Papineau Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Except that Qui-Gon (the first thing Anakin gets to see as "The Jedi Order") is a rebellious, lying, cheating, thief... He lied to the Gungans a few times just to get what he wanted, Cheated Watto a couple times (once even using the force to cheat), and attempted to outright steal the part for the ship from Watto by using the force to MAKE him take absolutely worthless republic credits-he may as well have attempted to break in at night and just take it (when he wasn't able to, he fell back on plan B - CHEAT)... Qui-Gon was FAR from a good role model, I am amazed Obi-Wan turned out ANYTHING like he did... Well I think that's because of what you say that Obi Wan has turned out to be one heck of a jedi. Qui-Gon obviously is a rebel but in times he's proven his worth as Obi-Wan mention to in the Phantom Menace; he would already be on the council if he cared more about following the code. I see an analogy between Obi/Qui-Gon as a good and bad cop, both are on the side of the law but their way differs sometimes greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areto Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Note: Darth Vader did bring balance to the force eventually by killing himself and the emperor (ignoring books). So the prophecy was essentially correct, it just wasn't easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkanna Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Essay tl:dr Seriously though, epic! Never thought of it like that, it makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRCHalifax Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Well I think that's because of what you say that Obi Wan has turned out to be one heck of a jedi. Qui-Gon obviously is a rebel but in times he's proven his worth as Obi-Wan mention to in the Phantom Menace; he would already be on the council if he cared more about following the code. I see an analogy between Obi/Qui-Gon as a good and bad cop, both are on the side of the law but their way differs sometimes greatly. Obi-Wan as a Jedi was amazing. Obi-Wan as a teacher was a failure. As a Jedi, Obi-Wan absorbed all of the important lessons Qui-Gon taught. As a teacher, he held to the strict Jedi Code. Yoda was just as bad at it. I agree and believe that had Obi-Wan trained Anakin like Qui-Gon would have, Anakin's fall would be averted. The result would have been a conversation like this: Anakin: Master, I keep dreaming about my mother, in pain. Obi-Wan: Anakin, do you believe that this is a vision through the Force? Anakin: Yes, master. I'll try to focus on the mission though. Obi-Wan: Anakin, what does your heart tell you to do? Anakin: To go to her. Obi-Wan: It occurs to me that no one would think of looking for Senator Amidala on Tatooine. I'll ask that Master Windu take over the investigation into where the assassin came from. As for the expanded universe, quality varies greatly. I'm a fan of the Timothy Zahn novels, the Stockpole and Alliston novels are also usually worth reading. Any of the comics by Jon Ostrander are worth reading, especially his Legacy of the Jedi series with Jan Duursema. The expanded universe provides us with what I consider the optimal version of the Jedi Code ("Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force."), and I was surprised to find one of the better explanations for how Luke Skywalker sees the what it means to be a Jedi in one of the more recent novels: "to protect those who were victimized and could not defend themselves. To trust, to love, to be willing to give of oneself. To fight and risk one's life for those ideals" (Ascension, page 190). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I've always been of the opinion that Qui-Gon, had he lived, would have managed to keep Anakin on the Light Side. He understood a great deal about human emotion, loss, and how to deal with it. The council worked directly against Anakin's feelings, but Qui-Gon would have worked with him. I dunno, I think this is a bit undermined by the fact that the prequels kind of waffle between Anakin falling due to his love for Padme, and Anakin falling because he is self-absorbed and doesn't think the other Jedi give him enough respect for how totally awesome he is. Yes, the Orders obsession with tradition and the Code rendered them blind to the painfully obvious, but Anakin did kind of let Palpatine lead him down the garden path just because he stroked his ego. Look at the whole debacle with the Council. Palpatine appoints Anakin to the Council in a purely political move and straight up tells him he wants him to spy on the Order for him, Anakin gets upset because shockingly the rest of the Council doesn't rush to pay their respects for his blatantly political appointment, then suddenly gets self-righteous and offended when they ask him to keep an eye on the Chancellor for them. A lot of the tragedy of Anakin's fall is blunted by the fact that he spends a lot of time acting like a self-important brat. Edited February 2, 2012 by jovianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almightyzeruel Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If you think about it Anakin did actually bring balance to the force, for a thousand years there has been 2 sith, after the events of episode 3 there was 2 jedi, perfect balance. 