Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Touchbass]

[quote=RachelAnne;2347740

You can server trans or lvl a new char, it does take only a few days. Problem solved

 

Your solution to dying servers is to pull the plug on them? X-LFD is the only working solution.

 

I did lvl many chars at wow, I always could do my dungeon quest´s in time. Even the group quest´s never were a big problem, people were searching all day for groups. And even if you wouldnt find a group, there is no need for doing dungeons. The quest´s are sufficent for lvl ups, there are more than enough

 

Your solution is don't do the content cause it's not mandatory? Why even have leveling dungeons then? X-LFD is the only solution that worked.

 

Yes the type of player has changed, new ones were added. What I fail to see is the reason, why all these now should be put into 1 pool, like it happens at the LFG. This will cause problems, just like we can see all day at wow. The mother that wants to check for the baby, gets insulted and kicked from the group. The casual gets threatn if he doesnt do better and the elitist does feel abused by "helping" players below his standards. This is not the solution...

 

In classic and tbc we had mothers, children, jobless, students etc. in our guild and all could have fun. And this was the case, because they could play with their own - something that a LFD tool does not allow.

 

You are part of the very small vocal minority who don't enjoy the X-LFD in any capactiy. Don't use it then. Groups are formed on every server without the use of X-LFD, maybe you have bad social habits that prevent you from forming such groups?

 

The problem is, that you dont help casuals, moms, children etc. by a LFD tool - you make it worse for them. I know tons of these people, that were afraid to play wow and quit due the LFD tool.

 

You know people who are afraid to play wow? You want me to take you serious right?

 

If you search for a group manually, then you get in dungeons faster and within a more reliable group. I dont remember a day when it was better or faster by going with the tool. Oh wait, the first 3 days of cata it was - as my guild wasnt lvl 85 yet. But after this the best way of doing a dungeon always was with friends.

If they were offline then yes I could use the tool, something I did from time to time - but the groups were either horrible bad (in their manners) or friendly but totally unskilled. While having a group with bad manners always leads to me leaving them, does a group with unskilled lead to hours of wiping - which is not really a good investment for a casual.

 

Don't use the tool then? X-LFD is for casuals, the majority of WoW is causals, the majority of playeres have good experiences and demand more access with the same rules as X-LFD. Blizzard provides. Argument over.

 

If I have 1 or 2 hours a day to play, then I want to spend that time with friendly people who dont shout, ninja or just behave bad. Yes I might not always find these people, but atleast if I do I have fun.

To use the tool was always a nightmare for me, as the manners were just not acceptable after a day of work. Once again I am asking you, whats more fun. To always get into a dungeon if you play, or to get only in sometimes but if you do, having a blast? Id always choose the second way, if nobody is online then I log off or to an alt questing or some pvp. Even tho most people play at the same time, if you met friends then they will usually log on at the same time like you.

 

If you meet friends they will always log on the same time as you? Serously?

 

The major problem at wow is, that people did not make friends because a tool did give them "robots" to play with. By introducing such a tool now, how shall people make any friends? Its impossible.

 

I've made lots of friends post X-LFD and so have many others, invalid argument.

 

You gave an example which can work like that, but mostly doesnt. Iam guessing you play on us servers, so youhave a different queue experience there. At Europe a dps does wait 40 min, at some days even longer. A tank does wait 1 or 2 minutes and a healer about 5-10 minutes.

Lets assume you are a dps, then you wait 40 minutes for your group. Then you get into a group, that group is either new formed or the rest of a wipe. Now you start the dungeon and most of the time wipe a few times, some people rage or in worst case you get kicked. Its not seldom that you waited for 40 mins, then wiped for 1 hour just to find yourself in town again, as you were kicked. In the end you just wasted 2 hours of your time and didnt finish anything.

While this is the worst case scenario, it does also apply to many groups that are found in the tool.

The perfect group as you were describing it, does seldom happen. Most of the times you got people that skip content, rage or just perform poorly - which is atleast from my experience not worth the "lazy move" of hitting a queue button, not worth the time at all.

 

You are making up the worst possible case scenario and trying to make us swallow it that it happens every damn time. Do you not understand no one is buying this?

