Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Touchbass]

Hopefully

 

I just know i spent an hour spamming LFG and flagging myself LFG in the excuse called a tool that is there now last night.... UNG stuck in fleet once i got a group I had to wait for the tank to make his way back from Nar Shadaa cause he went questing while his buddy continued to spam for a healer for another 20 min.

 

 

What is happening now as i did with my main, I out level/outgear the instances and run them solo. I want to be out doing things -- not standing in a cargo bay spamming LFG.

 

I spend an hour and a half before my "you cannot run a flashpoint if you want to get to work on time" point trying to find a group and I was the only person flagged However I did notice that if you flag yourself LFG it shows on your characters name in-game. I'm sure a lot of valuable development went into that idea.

[Racheakt]

...... Some small sense of retribution. It's when the sociopaths go on a nerdrage trying to get everyone that will listen to ban a single person because they got slighted that problems arise.

 

Like now, I have seen at least one argument in general:

 

Person A is posting LFG

 

Purson B claims Person A is a ninja and a scrub do not group with him

 

Person A protests.

 

 

How do you know who is right? you don't. This is why I don't think this rep thing is what people think it is.

 

 

For the record I decided to group with Person A -- the run went fine. Still looking for the opportunity to do a group with B to see if he was the problem

[Neiloch]

...For the record I decided to group with Person A -- the run went fine. Still looking for the opportunity to do a group with B to see if he was the problem

 

Only time I wouldn't group with someone that other people say is bad is if that person actually says they did it in some snotty way.

 

Guy A: Hey guy b just ninja'd a piece of loot then left the group! don't group with him!

Guy B: yeah i did it so what gonna cry some moar lol shuddup looser

[Manathayria]

No one would mind that, most people like myself are against cross server LFD, not the tool itself, if the system was server isolated.

 

And yes the problem is that some people who are advocating for this tool actually do want a blatant copy of WoW's system, you can just tell that from reading their posts.

 

On the other hand there is a ton of people who didn't like WoW's cross server thing at all.

The idea of people from another server whom you most likely will never see again can just hop in group isn't everyone's cup of tea really.

 

I think we refer back to WoW's cross server tool because it is one that's used in both WoW and Rift. It's the only one most people have prior experience with.

 

I used the server-only LFG/LFD back in BC and a few other LFG systems in other games. Like AoC's global LFM disaster which likely only works because it's a relatively low pop game anyway - they are now down to 3-4 servers with 1 or 2 of those begging for a merge.

 

I've given reference to a few 'new' ideas for an x-server/server tool. To include supporting the concept of a server only tool within an x-server one.

 

Also the more recent one for 'what about rewarding you for grouping with people that are friended or in guild.

 

Cross server friends lists are a very real thing in other games as well, so you could really spend some time combining the three concepts - include an account wide friend/ignore for if you add someone (something guild wars does/did flawlessly) and right there, it's an old system with a lot of new things added into it to help 'community' and to help people get groups running easier.

 

Understand, unless someone hits a major breakthrough on ideas, there's no point in reinventing the wheel. Improve - yes, and that's what we're discussing.

 

If we get cross server there's a lot of things I'd like to see put into place and changed - if we get server only there's still a lot of odd and end features that might be nice additions. To include changing loot rolls so they're [need] [companion] [greed] [disassemble].

 

To toss around the one idea more - they could run with the concept of rewards for running with guild or friends - or a reward for venturing into a full pug/a combination of the two is something else that may help with 'community'.

 

'you are grouping with someone that's a friend, you get x token for that'

'you are grouping with 1 new person that you do not have on friends list or in guild, you get x token for that'

 

And if you have both someone friended in the group, and one or two full on pugs, you get both rewards maybe?

 

I don't know, just tossing ideas out to the crowd in this case.

[Manathayria]

I spend an hour and a half before my "you cannot run a flashpoint if you want to get to work on time" point trying to find a group and I was the only person flagged However I did notice that if you flag yourself LFG it shows on your characters name in-game. I'm sure a lot of valuable development went into that idea.

