing. There are rules OUTSIDE OF SOCCER that will punish such behavior, of course. Same with SWTOR, there is NOTHING preventing you from "needing" on stuff you don't need. Unlike soccer, there are currently no laws to punish such behavior. Difference being, IRL, people created such laws to punish wanton murder. In SWTOR, we have not yet.

[ispanolfw]

Actually what if you play with some friends without a referee ?

 

The game of soccer, again, has rules in place. And if I played with friends and we wanted something different from the actual rules of the game, we bring it up, otherwise we play by the rules. No different from this game.

[ispanolfw]

No, you're wrong. You're missing a nuance between "rules" and "ability." In soccer, there is NOTHING preventing a player from pulling out a gun and shooting the keeper. Nothing. There are rules OUTSIDE OF SOCCER that will punish such behavior, of course. Same with SWTOR, there is NOTHING preventing you from "needing" on stuff you don't need. Unlike soccer, there are currently no laws to punish such behavior. Difference being, IRL, people created such laws to punish wanton murder. In SWTOR, we have not yet.

 

And that's the thing, you want to push rules or laws that do not exist in the game, into the game. And I can completely understand why anyone would want that. But the thing is, this is BioWare's game. They make the rules, so I play by their rules being it's their game. So long as i'm not breaking those rules, I'm not really doing anything wrong. I still haven't rolled need in any group i've been in, but I understand I can if I feel something is worth enough to me to do so.

 

So unless BioWare changes the rules in place, the game is as it is. And if they do, I will follow them. And if I feel they go to far I will stop playing, although that would be a rather low chance I would have issues with their rules.

[Gehoornde]

I roll need on anything I can roll need on.

 

I can get away with it since it seems I'm the only healer ever online during my playtime.

[ispanolfw]

I roll need on anything I can roll need on.

 

I can get away with it since it seems I'm the only healer ever online during my playtime.

 

See, I can disagree with this right here. I'm not advocating this.

[iheartnyc]

Good thing rolling on something for your companion or for looks isn't against the law.

 

What you said is completely irrelevant to our line of discourse. See below:

 

"Originally Posted by ispanolfw

In any case, the point still stands, believing one way doesn't give you any right to enforce that way on others."

 

In response to which, I gave you the little lecture on what "law" is. Your response side-steps the issue and attempts to distract, baring no logical relevance to your prior post.

 

Your point: a majority does not have any right to enforce a way on others.

My point: maybe not a natural right, but a legal one that EVERYONE on planet Earth must abide by.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

I guess you have never heard of a thing called "law?" Laws are man-made and are enforced by the majority upon others...from basic things like "killing another human being with malice is a crime" to more subtle things like "adultery is a crime" or "pooping in public is a crime."

 

Dear iheartnyc,

 

Please read pages 49-** of the thread. Think well on the responses made. Revise thought. Profit??

[Varghjerta]

The game of soccer, again, has rules in place. And if I played with friends and we wanted something different from the actual rules of the game, we bring it up, otherwise we play by the rules. No different from this game.

 

So then you do mean that youre friends can enforce some rules on you ?

 

What would happen if you broke the actual rules while playing with youre friends ?

or even what would prevent you from breaking those rules?

 

The answer is nothing only respect for youre friends/players but then on the web you suddenly feel that it is acceptable thing to do

Edited January 30, 2012 by Varghjerta

[iheartnyc]

And that's the thing, you want to push rules or laws that do not exist in the game, into the game. And I can completely understand why anyone would want that. But the thing is, this is BioWare's game. They make the rules, so I play by their rules being it's their game. So long as i'm not breaking those rules, I'm not really doing anything wrong. I still haven't rolled need in any group i've been in, but I understand I can if I feel something is worth enough to me to do so.

 

So unless BioWare changes the rules in place, the game is as it is. And if they do, I will follow them. And if I feel they go to far I will stop playing, although that would be a rather low chance I would have issues with their rules.

 

But you seem to be back-lashing against player enforced rules? Bioware doesn't create rules, but allows Guilds to enforce their own for instance...I'd be happy with a public "shaming" board on the SWTOR forums.

[ispanolfw]

So then you do mean that youre friends can enforce some rules on you ?

 

What would happen if you broke the actual rules while playing with youre friends ?

or even what would prevent you from breaking those rules?

 

The answer is nothing only respect for youre friends/players but then on the web you suddenly feel that it is acceptable thing to do

 

Did you read where we agree upon the rules we put in place ourselves? Just like i've been advocating to those who wish to change the rules already in place should speak up if they want different rules enforced. If all agree, no issue and they get on with the run. If some or most disagree, well they can disband in a method that fits the situation and find different members.

[iheartnyc]

Dear iheartnyc,

 

Please read pages 49-** of the thread. Think well on the responses made. Revise thought. Profit??