 

Here I partly agree, even tho I do know that you can still find groups then. That group is only a minority tho and as sad it might sound, you can not make games for minorities. If the majority does not want such a tool due its bad influence, then this should matter and not the few people that work at night.

 

If the majority does not want a tool that they asked for? What on earth are you smoking.

 

 

You came back, while many others left. I did play wow since alpha and I do know exactly how many people were around at what time. And its a fact that from vanilla on until mid TBC, the amount of people was growing.

At WOTLK it started to decrease slowly and many people I knew were gone and hardly new ones came in.

 

All facts show X-LFD increases subscriptions

 

 

Wrong!

Things like nerf´s, 30% buff, additional loot were added so that people did actually use the LFD tool. If you did not use it, you had major disadvantages like gearing up slower. Also the nerfs were too heavy for those in premade groups, there was not a button which offered you unnerfed content.

Also you did not know that sitting in a town was not required to group. There was a tool at wow, just like the one we got here at Tor. You could add yourself to several raids or dungeons, yes even zones and group quest´s.

If someone was intrested in grouping then he would say so, or you could simply whisper them. There was never any need of spamming chat in a town (ofc you cant find groups like that, as nobody was doing it, except some who were "dumb"), every server had that tool and a world wide lfg chat. Using it was not somekind of forbidden fruit you know.

 

This paragraph really isn't helping your cause.

 

 

If you look for a group the old way, then you dont end up with players who dont want what you want.

If you use the tool, then you will. All that kicking if you wont skip bosses, perform poorly or dont want the ninja to take your gear - are things that came up with the tool. Its an illusion to think they happened before, especially if you as you said didnt find groups... so where does that experience come from? Was it a dream?

 

Fact is, the different opinions about MMO´s all collide at the LFD tool and this does make it so bad. You want us to understand that there are different groups playing MMO´s, yet you want the LFD tool - this is hypocricity.

 

Fact: ninja's existed before LFD, X-LFD made ninja'ing impossible. If you don't understand what a ninja is then you can't participate in this debate

 

People definately dont try anymore, thats a fact. If in past you wiped on a boss, then you tried again. Today its either a rage fest or a group kick or a leaving of the tank / healer - which leads to another queue time.

 

Nobody said the X-LFD is perfect, just that it's a better system then the old one.

 

If the X-LFD is such a cesspool as you say it is then people would form groups the old fashion way. Unfortunately for you and benefical for us that isn't a reality and the X-LFD is thriving as the backbone of the most successfull MMORPG. sorry.

[Gavin_Darkl]

2 Odd choices to pick however the logic does not work because of this.

 

# + # = Outcome (The out come is FACT)

 

2 + 2 = 4 (This is a Fact)

 

This is Basic Logic and is set in stone FACT, its not an opinion nor is it a belief that its correct. It can be proven.

 

A person joins a LFD tool + Has a bad experience because the group failed due to what ever situation = Bad Out come they didn't using the LFD tool

 

You can not say its not a fact because it could be defined as a personal opinion. If you want to say that then you can say this statement is incorrect.

 

Construction worker working with a a saw + Construction worker slips and cuts off finger = Construction worker is in pain and needs medical attention.

 

Yes it the situation can be based on opinion because they dont feel pain so loosen a finger does not hurt. However does that make it fact for everyone else? No Both sides are fact for the individual people involved. You cant mistake a persons experience which can be stated as FACT versus an opinion about it. Yes the LFD tool out come can based on FACT. Its the variables that occur and you have to agree that certain variables will mean something, like Failed run is a bad experiences. A fast Successful run is a good experience. Just like Math and Logic, its based on proofs and some agreed upon variables that have meaning.

[Neiloch]

If the X-LFD is such a cesspool as you say it is then people would form groups the old fashion way. Unfortunately for you and benefical for us that isn't a reality and the X-LFD is thriving as the backbone of the most successfull MMORPG. sorry.

 

Yes like I said several times:

 

If the LFD tool was so bad it would have failed, it hasn't failed so its not so bad. other big games are picking it up. People continue to use it even though getting groups the 'old fashion way' is still perfectly possible if people actually want to do it that way.

