PvP - How it is ...deal with it

[Fainflinnn]

I replied to someone complaining about expertise in another thread and wanted to repost it here.

 

First of all expertise is the stat that is rewarded on the gear of a PvP player...(ya i know you know this ).... More TIME you sink in the more of it you get.

 

So exertise is a defining stat of how much time one has spent playing.

So the guy that currently is lvl 50 that is living his life in the battleground is beating the crap outta the guy that just turned 50....And alot of ppl are whining cause he has more gear and its not fair. Here's how it works for you players that want to play very little and be rewarded for simply logging on:

 

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 168 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

Player A may be a better player and have more skill then Player B but Player B has more time to sink in and to get geared out so he can stomp Player A early game. Player A logs on forums yaps off in general chat and all in all just complains about how unfair the game is but in reality Player A needs to play for another 158 hours to catch up to Player B in gear.

 

A month or 2 go buy....

Player A is now as geared as Player B. The battle continues and Player B can't hold a candle to the might of Player A's skill. Player B now comes to the forums and pisses whines moans and complains cause Player A is now playing an "overpowered" class.

 

Another month goes buy...

Player C installs the game runs into Player B......the battle rages on.

 

Like every other MMO in exsistence ...there is a time commitment made and one that has to be achieved before you can be all crazy geared out regardless of how skiled you think you are. (most of you are terrible and are still learning to throw the ball and not stand on edges where warriors can leap at you).

 

Side Note: World PvP -- (not illum i'm mean actuall world pvp) - STOP ************ IF YOU GET CAMPED ON A PVP SERVER! ---- you rolled on a pvp server if someone wants to be a douche bag and pin you down and your to stupid to learn how to get away from them thats your problem and you shoulda rolled on a PvE server.

 

Fix the week to hour conversion rofl

Edited January 27, 2012 by Fainflinnn

[Roak]

I've dealt with it, I unsubbed

[Sabbathius]

In general, I agree.

 

However, some things are OBVIOUS. Self-evident.

 

Look at Sorcerers. Look at their 600 energy pool with linear renegeration.

 

Now, look at Sins. Look at their 110 energy pool with linear regeneration. Their abilities cost exactly the same amount of energy.

 

Now, look at Bounty Hunters. Their 100 heat pool has non-linear regeneration, go over 40 and it slows, go over 80 and it's a crawl, top if off and you're useless.

 

Now tell me, isn't it MUCH harder to manage a non-linear regen pool of 100 than a linear regen pool of 600? How can anyone with more than half a brain NOT see this as a problem? And then people wonder why Sorcerers are probably the most played class in the game?

[BDutch]

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 200 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/292083-pvp-update-discussion.html

 

Read about some of the overhaul Rift continues to do to try to bring it's dead PvP back to life. TLDR: people don't like repeatedly getting destroyed in PvP. They will not pay their dues. They will just stop doing that type of PvP.

 

It does not matter how justified someone thinks their rewards/advantages are. You can't PvP if you don't have people to PvP against.

[Pwny_Express]

I replied to someone complaining about expertise in another thread and wanted to repost it here.

 

First of all expertise is the stat that is rewarded on the gear of a PvP player...(ya i know you know this ).... More TIME you sink in the more of it you get.

 

Except that this kills PvP because the people who are more skilled (they've spent more time) are also given an inherent numerical advantage via gear. Their skill should be enough to keep them ahead of noobites. But instead people come in to be cannon fodder for what? Weeks? a Month? Until they get half a full set and can survive a bit. And seriously who wants to play PvP for hours if all you do is get 3-shot to death. How is that in any way a fun game that encourages new people to try PvP?

 

They need to add incentives to beginning PvPers to join up, not to just turn them off by saying, hey come PvP so you can die in 5 seconds. It's FUN! What happens when nobody tries out PvP anymore because of it? (see RIFT)

 

Empty world PvP

Underpopulated warzones - Long queue times

 

It just makes it worse for everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 200 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

What Player B doesn't realize is that a week doesn't have 8 days.