'A prophecy misread, could have been' or whatever Yoda said. But back to the main topic it was Anakin's arrogance and faith in himself that led him to the dark side. Anakin was constantly acting out against Obi Wan in the second movie (like a spoilt teenager if you ask me), back then he even started to think his abilities were exceeding his masters. All the council tried to do was instill some humility in Anakin, which as we all saw ended quite badly. It wasn't the jedi's fault at all, Anakin was just cocky and Palatine was well aware of that and exploited it to the fullest (i.e putting him on the council to further inflame his ego and put him at odds with the council). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heley Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Thank you. I was worried I'd be met with "TL, DR." This is what happens when people post well thought out posts with good grammar. Kudos to your post sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzNasty Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If someone was waving a lightsaber at my poor grandma or grandpa I'd cut even Sam Jackson's hand off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkestDaemon Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If someone was waving a lightsaber at my poor grandma or grandpa I'd cut even Sam Jackson's hand off. I'd wonder why the man Samuel L. is waving a lightsaber at just aged 50 years first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkMorlin Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Very good post by MRCHalifax, but I disagree on the first part. Obi-wan and Yoda had a plan all along. LnL were the last hopes, but Palps and Vader would sense them the minute they began their force training. How long is a half trained 12 year old going to last when Darth Vader shows up to convert them? The plan was to raise them in good families hoping one would grow up to be a well rounded and moral individual. Now, Luke, in his mid twenties goes through a quick training regimen. Now, you have what Vader was supposed to be, Luke as the Chosen One, well trained by Obi-wan and Yoda, incredibly powerful in the force, with the strong moral fiber to resist the Dark side. Also consider the timing, just as Luke is reaching his prime, the Rebellion Obi-wan and Yoda have been secretly manipulating to peak just as Luke is ready to lead it is coming to a head. So Obi-wan and Yoda (the Jedi) have managed to: 1) Train the Chosen one, Luke the stable, not Anakin the Emo 2) Create a well funded and supplied rebellion for him to lead Vader and Palpatine (the Sith) have managed to: 1) Institute a strict Facist rule that has ensured a rebellion 2) Become so paranoid that they have eliminated all thier rivals for power, insuring the empires demise should they be lost The Jedi are nothing if not adaptable. They realized the error of their ways, and adopted Palpatine's tactics to manipulate things behind the scenes.......everything is ready, and then...... Leia brings things to a head and kicks off the rebellion before they are ready, nearly bringing down the whole plan! But then, dun-da-duh-da...dun-da-duh! Han Solo shows up and saves the galaxy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRCHalifax Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Very good post by MRCHalifax, but I disagree on the first part. Obi-wan and Yoda had a plan all along. LnL were the last hopes, but Palps and Vader would sense them the minute they began their force training. How long is a half trained 12 year old going to last when Darth Vader shows up to convert them? The plan was to raise them in good families hoping one would grow up to be a well rounded and moral individual. Now, Luke, in his mid twenties goes through a quick training regimen. Fair enough. I still think that Yoda and Obi-Wan were at best going with the flow and keeping their heads down, but this does help explain why they took that approach. The question is how long they would have waited - Yoda seems to have died from natural causes, and Obi-Wan looked old for his age as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ujiomizuko Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hello, It occurs to me that the Jedi were the primary driving force that moved Anakin to the Dark Side. They asked him to spy on someone, which involved lying and treachery. Then Mace Windu attempted to murder a prisoner instead of arresting him. If the Jedi hadn't made these questionable decisions, it seems likely that Anakin would not have fallen at the pivotal moment when he did. Indeed, at the moment that Anakin interfered with Mace Windu assassinating a prisoner, Mace was making a Dark choice and Anakin's choice could be easily deemed more morally correct. Anakin is just an idiot.. He apparently had NO problem whatsoever with slaughtering tuskens, and he was ready and willing to kill palpatine when he revealed himself as a sith.. He also murdered dooku in cold blood as well, yet when palpatine kills 3 other masters, and tries to kills mace, he suddenly has a problem with it.. "I NEEEEED HIIIIIM!!!!".. Self serving ***** if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXCheXGuevaraXx Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Hello, It