 

Saying the LFD tool is bad is like saying motor vehicles will be the death of us all because someone, somewhere died in a motor vehicle accident. Or you personally had a bad accident or you know someone who did. then say everyone should just keep using bikes because they aren't as dangerous completely dismissing the advantages and benefits of motor vehicles.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[MalignX]

2 Odd choices to pick however the logic does not work because of this.

 

# + # = Outcome (The out come is FACT)

 

2 + 2 = 4 (This is a Fact)

 

This is Basic Logic and is set in stone FACT, its not an opinion nor is it a belief that its correct. It can be proven.

 

In your head, sure. Only thing that can be proven is that you don't like Random Dungeon Finders.

 

A person joins a LFD tool + Has a bad experience because the group failed due to what ever situation = Bad Out come they didn't using the LFD tool

 

What does this even mean? Might wanna edit it.

 

You can not say its not a fact because it could be defined as a personal opinion. If you want to say that then you can say this statement is incorrect.

 

It's not fact.

 

Construction worker working with a a saw + Construction worker slips and cuts off finger = Construction worker is in pain and needs medical attention.

Better get him to a hospital?

 

Yes it the situation can be based on opinion because they dont feel pain so loosen a finger does not hurt. However does that make it fact for everyone else? No Both sides are fact for the individual people involved. You cant mistake a persons experience which can be stated as FACT versus an opinion about it. Yes the LFD tool out come can based on FACT. Its the variables that occur and you have to agree that certain variables will mean something, like Failed run is a bad experiences. A fast Successful run is a good experience. Just like Math and Logic, its based on proofs and some agreed upon variables that have meaning.

 

Sorry, you are still wrong. Your opinion doesn't equal sound math. If you need definitions for these words, see above. Mmmkay?

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX

[Gavin_Darkl]

If the X-LFD is such a cesspool as you say it is then people would form groups the old fashion way. Unfortunately for you and benefical for us that isn't a reality and the X-LFD is thriving as the backbone of the most successfull MMORPG. sorry.

 

First off its not Thriving, its you either use it or you suffer. So no your Reality is false. If you do not use it you do not get extra badges. If you dont use it the loot will not be setup for the classes you have in your group. If you do not use it no one else will run instances with you because they do not feel the need anymore to socialize with people

 

Your Statement is FALSE because you are FORCED to use it and the release posted above.

 

The only reason they have a Cross server LFD tool at all is this. They have too many barley populated servers. Yes I say Barely because when I was on 2 servers that when from PVP to PVE the top end overall population was between 1200 to 1800 people. With that low of a Number you can not run a Server only LFD tool. It would take hours to get groups. And you know why they did not shut the server down and transfer people to servers that had 5K+ members? 1 reason. People did not want to have to change their names, it such a crime to be forced to change your name.

 

Had all servers been 5K to 15K, you would only need a server only LFD tool.

[Neiloch]

If you can't prove something, ideally through the scientific method, (testimony and personal experience is not proof) then it can not truly be a fact. It can be your opinion that it is fact, but that changes nothing accept how you personally think about something. Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[MalignX]

First off its not Thriving, its you either use it or you suffer. So no your Reality is false. If you do not use it you do not get extra badges. If you dont use it the loot will not be setup for the classes you have in your group. If you do not use it no one else will run instances with you because they do not feel the need anymore to socialize with people

 

10 Million players is thriving whether you think so or not. These are all your personal experiences or opinions. Not facts.

 

Your Statement is FALSE because you are FORCED to use it and the release posted above.

 

This is your opinion again. Not fact.

 

The only reason they have a Cross server LFD tool at all is this. They have too many barley populated servers. Yes I say Barely because when I was on 2 servers that when from PVP to PVE the top end overall population was between 1200 to 1800 people. With that low of a Number you can not run a Server only LFD tool. It would take hours to get groups. And you know why they did not shut the server down and transfer people to servers that had 5K+ members? 1 reason. People did not want to have to change their names, it such a crime to be forced to change your name.

 

Had all servers been 5K to 15K, you would only need a server only LFD tool.

 

Again, while I'm glad you feel so strongly about this, you are still just giving personal experiences and opinions. I am glad you think so highly of your own opinion, doesn't make it reality.

 

 

Sorry.