 

 

 

Player A may be a better player and have more skill then Player B but Player B has more time to sink in and to get geared out so he can stomp Player A early game. Player A logs on forums yaps off in general chat and all in all just complains about how unfair the game is but in reality Player A needs to play for another 190 hours to catch up to Player B in gear.

 

A month or 2 go buy....

Player A is now as geared as Player B. The battle continues and Player B can't hold a candle to the might of Player A's skill. Player B now comes to the forums and pisses whines moans and complains cause Player A is now playing an "overpowered" class.

 

Another month goes buy...

Player C installs the game runs into Player B......the battle rages on.

 

 

As stated above...until people get tired of being punching bags for 2 months and stop logging in, and then PvP dies.

 

There are better ways to do rewards systems than gear. Unfortunately no company yet has had the courage to break the mold of "standard MMO".

[Roak]

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 200 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

Their gear should be the same, the outcome of a fight should be largely based on the skill of the 2 players.

 

Player B could have a higher pvp rank, a different looking uniform (exclusive skins), and some pvp abilities (2nd stun breaker, an in combat heal, bubble etc). All these are better than giving player B an inherent and extremely noticable step up purely off his gear.

 

Make it so winning advances rank and losing decreases it and (firstly most ******* would quit) then player A and player B might even be the same rank

Edited January 27, 2012 by Roak

[Thrones]

i just wish they do something about being rewared by rng , atleast in pve there's always someone getting geared making the encounter move forward. Thus you look forward any way, but due to the rng, some groups in pvp get 0 gear ;o

[origional]

When you have level 10 to 49 achieving a more competative balance than a single level does because of the gear they get then there is clearly a problem with that gear. Does that concept not register with people or is it just those who have all the gear and dont want to lose their advantage that 'dont get it'. Edited January 27, 2012 by origional

[BDutch]

When you have level 10 to 49 achieving a more competative balance that a single level does because of the gear they get then there is clearly a problem with that gear. Does that concept not register with people or is it just those who have all the gear and dont want to lose their advantage that 'dont get it'.

 

I honestly think it's just everyone from WoW seeing the uber epics with item level 140 and assuming that SWTOR must be able to work with the same level of item inflation. Unfortunately, the rest of WoW isn't there to support this.

[Aedn]

When you have level 10 to 49 achieving a more competative balance that a single level does because of the gear they get then there is clearly a problem with that gear. Does that concept not register with people or is it just those who have all the gear and dont want to lose their advantage that 'dont get it'.

 

All they need to do is put the blue 50 set back in the game, with 6-8% expertise, so that he gap isnt as wide. IF they remove expertise all together, then the pve raid gear will just be the best gear for PVP in the game. I really have no interest in raiding rakata gear just to pvp. WoW already went down that road early on, and it was the same as expertise in the end.

 

Even if you give all the fresh 50s blue gear, with 8% expertise, many will still get crushed, because most of them do not know how to play at all in pvp. Its pretty easy to look at a scoreboard and see who is decent and who is not, just by damage done, kd/ratios and everything else.

[staysa]

I've dealt with it, I unsubbed

 

This ^

[Dogfatherxx]

There are so many problems with PVP in this game, this is just one of them. I do not see BW making any fundamental changes to thier PVP system as a whole, but I do anticipate that they will end up nerfing some classes.

[cashogy]

whoa, time out here. jedi have linear regen pools? what the fkuc bioware.

 

i play merc, and the exponential decay regen crap is absolute BS. vent heat barely does squat, if i pop it when at full heat i have 2, maybe 3 abilities before i am back at max heat and cant do anything but spam rapid shots. im basically useless for 15-30 seconds while i derp around waiting for my heat to drop into the fast regen zone.

 

meanwhile, youre telling me that a sith/jedi is constantly regen'ing at the same rate. that means any ability with a channel or cast time is basically free; by the time they finish the cast they have regen'd the energy they just spent.