occurs to me that the Jedi were the primary driving force that moved Anakin to the Dark Side. They asked him to spy on someone, which involved lying and treachery. Then Mace Windu attempted to murder a prisoner instead of arresting him. If the Jedi hadn't made these questionable decisions, it seems likely that Anakin would not have fallen at the pivotal moment when he did. Indeed, at the moment that Anakin interfered with Mace Windu assassinating a prisoner, Mace was making a Dark choice and Anakin's choice could be easily deemed more morally correct. "In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest, Chancellor." Edited February 2, 2012 by xXCheXGuevaraXx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xeviltoasterx Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 "In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest, Chancellor." "He's too dangerous to be left alive." They planned to arrest him, but by the end of the fight Mace had every intention to kill him. And rightfully so, regardless of the Jedi way. He was right, after all...he was too dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowanThursday Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Did Mace Windu's attitude contribute towards Anakin's fall? Yes, I'd say is probably the short answer- but then, so did a mass of other things- including the foolishly entrenched-in-dogma nature of Jedi teachings at the time, Obi-Wan and Yoda's mistakes, and Palpatine's ability to *use* all of the above to manoeuvre Anakin into being the person he wanted him to be. Windu was the last person who should ever have been in a mentoring role, given his apparent inability to bend even one fraction of a degree in order to be supportive to anybody... and Palpatine used that, pushed Anakin into situations where he'd come to dislike Mace Windu's obnoxiousness more and more, until ultimately Palpatine was able to set up a situation where the balance in Anakin's head could be neatly tipped to where *he* wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hello, It occurs to me that the Jedi were the primary driving force that moved Anakin to the Dark Side. They asked him to spy on someone, which involved lying and treachery. Then Mace Windu attempted to murder a prisoner instead of arresting him. If the Jedi hadn't made these questionable decisions, it seems likely that Anakin would not have fallen at the pivotal moment when he did. Indeed, at the moment that Anakin interfered with Mace Windu assassinating a prisoner, Mace was making a Dark choice and Anakin's choice could be easily deemed more morally correct. Their goal was to do the opposite, they knew he was changing and Ani has done so many things that should have gotten him punished or almost exiled. But he was too valuable for them to lose. Anakin knew by telling Mace they were going to kill Palpatine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) "He's too dangerous to be left alive." They planned to arrest him, but by the end of the fight Mace had every intention to kill him. And rightfully so, regardless of the Jedi way. He was right, after all...he was too dangerous. He said that after an intense lightsaber battle and being nearly electrocuted by the Most Powerful Sith Lord's lightning. Sidious was BENDING Mace's LIGHTSABER. Mace would have never been to kill him, Sidous was playing helpless.. Edited February 5, 2012 by BrandonSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyDog Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hello, It occurs to me that the Jedi were the primary driving force that moved Anakin to the Dark Side. They asked him to spy on someone, which involved lying and treachery. Then Mace Windu attempted to murder a prisoner instead of arresting him. If the Jedi hadn't made these questionable decisions, it seems likely that Anakin would not have fallen at the pivotal moment when he did. Indeed, at the moment that Anakin interfered with Mace Windu assassinating a prisoner, Mace was making a Dark choice and Anakin's choice could be easily deemed more morally correct. Try as you might you will NEVER justify the sith. They murdered children and built a friggin death star and destroyed an entire heavily populated planet. Jedi might have made some questionable choices but it was not the norm. Sith being evil was. The devil is not some poor misunderstood soul, hes an evil bat rastard. AND it reflects in this game. 90%+ of the hacking and abusing I see is the empire. Is that the Jedi's fault as well? Polish that turd all you want but its still just a shiny turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papineau Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Try as you might you will NEVER justify the sith. They murdered children and built a friggin death star and destroyed an entire heavily populated planet. Jedi might have made some questionable choices but it was not the norm. Sith being evil was. The devil is not some poor misunderstood soul, hes an evil bat rastard. AND it reflects in this game. 90%+ of the hacking and abusing I see is the empire. Is that the Jedi's fault as well? Polish that turd all you want but its still just a shiny turd. I sense much hate in this