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX

[Neiloch]

First off its not Thriving, its you either use it or you suffer. So no your Reality is false. If you do not use it you do not get extra badges. If you dont use it the loot will not be setup for the classes you have in your group. If you do not use it no one else will run instances with you because they do not feel the need anymore to socialize with people

 

So its NOT thriving because its wholly better than regular grouping, thus everyone uses it making groups attempted to be put together without it obsolete?

 

I ask again, do you think people are abandoning 'old style' grouping because LFD is WORSE?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[Gavin_Darkl]

Well if you people who want a Cross server LFD tool really want it. Fine then dint expect compromise from anyone ever again. I came away from No LFD tool as long as it was SERVER only. You guys cant even get off the cross server LFD tool and meet half way. Its all or nothing for you, it will be the same for me. Don't expect any agreement or compromise at all from me and likely other people on this subject. The same ******** battle is happening over AC Respecs. Neither side is willing to compromise and meet half way, why because when 1 side does the compromise the other party says know. Very much like how our Government works, only you are the obstructionist for the mere fact you are not willing to compromise. It has to be 100% your way or no way.

[Darkulous]

When I log into WoW, I ask myself "What should I do?"

 

When I log into TOR, I ask myself "What can I do?"

 

I love playing both games but TOR seems a bit unpolished and I get frustrated quickly. I'm keeping my subscription regardless because I want TOR to succeed! I see my subscription as an investment and I hope it pays off down the road.

[MalignX]

Well if you people who want a Cross server LFD tool really want it. Fine then dint expect compromise from anyone ever again. I came away from No LFD tool as long as it was SERVER only. You guys cant even get off the cross server LFD tool and meet half way. Its all or nothing for you, it will be the same for me. Don't expect any agreement or compromise at all from me and likely other people on this subject. The same ******** battle is happening over AC Respecs. Neither side is willing to compromise and meet half way, why because when 1 side does the compromise the other party says know. Very much like how our Government works, only you are the obstructionist for the mere fact you are not willing to compromise. It has to be 100% your way or no way.

 

Opinions. Thanks for posting!

[Neiloch]

Well if you people who want a Cross server LFD tool really want it. Fine then dint expect compromise from anyone ever again. I came away from No LFD tool as long as it was SERVER only. You guys cant even get off the cross server LFD tool and meet half way. Its all or nothing for you, it will be the same for me. Don't expect any agreement or compromise at all from me and likely other people on this subject. The same ******** battle is happening over AC Respecs. Neither side is willing to compromise and meet half way, why because when 1 side does the compromise the other party says know. Very much like how our Government works, only you are the obstructionist for the mere fact you are not willing to compromise. It has to be 100% your way or no way.

 

You are mistaken in thinking a compromise is needed, or that even if we came to one here that it would matter.

 

Here is what I am willing to bet will happen:

 

We'll get a LFG tool that isn't a DF but very close. Kind of like a 'manual' DF that suggests pairings and compatible people and that is about it. Then it will move into same server automation. then it will move into cross server. The timeframe for these events? I haven't the slightest idea.

 

the rest of this thread for me was just a moot debate, i just happen to like debating.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[Gavin_Darkl]

So its NOT thriving because its wholly better than regular grouping, thus everyone uses it making groups attempted to be put together without it obsolete?

 

I ask again, do you think people are abandoning 'old style' grouping because LFD is WORSE?

 

No they are Abandoning the old style for convenience. If it takes a person longer to gear up by not using the LFD tool Guess what they will use it because they dont want to do a Herioc Mech run 25 times for that tank weapon and still not get it.

 

They dont want to wait 5 or 10 minutes for their guildy to get back from making lunch they might as well queue up and screw the Guildy he can fend for himself

 

They leave a group over 1 wipe just because they know they can get another run within 15 minutes. Not because it was some MAJOR problem, a minor mistake or someone DCed in the middle of the fight, or the instance server crashed. Nope their next Group will be better.

 

 

Convenience does not always mean better. Yes people are being forced to use it for convenience and YES cause no one has patience anymore.

 

 

Is it so hard for you LFD people to deal with a Server Only LFD tool that well will get you into the instance within 30 minutes to an hour. No you feel that it should be handed to you RIGHT NOW. Not that others think if you put a little effort in making sure you could throw the group together the old way, ( hey guildies want to run a flashpoint) It might even be faster and have a lot of headaches in the end?