 

I actually tried using that as a seacom just to see if I could. I kept getting tells asking me if I wanted to do heroics so I threw up a 'In group, PuG - No thanks' comment and got nowhere with that - I ended up with MORE tells and quickly dropped the flag. Noticed a few weeks ago that little marker was on for the LFG though.

 

I had a flash back to the /seaall searches from FFXI or I likely wouldn't have tried it at all.

 

 

To be honest, the first time I saw the little symbol with the people by someone's name at release, my first thought had been that they were a party leader - not that they were LFG/LFM. I'd never really used LFG in here during the beta weekends I had access to.

 

The three purple guys by your name reminded me of the marks we had above us when flag was up in FFXI. The green circled ? was for those of us that were just LFG, and a red circled ! meant you auto accepted the invite if I remember right - the idea had been that the red ! was just 'I want a group, don't care where we're going if it's levels' but by the time NA release hit that kinda was a flag to the JP players that you weren't that good at the game as you couldn't normally find a party, and so you were avoided if you used it while LFG.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Manathayria

[Touchbass]

Two things on my agenda, well three actually.

 

1) The next patch is sometime in march, think we'll see a fix? I really can't believe Bioware is going to stall anymore with the uproar going on. They need to give us something, I'm not waiting 3-4 months for a tool that may or may not work.

 

2) Has anyone put any thought into the DPS queues in this game? With a ratio of 2 support for 2 dps it scares me what queues are going to be if people can't find groups within hours of searching

 

3) Want to test out this spoiler tag:

 

 

Brief History of the Pro LFD versus Anti LFD

 

 

it all started with standing in the fleet LFG

 

Swtor had always been a massive open world MMORPG, except that there were a few too many people LFG in the fleet. The more people standing around in the fleet LFG there were, the more people had to stand in the fleet to LFG. With all the people in the fleet LFG it lowered the chance of finding groups outside of the fleet, so more people had to sit in fleet. SWTOR eventually passed what Groupologists call 'fleet event horizen' when it was no longer feasible to lfg outside of fleet, needless to say, diaster ensued. Those few who refused to sit in fleet to LFG for hours have flocked to the boards and asked for help while those who refused to leave the fleet have mutated into a biodrone troll which spouts "Learn2play"

 

 

It's a common MMORPG phenomenon, but tragic to see in operation.

 

Edited January 30, 2012 by Touchbass

[WynnK]

+1 Looking for Flashpoint and Operations both cross-server.

[Lossee]

I really dont care if its cross server or not. I just want to be able to look for a group while im out doing dailies rather than sit in the fleet for hours on end looking for a group.

[Touchbass]

I really dont care if its cross server or not. I just want to be able to look for a group while im out doing dailies rather than sit in the fleet for hours on end looking for a group.

 

Amen.

[Neiloch]

I hope even the people who are against a DF outright in any form start to realize the longer we go without a LFG upgrade of some sort, the more people simply won't care even if its full on WoW DF with cross server.

 

The longer people go without water the less they care where it comes from.

 

So really if you don't want cross server, I would suggest you start REALLY pushing a same server DF be put in right the **** now. Based off how things are heading that's the only thing that could possibly prevent it.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[Touchbass]

I hope even the people who are against a DF outright in any form start to realize the longer we go without a LFG upgrade of some sort, the more people simply won't care even if its full on WoW DF with cross server.

 

The longer people go without water the less they care where it comes from.

 

So really if you don't want cross server, I would suggest you start REALLY pushing a same server DF be put in right the **** now. Based off how things are heading that's the only thing that could possibly prevent it.

 

I'd even queue with the team responsible for community relations at this point ...

[RachelAnne]

What this game really needs at this point...is a Dungeon Finder. It was a huge success in other MMO's, no reason for it not to be in this game.

 

Pros:

 

1. Can continue questing while waiting for group to form.

2. Prevents trolls from sitting there ruining General Chat while they are bored trying to fill a group.

3. Proves that BioWare can do something like this. Buys street creds.

 

Cons:

 

1. Some people think it ruins the community...but I think they are wrong. They obviously have not sat for an hour trying to fill a Flashpoint group.

2. People who think like that are probably in a huge guild and have no trouble filling groups. We're usually filling 2-3 of 4 and just need that last role.