post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaneG Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I blame Obi-Wan, if he treated Anakin the same way he did Luke instead of being such an over critical A-hole, Anakin would have never had to turn to Palpatine for guidance and a friendly shoulder. I firmly believe that if Qui-Gon had survived and trained Anakin, Vader would never have come to exist. Obi Wan was also 30 Years or older when he met Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaneG Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Try as you might you will NEVER justify the sith. They murdered children and built a friggin death star and destroyed an entire heavily populated planet. Jedi might have made some questionable choices but it was not the norm. Sith being evil was. The devil is not some poor misunderstood soul, hes an evil bat rastard. AND it reflects in this game. 90%+ of the hacking and abusing I see is the empire. Is that the Jedi's fault as well? Polish that turd all you want but its still just a shiny turd. Beware your feelings lead to the Dark Side will they Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire-Wolf Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 That's the reason the prequels are so much better then the originals. The plot is so much deeper and the characters aren't just black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBelisarius Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Flash forward a few years. Without further training, Luke's natural abilities are growing. He can perform minor telekinesis, enhance himself to improve his shooting and intuition, etc. Obi-Wan appears and sends him to Yoda. Yoda is even more reluctant than Obi-Wan was. He's afraid of training another Skywalker, particularly since Luke is a) way, way too much like his father, b) just as powerful as his father, c) way, way too old to begin the training. Yoda would probably have preferred Leia, if he had to choose between them, but either way he figures that no good could come of this. Obi-Wan basically brow-beats him into doing it, and Yoda starts to train Luke against his better judgment. Luke begins his training, and Yoda starts to get even more frightened. Luke's ability to use the Force is growing exponentially. Lessons that should have taken years to be fully absorbed are taking days, or even just hours. In the space of a month, Luke goes from being barely able to sense the Force to being nearly a match for Vader. Yoda tries to keep Luke from getting cocky with the Cave test, and it helps. Later, another attempt to keep Luke humble almost backfires. Luke's X-Wing sinks under the water, and Yoda tells him to lift it out. Luke tries, and almost succeeds, and Yoda is bug-eyed with shock (seriously, watch his face as the X-Wing starts to come up, he's flabbergasted). Luke fails, and Yoda puts on his Serene Face, and lifts it out. Object lesson successful, but Yoda nearly screwed that one up too. You have to realize that with luke's "training" or not, we do not see all which obi-wan had asked luke to practice. Also yoda really did not that much qualms with training luke. He was going to give it his best shot, but yoda of course had his doubts, who wouldn't? Also the force acts on situations like "fate" luke destroyed the death star because it was his destiny. Sure it is a cop-out but it fits really well with author's prerogative, that it was the "force" (fate) that set these things in motion. Luke was never a match for Vader; in Empire he got man-handled, in RotJ, Vader again still did not want to kill his son, and gave up. Vader was defeated because of what Vader decided to do, with the help of luke his son. Vader killed the emperor, Vader could of had Luke killed so many times during the OT. I understand people wanting Luke to be an amazing "superhero" but I like that it was a little more complex, especially with the father son relationship that won the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBelisarius Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 He said that after an intense lightsaber battle and being nearly electrocuted by the Most Powerful Sith Lord's lightning. Sidious was BENDING Mace's LIGHTSABER. Mace would have never been to kill him, Sidous was playing helpless.. I didn't see Mace's Lightsaber get bent, Mace would of won if it wasn't for Anakin chopping off his arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surakis Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hello, It occurs to me that the Jedi were the primary driving force that moved Anakin to the Dark Side. They asked him to spy on someone, which involved lying and treachery. Then Mace Windu attempted to murder a prisoner instead of arresting him. If the Jedi hadn't made these questionable decisions, it seems likely that Anakin would not have fallen at the pivotal moment when he did. Indeed, at the moment that Anakin interfered with Mace Windu assassinating a prisoner, Mace was making a Dark choice and Anakin's choice could be easily deemed more morally correct. Anakin didn't care about the kill of prisoners (See Count Dooku). He only cared because he thought the Chancellor could save his wife (he shouldn't have had). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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