[Ethern]

Well if you people who want a Cross server LFD tool really want it. Fine then dint expect compromise from anyone ever again. I came away from No LFD tool as long as it was SERVER only. You guys cant even get off the cross server LFD tool and meet half way. Its all or nothing for you, it will be the same for me. Don't expect any agreement or compromise at all from me and likely other people on this subject. The same ******** battle is happening over AC Respecs. Neither side is willing to compromise and meet half way, why because when 1 side does the compromise the other party says know. Very much like how our Government works, only you are the obstructionist for the mere fact you are not willing to compromise. It has to be 100% your way or no way.

Since when a compromise has to be found? Either people find groups in good delays, either they don't. Where is the compromise in that?

Either there is a LFD, either there is a high chance of not doing any group content for the day.

[Gavin_Darkl]

You are mistaken in thinking a compromise is needed, or that even if we came to one here that it would matter.

 

Here is what I am willing to bet will happen:

 

We'll get a LFG tool that isn't a DF but very close. Kind of like a 'manual' DF that suggests pairings and compatible people and that is about it. Then it will move into same server automation. then it will move into cross server. The timeframe for these events? I haven't the slightest idea.

 

the rest of this thread for me was just a moot debate, i just happen to like debating.

 

Question? Who said that a LFD finder HAS TO BE Cross Server? Could you not have a VERY successful Server Only LFD tool?

[Neiloch]

Convenience does not always mean better.

 

True but in this case a lot of people certainly seem to think so.

 

I would rather go through 5 bad groups and 1 good one quickly than wait a long time for 1 good group, which may or may not actually be a good group. i'd rather just hurry up and get a bad spot and get going instead of driving around almost at random looking for a prime spot, which may not ever come up in the time frame I have.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[MalignX]

No they are Abandoning the old style for convenience. If it takes a person longer to gear up by not using the LFD tool Guess what they will use it because they dont want to do a Herioc Mech run 25 times for that tank weapon and still not get it.

 

Guess that means LFD is a good thing.

 

They dont want to wait 5 or 10 minutes for their guildy to get back from making lunch they might as well queue up and screw the Guildy he can fend for himself

 

Guess the Guildy will be using LFD too then.

 

They leave a group over 1 wipe just because they know they can get another run within 15 minutes. Not because it was some MAJOR problem, a minor mistake or someone DCed in the middle of the fight, or the instance server crashed. Nope their next Group will be better.

Cute story. Opinion.

 

 

Convenience does not always mean better. Yes people are being forced to use it for convenience and YES cause no one has patience anymore.

 

Opinion.

 

 

Is it so hard for you LFD people to deal with a Server Only LFD tool that well will get you into the instance within 30 minutes to an hour. No you feel that it should be handed to you RIGHT NOW. Not that others think if you put a little effort in making sure you could throw the group together the old way, ( hey guildies want to run a flashpoint) It might even be faster and have a lot of headaches in the end?

 

You're just rambling at this point. It's not a matter of how long the LFD takes, it's whether we have it or not. We've tried putting effort into getting a group together "the old way", and "the old way" sucks in my OPINION.

 

You don't want to use the X-Server LFD tool, then only play with your guild or all those people that are going to get blessed by knowing you in game. Have fun, we will too. How about this? We don't get a LFD tool, and everyone that plays for more than 20+ hours a week gets a XP penalty or a lock out period? Or every guild needs a mandatory set of rules or code of conduct, set by other players, that they have to follow or cannot be a guild? Heh.

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX

[Neiloch]

Question? Who said that a LFD finder HAS TO BE Cross Server? Could you not have a VERY successful Server Only LFD tool?

 

Not me. i'm sure server side tool would work well enough on a decently populated server, problem is unless BioWare does something proactive about these low pop ones a server side only tool won't have anywhere near an even benefit across the servers. Some servers might not see much improvement at all, except people's lack of getting a group is more automated.

[Ethern]

Question? Who said that a LFD finder HAS TO BE Cross Server? Could you not have a VERY successful Server Only LFD tool?

A good designed LFD tool must have two options;

- one server wide

- one cross server. You know why? because the reached players' pool is larger.

A intra server is too dependent on the server's population. Since this same population is already idle in the fleet looking for group, your server wide option only would have very limited effects.