 

Yes, I read them. Nothing to revise in my thoughts. I'm happy to have a serious (if dumbed down) discussion on legal theory and history with you if you like. But I don't think some people are grasping the nuance of what rules/laws really are or what they represent. In a vacuum, they supposedly represent the majority viewpoint (which can change) on how to make for a optimal civil society. This applies to both IRL and SWTOR. When the rules are deemed by a majority or a group to be inadequate, protests/fights/debates (such as this) ensue. As a result, the people in power will alter the rules, or if they do nothing, people will resort to grass-roots policing methods (e.g., something as simple as a neighborhood watch, or people gossiping to serve as a disincentive for cheating/adultery).

 

I think a public "shaming" thread that is constantly updated with names will be a good way to police ourselves, if anyone cares that much. I don't care if you need on stuff you don't need, but I do sympathize with those who do.

Edited January 30, 2012 by iheartnyc

[ispanolfw]

But you seem to be back-lashing against player enforced rules? Bioware doesn't create rules, but allows Guilds to enforce their own for instance...I'd be happy with a public "shaming" board on the SWTOR forums.

 

Yes Guilds can say you need to follow these rules or you get removed. Yes a party leader can say this before hand. Yes anyone in the party can express their desire to use more restrictive rules than the game provides. But if those rules are not laid out, and yet you punish the player anyways, what does that make you? You said nothing about looting being contrary to what the game rules give them, but then you punish them for the same thing.

[Varghjerta]

Did you read where we agree upon the rules we put in place ourselves? Just like i've been advocating to those who wish to change the rules already in place should speak up if they want different rules enforced. If all agree, no issue and they get on with the run. If some or most disagree, well they can disband in a method that fits the situation and find different members.

 

Actually what if you dont say anything about the rules from the start ?

Then would you then expect that you could behave as you pleased while playing soccer?

 

Or wold you follow the social guidelines of youre friends

Edited January 30, 2012 by Varghjerta

[ispanolfw]

Yes, I read them. Nothing to revise in my thoughts. I'm happy to have a serious (if dumbed down) discussion on legal theory and history with you if you like. But I don't think some people are grasping the nuance of what rules/laws really are or what they represent. In a vacuum, they supposedly represent the majority viewpoint (which can change) on how to make for a optimal civil society. This applies to both IRL and SWTOR. When the rules are deemed by a majority or a group to be inadequate, protests/fights/debates (such as this) ensue. As a result, the people in power will alter the rules, or if they do nothing, people will resort to grass-roots policing methods (e.g., something as simple as a neighborhood watch, or people gossiping to serve as a disincentive for cheating/adultery).

 

And for real life I can agree, but the problem here is this isn't real life. You have no rights in game. For example, free speech doesn't exist in game. Sure it seems like it, but it doesn't.

[ispanolfw]

Actually what if you dont say anything about the rules from the start ?

Then would you then expect that you could behave as you pleased while playing soccer?

 

Then I would follow the rules of soccer as written.

[Gehoornde]

And for real life I can agree, but the problem here is this isn't real life. You have no rights in game. For example, free speech doesn't exist in game. Sure it seems like it, but it doesn't.

 

This wins the thread. 100% correct.

[iheartnyc]

Yes Guilds can say you need to follow these rules or you get removed. Yes a party leader can say this before hand. Yes anyone in the party can express their desire to use more restrictive rules than the game provides. But if those rules are not laid out, and yet you punish the player anyways, what does that make you? You said nothing about looting being contrary to what the game rules give them, but then you punish them for the same thing.

 

True story: all laws have been legislated RETROACTIVELY. In other words, people had to create laws to prevent people from doing stupid crazy stuff that they should have known they shouldn't be doing in the first place. E.g., **** laws, murder laws, necrophilia laws, *******ity laws...sick stuff that went unchekced for a while. The point is, the enactment of a law preventing such behavior is not what made such acts morally reprehensible to most people...

[Varghjerta]

Then I would follow the rules of soccer as written.

 

Soo then you would assign refeere and have 11 players each then as the rules dictate and have offside rules yellow cards and everything ?

 

If not you do that you actually are following social guidelines you know something you have already said is shouldnt be enforced upon you .

[iheartnyc]

And for real life I can agree, but the problem here is this isn't real life. You have no rights in game. For example, free speech doesn't exist in game. Sure it seems like it, but it doesn't.

 

We can agree to disagree. I'm not someone who spends all day playing games by any means, but I don't see anything wrong with bringing in real life notions of ethics and morality into the game, when the game itself plays off of our sensibilities (light/dark side points) in the choices that it presents. Behind every toon, there is a human being with human thoughts and emotions. MMOs are inherently a form of human interaction.