 

yeah that totally makes sense :|

[Malstrades]

whoa, time out here. jedi have linear regen pools? what the fkuc bioware.

 

i play merc, and the exponential decay regen crap is absolute BS. vent heat barely does squat, if i pop it when at full heat i have 2, maybe 3 abilities before i am back at max heat and cant do anything but spam rapid shots. im basically useless for 15-30 seconds while i derp around waiting for my heat to drop into the fast regen zone.

 

meanwhile, youre telling me that a sith/jedi is constantly regen'ing at the same rate. that means any ability with a channel or cast time is basically free; by the time they finish the cast they have regen'd the energy they just spent.

 

yeah that totally makes sense :|

 

only sorc/sage class, the mellee jedi/sith have no focus to start with, they have to build it up to do any reall dmg or even to interupt/cc.

[Fainflinnn]

Except that this kills PvP because the people who are more skilled (they've spent more time) are also given an inherent numerical advantage via gear. Their skill should be enough to keep them ahead of noobites. But instead people come in to be cannon fodder for what? Weeks? a Month? Until they get half a full set and can survive a bit. And seriously who wants to play PvP for hours if all you do is get 3-shot to death.

 

 

See the incentive is the medals.

The early game PvP while aquiring gear is a hit and run style play simlar to league of legends.

If your warrior melee range type player .....u leap in throw a couple slaps ....to your cc stuff and run the hell away. Your supposed to contribute to your team in a warzone not be the player that is able to kill everyoen toe to toe ......as you aquire more gear your able to sit in the combat for a longer duration and pull off more abilities and get some kills before ya have to pull out of combat.

Ranged players are favored here cause they can rack up points and not have to run away as much as melee.

 

Yes your going to get 3 shot from time to time. Eventually your gonna 3 shot ppl form time to time yourself.

 

If all your doing is running in and getting killed over and over and over ......stop running in to much ....its pvp! you have to pick and choose your moments to be combatant. You cant just run in go toe to toe with someone totally geared.

 

The games incentive for early players is to pick your poitns of attack and get the extra medals for valor to gear up faster.

I've got a gear sith warrior that had to pick and choose his moments and now that he is geared i can fight toe to toe.

I have a total no gear bountyhunter where i'm still playing the hit and run style while i aquire gear.

 

There is definatly some class balancing issues and probably always will be but thats not the topic i started this thread with.

 

Exepertise is the stat rewarded for time put in and allows you to pull away from the hit and run style of play.

 

My fully geared sith warrior loves feeding off you undergeared guys that want to go toe to toe, on the other side I hate them little bastards that pick me off from range or use there CC to slow me down so there team can take me out.

 

guess point of the story is .....if yoru getting 3 shot cause ya keep running in and dying ...learn to play better all the gear in the world isnt gonna help ya get any better just gonna make ya get 6 shot like an idiot in the middle of the ring.

[Mekrath]

 

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 200 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

This to me is the fundamental problem with the expertise system. Hoping someday an MMO comes along that takes gear out of PvP and makes it all about skill.

 

Skill to me should be the deciding factor regardless of how much time someone spends playing.

[Mekrath]

i just wish they do something about being rewared by rng , atleast in pve there's always someone getting geared making the encounter move forward. Thus you look forward any way, but due to the rng, some groups in pvp get 0 gear ;o

 

Exactly. If you MUST have a gear based system, and if I am forced to 'pay my dues' by getting my *** kicked until I have gear, at LEAST make my every failed attempt at PvP get me a little bit closer to competing. If I PvP all day and get duplicates of Champion gear I already have or cneturion tokens, I'm no better off than I was yesterday.

[Lividcalm]

So exertise is a defining stat of how much time one has spent playing.