[Gavin_Darkl]

What ever. You guys just want the game handed to you just because you pay $15 a month. Good luck with that. This game will be the same as the old. I am done with this BS you need to have it your way conversation.

 

Simple X server LFD comes I go. Thats a Fact, thats why I left WoW and will never go back.

 

Fact: many of my friends left WoW for the same Reason and would do the same.

 

Go a head and say good bye and troll this message. I do not care. I don't Play MMOs that play like a Lobby game or a single player game. Cross server LFD make it so.

[Ethern]

What ever. You guys just want the game handed to you just because you pay $15 a month. Good luck with that. This game will be the same as the old. I am done with this BS you need to have it your way conversation.

 

Simple X server LFD comes I go. Thats a Fact, thats why I left WoW and will never go back.

 

Fact: many of my friends left WoW for the same Reason and would do the same.

 

Go a head and say good bye and troll this message. I do not care. I don't Play MMOs that play like a Lobby game or a single player game. Cross server LFD make it so.

What a threat!!

[Gavin_Darkl]

Not me. i'm sure server side tool would work well enough on a decently populated server, problem is unless BioWare does something proactive about these low pop ones a server side only tool won't have anywhere near an even benefit across the servers. Some servers might not see much improvement at all, except people's lack of getting a group is more automated.

 

Answer to this is Basic. Server is under X number of active accounts Close it Allow transfers.

 

Yes people will ***** that they need to change their name. People will ***** about the sun rising. WGAF

[MalignX]

What ever. You guys just want the game handed to you just because you pay $15 a month. Good luck with that. This game will be the same as the old. I am done with this BS you need to have it your way conversation.

 

Again, your opinions.

 

Simple X server LFD comes I go. Thats a Fact, thats why I left WoW and will never go back.

 

Well helloooooo fact!! You take your toys and go home Cartman! That's not a "need to have it your way" statement at all!

 

Fact: many of my friends left WoW for the same Reason and would do the same.

I'm sure they number in the thousands.

 

Go a head and say good bye and troll this message. I do not care. I don't Play MMOs that play like a Lobby game or a single player game. Cross server LFD make it so.

 

You seem exactly like the people you warn are going to be in this Doomsday LFD tool.

Thanks for posting your ideas and opinions. We've enjoyed discussing them with you.

 

And that's a fact.

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX

[Neiloch]

I fail to see how holding this supposed AAA game up to the standards of MMO's before it is wanting it 'handed' to me. SWTOR literally has, as far as I can tell, the worst environment for grouping in the many MMO's I have played.

 

Such as:

dungeons and dragons online

Everquest

everquest 2

Guild Wars

Rift

World of Warcraft

Dc Universe Online

and more.

 

If its not the LFG tool itself that's worse its the communication that's worse. If its not either its that it allows soloing so much up to 50 no one is used to grouping. the only way I could see the current system working is if they forced/severely obligated people to group for EVERYTHING after level 10 like FF11. that would be some seriously old school mechanics though that I don't think many would tolerate these days.

 

Answer to this is Basic. Server is under X number of active accounts Close it Allow transfers.

 

Yes people will ***** that they need to change their name. People will ***** about the sun rising. WGAF

 

Merging/closing servers would not bode well for onlookers when it comes to assessing the games success and in a roundabout way, EA's stock numbers. So I seriously doubt they will be doing that any time soon. If you think the main reason companies are reluctant to merge servers is over names, you are sorely mistaken.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[roybum]

Cons:

 

1) Loss of community

 

Situations:

A: If you can just join a random group why make friends?

B: If you got free groups with no work why join a guild?

 

2) To much focus on dungeons!

 

Why?

This unlike other MMORPG's is RPG there is a detailed a unique storyline. People who play mmorpg often forget what an RPG is. Just having a character sheet with information that advances... as you grind through the game with no effects... just increased stats... no progress in story...

 

3) More people complaining about WoW clones...

 

Side note: No! WoW wasnt the first and its not the best Runescape and wow are of the same quality in my book... and runescape was first... and free... so thats a plus...

 

 

Pros?

 

well i hate the idea but for the disscussion...

 

1) Easy of access

 

2) Less guilt associated with NEED

 

3) More Rare items for every1!!! (humm con?)