 

Pro 1:

 

You can keep questing now too, there is no need to stand at a planet or fleet. Please read the manuar or ask at the forum how the tools works.

 

Pro 2:

 

Put them on ignore or enter the LFD channel of your server. To search at general chat is not very smart tbh.

 

Pro 3:

 

While the lazy ones might be happy, the social ones will jump the ship - like it happens at wow since WOTLK. BW does not win anything by pleasing a crowd that does run back to wow anyways, as soon the Panda´s arrive.

 

Con 1:

 

I didnt, because I dont have to sit in a town to write something in the LFG channel or to whisper people. Maybe you should try this out too

 

Con 2:

 

Dont have any guild, even my f-list is empty. All it requires is a simple sentence, "do you want to join me in my adventure at ...." or "I would like to join your party, please".

 

 

 

A few general thoughts.

 

 

The problem with the LFG tool of wow is simple. It does first of all make content so hard, that it must be nerfed. This is the case because a blindly picked group will not work as good as a selfmade one.

Blizz did nerf content and add buffs because of this, 30% anyone? The problem is, that this content now is too easy for premade groups - so it does affect the people too, who dont want to use the tool.

 

The second problem is the attitude in such groups. Most people using that tool have a few problems with controlling themselfs in puplic. They will rage, insult and just kick random people. This will then lead to the situation we have at wow, many casuals stop playing as they feel treated wrong by these "elitist´s", understandable if you ask me.

 

Many casuals do play tank and heal, dont ask me why but it is the case, maybe because casuals are usually the older type of player and not a young one that wants to kill stuff. Anyways, because of the missing tanks and healers the queues will sky rock. At wow these queues for dps are about 40 min, at cata release they were even higher up to 1 hour.

While 40 min wait might sound not so bad in the first place it does not guarentee you a smooth run that can be finished in time. Some runs will take up to almost 2 hours, when several players must be replaced during the run. Approximately 2 hours is the amount of time a dps will need to finish 1 run, including wait time and drama.

 

I really dont understand why there are people who really demand such a tool, as it has so many downsides.

 

 

 

A well designed LFG tool would be nice, but the wow tool is a major downfall for the community if it will ever see the light here or at any other MMO.

 

A good tool should let the player choose with whom he wants to play. Casuals could directly look for Casuals only, elitist´s for elitist´s only. But also things like "skip boss", "roll for all loot / class only" would need to be added as a filter there.

[Touchbass]

 

Blizz did nerf content and add buffs because of this, 30% anyone? The problem is, that this content now is too easy for premade groups - so it does affect the people too, who dont want to use the tool.

 

The Burning Crusade heroics had to be nerfed because the groups that did them, the hardcore type players, couldn't handle their serious mechanics and punishing gear checks. So you can't just throw up a blanket statement about getting content nerfed. Have a buff for X-LFD groups and don't let it apply to same server groups and your problem is solved.

 

I really dont understand why there are people who really demand such a tool, as it has so many downsides

 

Read my post or the other post on the first page, they're slightly below the OP.

.

 

I wish the OP could be editted, damn mods picked that post on purpose to undermine the debate.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Touchbass

[RachelAnne]

I wish the OP could be editted, damn mods picked that post on purpose to undermine the debate.

 

Well you cant compare the TBC nerf´s with the WOTLK or Cata ones. At TBC people did run those dungeons successfully for almost a year, with some minor nerf´s like at SH with the final Boss or shadowlab where they unbound the trash at 1 spot (if I recall right?).

 

The major nerf was with 3.0, but this was allready the moment when they made the game ready for WOTLK, so this is not the same kind of nerf like with lich king or cata.

 

And I seriously doubt that BW would make 2 different versions of every dungeon, as you said they should. The 30 % at wow is 1 thing, but the other is that the dungeons are nerfed. it would be better to send the loot by a mailbox and leave the dungeons untouched, so that those who want to play an MMO can do so - while those that dont want to, can just play mailboxing and still feel like heroes

 

 

Regarding your post, I gave you an direct reply for it last time - not sure where it went to tho, but its somewhere at the forums - where I answered every statement of you and did prove its not just like you think it is

 

Maybe I find it, if so I post it again.