So the guy that currently is lvl 50 that is living his life in the battleground is beating the crap outta the guy that just turned 50....And alot of ppl are whining cause he has more gear and its not fair. Here's how it works for you players that want to play very little and be rewarded for simply logging on:

 

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 200 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

Player A may be a better player and have more skill then Player B but Player B has more time to sink in and to get geared out so he can stomp Player A early game. Player A logs on forums yaps off in general chat and all in all just complains about how unfair the game is but in reality Player A needs to play for another 190 hours to catch up to Player B in gear.

 

So what you're saying is, those that have no life and can sit all day and play will always have the advantage over those who have a life and responsibilities and can not dedicate 200 hours a week (there arent even 200 hours in a week, but I am using your logic). Ok, so in 6 months the game will be Free To Play and filled with pimply faced 13 years olds, cause all the mature players with responsibilities and lives will have unsubbed cause we really don't want to deal with all the trolls who think like this, and use terms like pwned and noob to describe those who do have lives out side of gaming.

 

Then this game will truly be like WoW.

 

Wonderful.

 

Edit: To use this as an example. I play Battlefield 3. Of course there are those that play 16 hours a day, but I can't. Although since I am a skilled FPS player I can hold my own against these folks regardless of the fact that I play maybe 6 hours a week. So you see, skill does not equate to time played.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Lividcalm

[Roak]

So what you're saying is, those that have no life and can sit all day and play will always have the advantage over those who have a life and responsibilities and can not dedicate 200 hours a week (there arent even 200 hours in a week, but I am using your logic). Ok, so in 6 months the game will be Free To Play and filled with pimply faced 13 years olds, cause all the mature players with responsibilities and lives will have unsubbed cause we really don't want to deal with all the trolls who use terms like pwned and noob.

 

Then this game will truly be like WoW.

 

Wonderful.

 

not disagreeing with you but having responsibilities does not mean you have a life, I've worked hard to avoid responsibility and I like my life tyvm

[Lividcalm]

not disagreeing with you but having responsibilities does not mean you have a life, I've worked hard to avoid responsibility and I like my life tyvm

 

LOL

 

You know what I mean. I'm as lazy as the next guy, and avoid responsibilities as well, but life does not play fair.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Lividcalm

[Mekrath]

So what you're saying is, those that have no life and can sit all day and play will always have the advantage over those who have a life and responsibilities and can not dedicate 200 hours a week (there arent even 200 hours in a week, but I am using your logic). Ok, so in 6 months the game will be Free To Play and filled with pimply faced 13 years olds, cause all the mature players with responsibilities and lives will have unsubbed cause we really don't want to deal with all the trolls who think like this, and use terms like pwned and noob to describe those who do have lives out side of gaming.

 

Then this game will truly be like WoW.

 

Wonderful.

 

Edit: To use this as an example. I play Battlefield 3. Of course there are those that play 16 hours a day, but I can't. Although since I am a skilled FPS player I can hold my own against these folks regardless of the fact that I play maybe 6 hours a week. So you see, skill does not equate to time played.

 

 

This is a problem. SWTOR was supposed to be casual friendly, and it is from level 1-49. At level 50 it becomes a completely different game with a grind that no casual player is going to be willing to do.

[Treebyrn]

http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/292083-pvp-update-discussion.html

 

Read about some of the overhaul Rift continues to do to try to bring it's dead PvP back to life. TLDR: people don't like repeatedly getting destroyed in PvP. They will not pay their dues. They will just stop doing that type of PvP.

 

It does not matter how justified someone thinks their rewards/advantages are. You can't PvP if you don't have people to PvP against.

 

I have been saying this from the very begining... some people just do not get it and they think there will be an un-ending player pool to which they can slaughter nightly. At some point that player pool is going to dry up and all that will be left is the HAVEs that have not grown bored with the game.

 

Those people who remain will then start making post "Why is pvp dead?" "Why does it take 1 hour for a warzone pop? (btw people are already complaining about lev 50 queue times). Those people will then quit themselves and move onto some other game where they can spend countless hours grinding to the top and then spend countless more hours defending their position on top of the mountain thus driving off a nice % of the player base.