 

And I guarantee you, if a group of players harassed another player on SWTOR to the extent that such player committed suicide, there would be criminal charges and a lawsuit in real life. So let's not pretend that we are all playing SWTOR in a complete vacuum with zero implications or links to the real world.

[Azurewind]

I can't believe this point is being debated as much as it has. If an item drops and it's obviously for a certain class, regardless if its modifiable or not, the class that it's for gets first dibs.

 

What is so complicated about this? Do people seriously need on modifiable gear just to strip the mods out?

 

I have no faith in the human race.

 

Yeah, excerpt from someone on the previous thread

 

In WoW you simply can't mod your gear. So a rogue rolling on a druid piece was indeed stupid. But that is simply not the case here with ORANGE gear.

Orange gear is ONLY for customization

 

See? They do, in the name of customizability. The argument is that it's OK to ignore the fact that you're also rolling on the mods within the item, because the item allows you to take those mods out, discard them, and replace them with your own, despite the fact they all drop as one piece. In any other game, this would be a greed roll, hands down, no questions asked. You're rolling on the the item as-is.

 

But here people seem to think it's different.

 

In any case, you've got people accusing others of taking a moral high ground, who are subsequently taking one themselves, and twisting the Need/Greed system (that works fine when you lay down the ground rules ahead of time), into one that vilifies people who collectively agree to abide by it's principles.

 

So most of the argument here ends up boiling down into why Need/Greed is bad/good and why a flat roll/pass should be done instead.

 

Honestly it shouldn't even be a debate. A flat roll/pass is perfectly reasonable and should be added...

 

...as an option so parties can easily choose what fits their style best.

 

I hope you guys get what you want and roll/pass is added in as an additional loot option, I really do. That way you form your own parties where everyone has an equal shot at everything that drops, regardless of your class. I totally understand the sentiment.

 

But when Need/Greed is the method of choice, right now, for that particular party, then you have to communicate for 5 minutes before the flashpoint and figure out your policies.

 

But whatever you do, don't silently sulk in the shadows, waiting to impose your personal belief that you're entitled to roll Need on everything that drops, regardless of what it is, simply because you helped.

 

That just isn't how Need/Greed works. It sucks, but if your party has elected to use the system as it was intended, you need to respect that, and leave the party. Find a group of like-minded folks that share your attitudes.

 

Otherwise, you're being incredibly rude. If you can't see this, then a different loot system isn't going to help you.

 

An attitude adjustment will.

 

It's OK to not like something. But don't ruin it for people that do.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Azurewind

[ispanolfw]

True story: all laws have been legislated RETROACTIVELY. In other words, people had to create laws to prevent people from doing stupid crazy stuff that they should have known they shouldn't be doing in the first place. E.g., **** laws, murder laws, necrophilia laws, *******ity laws...sick stuff that went unchekced for a while. The point is, the enactment of a law preventing such behavior is not what made such acts morally reprehensible to most people...

 

I get it, I really do. And I understand why many laws exist. I also disagree with many laws, like for instance Copyright. But that isn't part of the argument here. Inside of this game is not this or that country. It is a world under BioWare's control, just like the world in EVE Online is under CCPs control, and that community would look far worse to you most likely. At least so far as I can see it.

[ispanolfw]

We can agree to disagree. I'm not someone who spends all day playing games by any means, but I don't see anything wrong with bringing in real life notions of ethics and morality into the game, when the game itself plays off of our sensibilities (light/dark side points) in the choices that it presents. Behind every toon, there is a human being with human thoughts and emotions. MMOs are inherently a form of human interaction.

 

And I guarantee you, if a group of players harassed another player on SWTOR to the extent that such player committed suicide, there would be criminal charges and a lawsuit in real life. So let's not pretend that we are all playing SWTOR in a complete vacuum with zero implications or links to the real world.

 

See this is the thing, you are fine bringing all that in. I have 0 issue with that. I DO have issue with you pushing it on others. You can say before hand what your rules are and the problem is mostly solved. Because we all know there are people who will agree, but then break that agreement. So, again, it's not bringing them in that's the problem. I'm not telling you to throw them away and not use them in game. I'm saying that pushing them on others is the problem.

 

In fact, while it's a bit different, there's a similar thing that goes on in EVE. There are for the most part, two groups, those who go to low, null and like to do alot of pvp. Then there are those who don't wish to have near that much pvp and stick to high sec to avoid it. They're not completely immune to it, but it's still a rare enough occurrence. The thing is there is this vocal group on the pvp side that wants the rules changed so they can initiate pvp against those players nearly at will. One guy even suggested that if he war decs a corp, that the people in that corp HAVE to fight him. Extreme for sure, but it's the forcing your playstyle on others problem.

 

EDIT: Typos

Edited January 30, 2012 by ispanolfw