[Touchbass]

I'd love to see a 2 tier dungeon process, one for gearing and a stepping stone into raids and another one with brutual mechanics. There where a couple get fights in Cata at launch that were screams to the past on that regard. The whole hard on for timed runs in the future isn't a step into the right direction though.

 

Yes I remember you now, we had a rose coloured glasses debate

Edited January 31, 2012 by Touchbass

[Gavin_Darkl]

And I seriously doubt that BW would make 2 different versions of every dungeon, as you said they should. The 30 % at wow is 1 thing, but the other is that the dungeons are nerfed. it would be better to send the loot by a mailbox and leave the dungeons untouched, so that those who want to play an MMO can do so - while those that dont want to, can just play mailboxing and still feel like heroes

.

 

I really like this post, because its the truth about the LFD tool with WoW. They had to nerf Already easy content so you can sleep through it and push 1 button. Yea a group of morons who could not stay out of fire wiped you, but who really wants to do 15 minute instances. I dont play MMOs for that.

 

I do think a Server Only LFD tool works because you will have 30 to 60 minute queues and you should go find a guild and be social with people.

[Gavin_Darkl]

I'd love to see a 2 tier dungeon process, one for gearing and a stepping stone into raids and another one with brutual mechanics. There where a couple get fights in Cata at launch that were screams to the past on that regard. The whole hard on for timed runs in the future isn't a step into the right direction though.

 

Yes I remember you now, we had a rose coloured glasses debate

 

If you are talking like BC had I would agree with you. I loved doing Shattered Halls and Shadow Labs on Herioc. THEY WERE A ***** TO DOWN EVEN WITH A GOOD GROUP. I Like the hard content, As long as the rewards are worth it, which honestly BC was not.

[Gavin_Darkl]

Well you cant compare the TBC nerf´s with the WOTLK or Cata ones. At TBC people did run those dungeons successfully for almost a year, with some minor nerf´s like at SH with the final Boss or shadowlab where they unbound the trash at 1 spot (if I recall right?).

 

The major nerf was with 3.0, but this was allready the moment when they made the game ready for WOTLK, so this is not the same kind of nerf like with lich king or cata.

 

And I seriously doubt that BW would make 2 different versions of every dungeon, as you said they should. The 30 % at wow is 1 thing, but the other is that the dungeons are nerfed. it would be better to send the loot by a mailbox and leave the dungeons untouched, so that those who want to play an MMO can do so - while those that dont want to, can just play mailboxing and still feel like heroes

 

 

Regarding your post, I gave you an direct reply for it last time - not sure where it went to tho, but its somewhere at the forums - where I answered every statement of you and did prove its not just like you think it is

 

Maybe I find it, if so I post it again.

 

TBC had the best Herioc non herioc instances. The reason I say that is because you had some HARD non herioc instances at level cap like Shadow Labs. You could screw up and wipe if you did not pay attention, you also knew very fast who was not paying attention and you booted them. There were some easy Heriocs like Ramparts, and there were some Hard Heriocs like Shattered Halls and Shadow Labs. Both were Fun to do and took skill.

[RachelAnne]

The saviour of low population servers/factions

You can server trans or lvl a new char, it does take only a few days. Problem solved.

2) Access to low level content

 

I did lvl many chars at wow, I always could do my dungeon quest´s in time. Even the group quest´s never were a big problem, people were searching all day for groups. And even if you wouldnt find a group, there is no need for doing dungeons. The quest´s are sufficent for lvl ups, there are more than enough.

1) Gaming demographics have changed

 

The average face of a MMORPG gamer has changed dramatically over the past, we are melting pot of veterans, power games, stay at home dad/moms, the unemployed, the mentally ill, casual gamers and multi-platform gamers.

 

Yes the type of player has changed, new ones were added. What I fail to see is the reason, why all these now should be put into 1 pool, like it happens at the LFG. This will cause problems, just like we can see all day at wow. The mother that wants to check for the baby, gets insulted and kicked from the group. The casual gets threatn if he doesnt do better and the elitist does feel abused by "helping" players below his standards. This is not the solution...