 

I for one do not mind being at a slight disadvantage in pvp but I want the pvp to be fun and meaningful and none of this is possible with out an active player base.

[Resych]

Your time vs reward argument is flawed due to the random gear bags system. I've played warzones along side a friend since launch, I have almost a full set of champ pvp gear and 5 duplicates and he has 0 champion gear and some centurion gear. We've both put in the same amount of time yet very different expertise ratings.

[basketballbum]

I replied to someone complaining about expertise in another thread and wanted to repost it here.

 

First of all expertise is the stat that is rewarded on the gear of a PvP player...(ya i know you know this ).... More TIME you sink in the more of it you get.

 

So exertise is a defining stat of how much time one has spent playing.

So the guy that currently is lvl 50 that is living his life in the battleground is beating the crap outta the guy that just turned 50....And alot of ppl are whining cause he has more gear and its not fair. Here's how it works for you players that want to play very little and be rewarded for simply logging on:

 

Player A spends 10 hours a week playing this game. Player B spends 200 hours a week playing this game. Player A things he should be at the same normalized gear level as Player B? I think NOT.

 

Player A may be a better player and have more skill then Player B but Player B has more time to sink in and to get geared out so he can stomp Player A early game. Player A logs on forums yaps off in general chat and all in all just complains about how unfair the game is but in reality Player A needs to play for another 190 hours to catch up to Player B in gear.

 

A month or 2 go buy....

Player A is now as geared as Player B. The battle continues and Player B can't hold a candle to the might of Player A's skill. Player B now comes to the forums and pisses whines moans and complains cause Player A is now playing an "overpowered" class.

 

Another month goes buy...

Player C installs the game runs into Player B......the battle rages on.

 

Like every other MMO in exsistence ...there is a time commitment made and one that has to be achieved before you can be all crazy geared out regardless of how skiled you think you are. (most of you are terrible and are still learning to throw the ball and not stand on edges where warriors can leap at you).

 

Side Note: World PvP -- (not illum i'm mean actuall world pvp) - STOP ************ IF YOU GET CAMPED ON A PVP SERVER! ---- you rolled on a pvp server if someone wants to be a douche bag and pin you down and your to stupid to learn how to get away from them thats your problem and you shoulda rolled on a PvE server.

 

Other than your math with the 200 hours a week since that isn't possible, I agree with you. I think the problem is the difficulty people are having in getting dailys done once they hit 50. Right now and in the future if you are a fresh 50 you are going to have a heck of a time getting your warzone dailys done due to premades and wins not counting. All you can do is hope that you get on the team with the group of premade battlemasters. I am not saying there is anything wrong with premades.

 

Right now the people that have the best gear have put a lot of time in but there is also a lot of luck involved such as how often they got armor drops from the bags. I think a good way around this is make the daily based on completion of warzones but a win of a warzone could count as two towards the daily and make the daily requirement 6 or 8 or something. This will also discourage people from leaving warzones in the middle of them since they would still get some credit for completing them. This would reward those who win more while still providing fresh 50's with a way to do their dailys and get gear by putting time into pvp.

[Pwny_Express]

All they need to do is put the blue 50 set back in the game, with 6-8% expertise, so that he gap isnt as wide. IF they remove expertise all together, then the pve raid gear will just be the best gear for PVP in the game. I really have no interest in raiding rakata gear just to pvp. WoW already went down that road early on, and it was the same as expertise in the end.

 

Even if you give all the fresh 50s blue gear, with 8% expertise, many will still get crushed, because most of them do not know how to play at all in pvp. Its pretty easy to look at a scoreboard and see who is decent and who is not, just by damage done, kd/ratios and everything else.

 

A better solution is to remove expertise, and add a PvE raid stat. Then people who want to raid get better gear for raiding, and people who don't don't have to worry about it because they aren't going on any raids anyway.