 

In classic and tbc we had mothers, children, jobless, students etc. in our guild and all could have fun. And this was the case, because they could play with their own - something that a LFD tool does not allow.

 

2) Why should we be catering to these different crowds?

 

The problem is, that you dont help casuals, moms, children etc. by a LFD tool - you make it worse for them. I know tons of these people, that were afraid to play wow and quit due the LFD tool.

 

3) This isn't Kansas anymore

 

If you think that professionel players dislike such a tool, then you are wrong. Its actually them and the elitist´s who want it. I dont know a casual that wants it do you? It would be really a weird person that has fun by beeing insulted for not beeing "high end" ...

 

5) Square peg meets the round hole

If you search for a group manually, then you get in dungeons faster and within a more reliable group. I dont remember a day when it was better or faster by going with the tool. Oh wait, the first 3 days of cata it was - as my guild wasnt lvl 85 yet. But after this the best way of doing a dungeon always was with friends.

If they were offline then yes I could use the tool, something I did from time to time - but the groups were either horrible bad (in their manners) or friendly but totally unskilled. While having a group with bad manners always leads to me leaving them, does a group with unskilled lead to hours of wiping - which is not really a good investment for a casual.

 

1)Not everyone has 24/7 availability

 

If I have 1 or 2 hours a day to play, then I want to spend that time with friendly people who dont shout, ninja or just behave bad. Yes I might not always find these people, but atleast if I do I have fun.

To use the tool was always a nightmare for me, as the manners were just not acceptable after a day of work. Once again I am asking you, whats more fun. To always get into a dungeon if you play, or to get only in sometimes but if you do, having a blast? Id always choose the second way, if nobody is online then I log off or to an alt questing or some pvp. Even tho most people play at the same time, if you met friends then they will usually log on at the same time like you.

 

2)Think LFD causes problems? The old model was worse

 

And here you are wrong. If I come home after work, then I either spend time with the family or friends. The time with friends can be spend in RL or at a game, no necessarly an MMO.

If at an MMO, then I will know these people. I will know them because we are in the same guild, did add each other after several runs or because I do know them from RL too. Friends always share the same "life", else they would not be your friends. You cant be the friend of someone who does always work when you sleep, vise versa - how to build a friendship there?

Not saying friends are there all the time, but if you dont have your girlfriend in RL - do you then jump to a ******? You dont do this, do you? So why do this at an MMO or any other hobby?

If your friends are not there, then do stuff alone - or just play with strangers, but the experience with them can be bad or good, mostly bad tho (at games).

 

The major problem at wow is, that people did not make friends because a tool did give them "robots" to play with. By introducing such a tool now, how shall people make any friends? Its impossible.

3)The solution that worked for most gamers

 

You gave an example which can work like that, but mostly doesnt. Iam guessing you play on us servers, so youhave a different queue experience there. At Europe a dps does wait 40 min, at some days even longer. A tank does wait 1 or 2 minutes and a healer about 5-10 minutes.

Lets assume you are a dps, then you wait 40 minutes for your group. Then you get into a group, that group is either new formed or the rest of a wipe. Now you start the dungeon and most of the time wipe a few times, some people rage or in worst case you get kicked. Its not seldom that you waited for 40 mins, then wiped for 1 hour just to find yourself in town again, as you were kicked. In the end you just wasted 2 hours of your time and didnt finish anything.

While this is the worst case scenario, it does also apply to many groups that are found in the tool.

The perfect group as you were describing it, does seldom happen. Most of the times you got people that skip content, rage or just perform poorly - which is atleast from my experience not worth the "lazy move" of hitting a queue button, not worth the time at all.

 

4)Work odd hour or strangely irregular hours

 

Here I partly agree, even tho I do know that you can still find groups then. That group is only a minority tho and as sad it might sound, you can not make games for minorities. If the majority does not want such a tool due its bad influence, then this should matter and not the few people that work at night.

 

5)The player level bubble

 

I did lvl many chars and always found people. And if not, just skip it - nobody was forced to kill a world boss at wow.1)

 

2)The LFD killed WoW (or severely crippled it)

 

You came back, while many others left. I did play wow since alpha and I do know exactly how many people were around at what time. And its a fact that from vanilla on until mid TBC, the amount of people was growing.

At WOTLK it started to decrease slowly and many people I knew were gone and hardly new ones came in.

 

3)The majority of these people opposing the LFD are hypocrites

 

Wrong!

Things like nerf´s, 30% buff, additional loot were added so that people did actually use the LFD tool. If you did not use it, you had major disadvantages like gearing up slower. Also the nerfs were too heavy for those in premade groups, there was not a button which offered you unnerfed content.

Also you did not know that sitting in a town was not required to group. There was a tool at wow, just like the one we got here at Tor. You could add yourself to several raids or dungeons, yes even zones and group quest´s.

If someone was intrested in grouping then he would say so, or you could simply whisper them. There was never any need of spamming chat in a town (ofc you cant find groups like that, as nobody was doing it, except some who were "dumb"), every server had that tool and a world wide lfg chat. Using it was not somekind of forbidden fruit you know.

 

5)Players have diminished in quality since the LFD for reason X,Y, and Z

 

If you look for a group the old way, then you dont end up with players who dont want what you want.

If you use the tool, then you will. All that kicking if you wont skip bosses, perform poorly or dont want the ninja to take your gear - are things that came up with the tool. Its an illusion to think they happened before, especially if you as you said didnt find groups... so where does that experience come from? Was it a dream?

 

Fact is, the different opinions about MMO´s all collide at the LFD tool and this does make it so bad. You want us to understand that there are different groups playing MMO´s, yet you want the LFD tool - this is hypocricity.

6)The Z in “X,Y, and Z” is for laZy

 

People definately dont try anymore, thats a fact. If in past you wiped on a boss, then you tried again. Today its either a rage fest or a group kick or a leaving of the tank / healer - which leads to another queue time.

Edited January 31, 2012 by RachelAnne

[MalignX]

The saviour of low population servers/factions

You can server trans or lvl a new char, it does take only a few days. Problem solved.

2) Access to low level content

 

I did lvl many chars at wow, I always could do my dungeon quest´s in time. Even the group quest´s never were a big problem, people were searching all day for groups. And even if you wouldnt find a group, there is no need for doing dungeons. The quest´s are sufficent for lvl ups, there are more than enough.

1) Gaming demographics have changed

 

The average face of a MMORPG gamer has changed dramatically over the past, we are melting pot of veterans, power games, stay at home dad/moms, the unemployed, the mentally ill, casual gamers and multi-platform gamers.

 

Yes the type of player has changed, new ones were added. What I fail to see is the reason, why all these now should be put into 1 pool, like it happens at the LFG. This will cause problems, just like we can see all day at wow. The mother that wants to check for the baby, gets insulted and kicked from the group. The casual gets threatn if he doesnt do better and the elitist does feel abused by "helping" players below his standards. This is not the solution...

 

In classic and tbc we had mothers, children, jobless, students etc. in our guild and all could have fun. And this was the case, because they could play with their own - something that a LFD tool does not allow.

 

2) Why should we be catering to these different crowds?

 

The problem is, that you dont help casuals, moms, children etc. by a LFD tool - you make it worse for them. I know tons of these people, that were afraid to play wow and quit due the LFD tool.

 

3) This isn't Kansas anymore

 

If you think that professionel players dislike such a tool, then you are wrong. Its actually them and the elitist´s who want it. I dont know a casual that wants it do you? It would be really a weird person that has fun by beeing insulted for not beeing "high end" ...

 

5) Square peg meets the round hole

If you search for a group manually, then you get in dungeons faster and within a more reliable group. I dont remember a day when it was better or faster by going with the tool. Oh wait, the first 3 days of cata it was - as my guild wasnt lvl 85 yet. But after this the best way of doing a dungeon always was with friends.

If they were offline then yes I could use the tool, something I did from time to time - but the groups were either horrible bad (in their manners) or friendly but totally unskilled. While having a group with bad manners always leads to me leaving them, does a group with unskilled lead to hours of wiping - which is not really a good investment for a casual.

 

1)Not everyone has 24/7 availability

 

If I have 1 or 2 hours a day to play, then I want to spend that time with friendly people who dont shout, ninja or just behave bad. Yes I might not always find these people, but atleast if I do I have fun.

To use the tool was always a nightmare for me, as the manners were just not acceptable after a day of work. Once again I am asking you, whats more fun. To always get into a dungeon if you play, or to get only in sometimes but if you do, having a blast? Id always choose the second way, if nobody is online then I log off or to an alt questing or some pvp. Even tho most people play at the same time, if you met friends then they will usually log on at the same time like you.

 

2)Think LFD causes problems? The old model was worse

 

And here you are wrong. If I come home after work, then I either spend time with the family or friends. The time with friends can be spend in RL or at a game, no necessarly an MMO.

If at an MMO, then I will know these people. I will know them because we are in the same guild, did add each other after several runs or because I do know them from RL too. Friends always share the same "life", else they would not be your friends. You cant be the friend of someone who does always work when you sleep, vise versa - how to build a friendship there?

Not saying friends are there all the time, but if you dont have your girlfriend in RL - do you then jump to a ******? You dont do this, do you? So why do this at an MMO or any other hobby?

If your friends are not there, then do stuff alone - or just play with strangers, but the experience with them can be bad or good, mostly bad tho (at games).

 

The major problem at wow is, that people did not make friends because a tool did give them "robots" to play with. By introducing such a tool now, how shall people make any friends? Its impossible.

3)The solution that worked for most gamers

 

You gave an example which can work like that, but mostly doesnt. Iam guessing you play on us servers, so youhave a different queue experience there. At Europe a dps does wait 40 min, at some days even longer. A tank does wait 1 or 2 minutes and a healer about 5-10 minutes.

Lets assume you are a dps, then you wait 40 minutes for your group. Then you get into a group, that group is either new formed or the rest of a wipe. Now you start the dungeon and most of the time wipe a few times, some people rage or in worst case you get kicked. Its not seldom that you waited for 40 mins, then wiped for 1 hour just to find yourself in town again, as you were kicked. In the end you just wasted 2 hours of your time and didnt finish anything.

While this is the worst case scenario, it does also apply to many groups that are found in the tool.

The perfect group as you were describing it, does seldom happen. Most of the times you got people that skip content, rage or just perform poorly - which is atleast from my experience not worth the "lazy move" of hitting a queue button, not worth the time at all.

 

4)Work odd hour or strangely irregular hours

 

Here I partly agree, even tho I do know that you can still find groups then. That group is only a minority tho and as sad it might sound, you can not make games for minorities. If the majority does not want such a tool due its bad influence, then this should matter and not the few people that work at night.

 

5)The player level bubble

 

I did lvl many chars and always found people. And if not, just skip it - nobody was forced to kill a world boss at wow.1)

 

2)The LFD killed WoW (or severely crippled it)

 

You came back, while many others left. I did play wow since alpha and I do know exactly how many people were around at what time. And its a fact that from vanilla on until mid TBC, the amount of people was growing.

At WOTLK it started to decrease slowly and many people I knew were gone and hardly new ones came in.

 

3)The majority of these people opposing the LFD are hypocrites

 

Wrong!

Things like nerf´s, 30% buff, additional loot were added so that people did actually use the LFD tool. If you did not use it, you had major disadvantages like gearing up slower. Also the nerfs were too heavy for those in premade groups, there was not a button which offered you unnerfed content.

Also you did not know that sitting in a town was not required to group. There was a tool at wow, just like the one we got here at Tor. You could add yourself to several raids or dungeons, yes even zones and group quest´s.

If someone was intrested in grouping then he would say so, or you could simply whisper them. There was never any need of spamming chat in a town (ofc you cant find groups like that, as nobody was doing it, except some who were "dumb"), every server had that tool and a world wide lfg chat. Using it was not somekind of forbidden fruit you know.

 

5)Players have diminished in quality since the LFD for reason X,Y, and Z

 

If you look for a group the old way, then you dont end up with players who dont want what you want.

If you use the tool, then you will. All that kicking if you wont skip bosses, perform poorly or dont want the ninja to take your gear - are things that came up with the tool. Its an illusion to think they happened before, especially if you as you said didnt find groups... so where does that experience come from? Was it a dream?

 

Fact is, the different opinions about MMO´s all collide at the LFD tool and this does make it so bad. You want us to understand that there are different groups playing MMO´s, yet you want the LFD tool - this is hypocricity.

6)The Z in “X,Y, and Z” is for laZy

 

People definately dont try anymore, thats a fact. If in past you wiped on a boss, then you tried again. Today its either a rage fest or a group kick or a leaving of the tank / healer - which leads to another queue time.

 

All I read here are some personal experiences and opinions. No facts.

[Gavin_Darkl]

All I read here are some personal experiences and opinions. No facts.

 

MalignX

 

I am not here to be a dick however lets bring up the Definition of Fact.

 

fact

   [fakt] Show IPA

noun

1.

something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.

2.

something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

3.

a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

4.

something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

5.

Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.

 

 

There are a lot of FACTS in her statement by the definition of FACT.

 

 

EDIT

 

6)The Z in “X,Y, and Z” is for laZy

 

People definately dont try anymore, thats a fact. If in past you wiped on a boss, then you tried again. Today its either a rage fest or a group kick or a leaving of the tank / healer - which leads to another queue time.

 

This is one of the reasons I left WoW is because in the LFD tool no one tries anymore. I seen groups break apart because of a single Wipe, Everyone lagged in the instance, everyone died people still left the group just because they died. This is a FACT. Even Blizzard will acknowledge this as a fact, before I left if you left a group during a certain time period you could not queue up again for like 15 minutes.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Gavin_Darkl

[Neiloch]

Its still not a fact to MalignX, or anyone else for that matter by that definition.

 

Ask any good scientist and they will tell you the absolute worst kind of evidence is personal testimony/experience. It may be the highest in courts of law but its the absolute lowest in science.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Neiloch

[MalignX]

Sorry, you are incorrect. They are just opinions.

 

opin·ion

noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\

Definition of OPINION

1

a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : approval, esteem

2

a : [B]belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view[/b]

3

a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

— opin·ioned adjective

See opinion defined for English-language learners »

See opinion defined for kids »

Examples of OPINION

 

We asked for their opinions about the new stadium.

In my opinion, it's the best car on the market.

The article discusses two recent Supreme Court opinions.

 

Origin of OPINION

Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari

First Known Use: 14th century

Related to OPINION

Synonyms: belief, conviction, eye, feeling, judgment (or judgement), mind, notion, persuasion, sentiment, verdict, view

[+]more

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX

[MalignX]

How about this? We can all post definitions.

 

 

be·lief

noun \bə-ˈlēf\

Definition of BELIEF

1

: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2

: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3

: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

See belief defined for English-language learners »

See belief defined for kids »

Examples of BELIEF

 

There is growing belief that these policies will not succeed.

He gets angry if anyone challenges his religious beliefs.

We challenged his beliefs about religion.

 

 

Or if you'd like.

 

1wrong

noun \ˈrȯŋ\

Definition of WRONG

1

a : an injurious, unfair, or unjust act : action or conduct inflicting harm without due provocation or just cause b : a violation or invasion of the legal rights of another; especially : tort

2

: something wrong, immoral, or unethical; especially : principles, practices, or conduct contrary to justice, goodness, equity, or law

3

: the state, position, or fact of being or doing wrong: as a : the state of being mistaken or incorrect[/i] b : the state of being guilty

See wrong defined for English-language learners »

See wrong defined for kids »

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX

[MalignX]

MalignX

 

I am not here to be a dick however lets bring up the Definition of Fact.

 

There are a lot of FACTS in her statement by the definition of FACT.

 

This is one of the reasons I left WoW is because in the LFD tool no one tries anymore. I seen groups break apart because of a single Wipe, Everyone lagged in the instance, everyone died people still left the group just because they died. This is a FACT. Even Blizzard will acknowledge this as a fact, before I left if you left a group during a certain time period you could not queue up again for like 15 minutes.

 

Just because you agree or want them to be true, still doesn't make them facts. Sorry.

Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX