Why is Crafted Gear not the best?

[Jahor]

Look, the truth of the matter is, you're going to get decent rewards for doing solo content, but the absolute best rewards are going to come from group content. Because devs are always going to encourage group play a bit more than always stayin solo. Because that's the meat of an MMO, group play. They are going to encourage socialising more than being alone. As I said, solo players will get nice schwag; stuff that will be more than efficient for their style of play. But if you want the best stuff in the game, get in a group. That's how MMOs work. *shrug*

 

And where is the problem if each profession has 1 or 2 items, which are at last on paar (level 58) with raiding and PvP which you are able to sell over the Kiosk after you invested 1+ mil coins and ~1 week of perma craft pushing?

 

Armor + Synt: Level 58 Belts and Bracers

Weapon: Level 58 Shotguns + Vibro Swords/Kniefs (+ maybe Electro staffs)

 

Just as EXCAMPLE

 

- I Don't expect all items to be on paar, but at last they must be as good as the best stuff you can get from singel player content (level 51 daily stuff).

- And I expect to be able to have one or two items peer profesions, which ARE the top gear (bind on pickup).

- And I expect to have some gear, which is on paar with best multi player stuff which I can sell over the Kiosk.

 

Want a full level 58? You MUST raid or PvP!

Get your finger on some level 58 items? Check the Kiosk first and bring ingame money .

[angrYdog]

cause crafting is to easy..

[Chromiie]

cause crafting is to easy..

 

The way it is now obviously it would take real work to make it worth while and not some after thought. I'm just surprised really at how their is no crafting endgame.

[Avandus]

cause crafting is to easy..

 

I was shocked when i reaced lvl 50 and 400 in cybertech realising that anything i could craft besides my BoP grenades i could allready get better by doing easy dailys, including pvp dailys on ilum.

 

Still they made crafting obligatory by the BoP items.

[ElevenBGrunt]

Totally disagree why would you even do pvp/pve if you can just go buy mats and make the best gear in game totally against what you say i dont see how you can possible believe what your saying.

 

Your a hero your meant to spend your time fighting for your faction not studying to make better gear thats why the armor vendors have good gear they spend all their time finding out how to make better gear.

 

The bosses have really good gear cause they force someone above the armor vendors to make it for them or they just killed them and took their stuff.

[Phaedrynn]

Thats why it failed hard.

 

That's funny, since it had a player base as large as any other MMO of it's era up UNTIL it made group PvE content a requirement for high end gear. ToA is what killed the game and caused people to quit.

 

However, having said that, DAoC was not designed to be PvE oriented at end game. Nor was SWG. Unfortunately SWTOR went the route of time=gear like so many others. Plenty of people will be happy doing to gear treadmill again, so it's likely to remain that way. Besides, it would take a major redesign (and we know how well those work out for MMOs) to change it now. The game just cannot handle a system where gear isn't the focus.

[Gleneagle]

Huge balancing issues would come into play.

Those same balancing issues are/will be already present whether you exclude those who don't run Ops or PvP or not. Your point is completely irrelevant.

So only crafters can be overpowered?

An MMO should be inclusive, and some people who play MMOs are shy. Obviously I am not shy, but we all know people who are. The design should be at least as respectful toward them as it is toward those who want to control everyone else. It isn't like they should be second class players; they should not be excluded, they too should have the option of being able to excel in their craft, and their craft should have value. The current model does not render adequate value to any crew skill other than bio.

 

Crafters who neither raid nor PvP should not be excluded from having/making/selling products equal to the best in the game.

[crowncrow]

The current crafting system with companions as your "workforce" is here to stay. Its not like we can start taking companions on raids, I hear that more companions will be added in the future.

 

I suppose that BW put all this here for a reason and no matter which way we look at it they have to either fix crafting it or remove it all together.

 

Some of you obviously don't give a damn about crafting as long as you get new raids to grind on regular bases. That's all cool but it doesn't change the fact that a proper crafting system with its supporting economy can be a pinnacle in community building, a gameplay that doesn't alienate anyone and encourages MMO interaction beyond the need&greed of a raid nerd.

 

I would like a game where nerds of all play styles can unite.

Edited January 29, 2012 by crowncrow

[Gleneagle]

What's the point of endgame raiding then?

 

What was the point or raiding originally, before it was realized they were hard and player characters needed to be optimal? Players started grinding the best gear in order to provide the best performance possible. That implies there is a better and a worse, and that necessarily suggest there is something valued. The gear wasn't the objective; gear was for the sake of something else.

 

The point of endgame raiding is the same whether you are optimally equipped or not. You are a raider: Tell us what the point of raiding is and you will have answered your own question.

[Gleneagle]

...

i would like to ask why do you need the "BEST" gear in the game if you are not raiding or doing pvp?

There is more to the game than raids and PvP.

 

Just because those are the only things you left yourself to do doesn't mean everyone else didn't have the foresight to know a new game won't have much content at endgame.

 

The limitations of your gamestyle should not exclude the rest of us from good gear.

[Abanoth]

Because the MMO-addict formula everyone follows nowadays won't allow it.

[Toxophile]

Totally disagree why would you even do pvp/pve if you can just go buy mats and make the best gear in game totally against what you say i dont see how you can possible believe what your saying.

 

Your a hero your meant to spend your time fighting for your faction not studying to make better gear thats why the armor vendors have good gear they spend all their time finding out how to make better gear.

 

The bosses have really good gear cause they force someone above the armor vendors to make it for them or they just killed them and took their stuff.

 

I think I finally understand where many of the anti-fun-crafting or the crafting-should-be-weak crowd are coming from. Anyone who is in that camp, I am about to blow your mind. Ready?

 

Crafters don't want to make the best gear to USE. THEY WANT TO MAKE IT FOR YOU!

 

Warcraft is NOT crafting, okay? True crafting is about a set of players providing gear for the community. True crafting IS NOT about making ourselves the best gear in game. Yes, it is possible that we *could* make gear for ourselves, if we could wear it. But what an interesting, deep, flexible, and complex crafting system is for... it's PURPOSE in a game, is to provide a fun (for them) way to PLAY a game by running a merchant service.

 

What I and others in this thread want is to make stuff for the community. Our goal isn't to walk up to you wearing a full set of BiS gear after 22 minutes of clicking. We want you to work WITH us to provide YOU with a full set of BiS gear that you have spent hours preparing to wear.

 

It's not a crafter-in-BiS versus a raider-in-BiS competition.

[Jebazel]

Crafters who neither raid nor PvP should not be excluded from having/making/selling products equal to the best in the game.

 

QFT!

 

And neither should females be second class citizens when it comes to flirts!

 

 

\/

[PjPablo]

There is more to the game than raids and PvP.

 

Just because those are the only things you left yourself to do doesn't mean everyone else didn't have the foresight to know a new game won't have much content at endgame.

 

The limitations of your gamestyle should not exclude the rest of us from good gear.

 

You still haven't answered why you need the gear. Gear is a tool. If you aren't going to do those activities that needs those tools, then you don't need the tools. It would be like me going out and buying thousands of dollars of mechanics tools and never working on a car. Your own play style is what is preventing you from getting that gear.

 

As far as there being more to the game than raids and PVP....doesn't seem like it in this game. This just might not be the game for you.

Edited January 29, 2012 by PjPablo

[Tic-]

oh this thread again.

 

 

i would like to ask why do you need the "BEST" gear in the game if you are not raiding or doing pvp?

 

 

raids need to have the gear treadmill to keep people running the place im pretty sure most will get bored pretty quick on the 4th run and not gaining anything from it because they can craft their "BEST" gear.

 

i wish they would make crafting more relevant and be able to make money better but being the "BEST" gear no if you want to craft so bad go play minecraft to get your fix swtor clearly encourages people to group up and do things.

 

I remember when they used to base dungeons on fun, as opposed to how much of a treadmill they can make it...

 

man were they crazy back then or what??

Edited January 29, 2012 by Tic-

[Ethern]

The real questions are:

- Why reserving the best gear for only one type of content?

- Why implementing crafting if it is that useless?

[PjPablo]

The real questions are:

- Why reserving the best gear for only one type of content?

- Why implementing crafting if it is that useless?

 

Reserving the best PVE gear for doing PVE? Makes sense.

Reserving the best PVP gear for doing PVP? Makes sense.

 

Maybe there should be crafting gear that allows people to craft better or craft higher level items, I don't know. I shouldn't be able to do PVE to get the best PVP gear. I shouldn't be able to do PVP to get the best PVE gear. AND, I shouldn't be able to do neither and get the best gear for them.

 

Crafting is awful in the game I agree. It needs improvement. I know I have been railing on this topic of crafting being able to make the best gear, but I do like crafting and crafters deserve a better system.

 

That said, there are few things people aren't taking into consideration if crafting was allowed to make gear on par with the best in the game. If the idea was that crafters could make gear that is BIS and be able to sell it than people with the most credits could be as geared as the most diehard raider or PVPer. There is not only a sense of that being unfair to the raiders and PVPers (and trust me there would be outrage all over these boards) but it also drives folks to get as many credits as possible, which leads to gold buying. There is a big reason that the best items are BOP after all. It's the idea that you cannnot buy your way to success in the game.

 

Also, this would cause the topic of 'welfare epics' to rise in this game. I would guarantee you that if this crafted gear were in game, people who used it would inevitably be targeted for scorn and not allowed into pugs by the folks that are the 'hardcore raiders/PVPers'. I have seen it in other MMOs. Those 'hardcore' players would simply inspect you and not invite you. The fact that someone created the gear or that they bought it would equal 'unskilled' in a lot of people's eyes and would create a ton of issues. It would be like the Gearscore fiasco from WOW.

[SnoggyMack]

Why cant games get this right? Player crafted gear should be the best possible in game armor.

 

Most MMORPGs do not travel down that path. This is one of the ones that doesn't.

[ElCapitaan]

I believe that everyone is missing the real point in this discussion. Specifically, crafting won't ever be on a even playing field as raiding due to money: your money! Simply put, BW is a business, and as a business, is operates under the continual pressure to maximize profits for its investors/stock holders.-rightfully so. Raiding, or the pursuit to have the best gear, takes more time, in the end, than does crafting. A longer time in game, per player, means a longer subscription time per account. A longer subscription time means more return on BW initial investment and long turn profit margins. Therefore, even though crafting can take time to make the "great gear," it will never surpass raiding due to the business model that BW and other MMOs operate under.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents. Please have a great week!

[Callern]

It's quite simple why it is this way.

 

Instead of giving you a meaningful reason to PvP or PvE, they dangle gear in front of people's noses to give them something to chase after. I've had people, over my years of MMOing, tell me that it's all about the group challenge, about overcoming the odds.

 

No it isn't.

 

It's about getting that next bit of loot so you can go and do the same thing next week in the chance that you might get another bit of loot slightly better than your current piece.

 

Now imagine if SW:TOR or any other themepark MMO didn't have those carrots to dangle in front of players - they'd have to create a meaningful reason to play that won't get dull - after all keeping people playing is the key. So why be innovative when the old-fashioned, 'ancient' way of doing things still works?

 

I too long for things to be skill based rather than equipment based - I'm still sick of the archetypal "You can only wear clothing, you can only wear armour, you can only use this sword whilst you can only use this gun. End of. No arguments", but that's probably because I come from an RP angle and want to be able to use all sorts of stuff for RP*.

 

*There are some cracking robes & bits for Medium armour users that my Sith Sorceress can't use - they look better than what I can give her. Dashed annoying.

[Ethern]

Reserving the best PVE gear for doing PVE? Makes sense.

Reserving the best PVP gear for doing PVP? Makes sense.

The same way PvP is a separate playstyle, withing PvE you can separate, solo content, group content. Crafting is another playstyle in addition. Then you have group content containing the best rewars for the crafting playstyle and the solo playtsyle.

 

That's the dumbest design ever made, and it has been copied again and again throughout many MMOs.

 

PvP gear should be the best for PvP content. (expertise stat)

Solo gear should be the best for solo content. (Give a lot of Presence stat by e.g.)

Raid gear should be the best for group content ( Remove stat useless for companions' bossting)

Crafting is apart and could be providing the best gear for all other playstyles, at the expense of being forced to adopt them to a certain extent.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Ethern

[Jarvus]

Crafting gear is meant to give you a foot step into Raiding, whats the point in end game Raid when you can just make better gear from crafting.

 

i will say one thing tho, there should be at least 1 item end game crafting that is bind on pick up and will be better than raid gear.

 

lets transfer this logic, from page one of this thread, to potions and see how long it lasts. lets also consider the fact that most of the "end game" items crafters can make require components that are themselves Bind on Pickup and only drop from PvE raids/instances.

 

Tell me again please why 400 Synthweaving should leave me shouting for Hard Mode pugs to finish my gear just because someone in development contemplated that I'd be willing to blow 200 Merc points and 200 WZ points on a champion bag or two a day, but no one thought I'd be willing to blow 100 points of each for a vial of biomemetic gel?

Edited January 29, 2012 by Jarvus

[Karraway]

What's the point of endgame raiding then? I k now you special snowflake will say "for fun" but you are the minority. PPL sub to MMO and grind dungeons for gear and this undisputable as the sun rising tomorrow.

 

I think you will find that high end raiders are actually the minority.i didn't realize that the r in mmorpg stood for raid (sorry raiding should only be one aspect of end game not the only aspect)

[GarbonzotheDude]

Considering how simplistic and easy crafting is in this game why should it be the best? Why even the least bit compareable to the best?

 

Normally I support crafting having a larger role but not with how it is done in this game.

[crowncrow]

It's quite simple why it is this way.

 

Instead of giving you a meaningful reason to PvP or PvE, they dangle gear in front of people's noses to give them something to chase after. I've had people, over my years of MMOing, tell me that it's all about the group challenge, about overcoming the odds.

 

No it isn't.

 

It's about getting that next bit of loot so you can go and do the same thing next week in the chance that you might get another bit of loot slightly better than your current piece.

.

 

How true and how sad...

 

Eventually though, MMO's will have to evolve and that is why we are here trying to push that change. There are plenty of niche games doing things differently already and doing things that have never been tried.

The reason big developers never try "the unknown" it is not because a different approach would not work and players would be bored. Many niche games have their loyal following and make enough money to continue, ( once again EVE is a good example here: almost 10 years in the making and growing very slowly but steadily).

 

Of course some small developers don't make it but this is the way off the world. Only the small companies truly innovate, they do it because they cannot compete straight up, they do it because they have to. Every now and then one of them succeeds and makes big money by introducing something new that works - then all others follow. BW despite all their talk of innovation are simply copycatting WoW, they are simply trying to squeeze every last juice of the theme park mania.

 

I think this hits the nail on the head:

 

Crafters don't want to make the best gear to USE. THEY WANT TO MAKE IT FOR YOU!

It's not a crafter-in-BiS versus a raider-in-BiS competition.

 

You "blew my mind" when you said it because it points to another obvious truth:

 

Ironically speaking it is the players who must evolve if we want better MMO's, not the developers. Big companies like BW are simply following the money trail. As long as most players embrace these mind-numbing formulas as the only path to "game heaven" things will not change.

 

I was hoping that some of you skeptics will be convinced by good arguments that have been posted here. After all, it has been repeatedly stated, (here and on many other forums and sites): a good crafting system supported by a proper in game economy is excellent in promoting more complex player interactions, a sense of community beyond hack&slash and ultimately contributes to the growth of the game.

 

I guess BW assumes that by simply pumping out new (...and lets not forget to mention EPIC) raid content they will be able to assure the loyalty of their subscribers, and keep the money-wheel spinning. Everything else, as someone pointed out, space combat, crafting, in game economy must take a back seat.

 

If I was one of their shareholder, I wouldn't be so sure of that formula. I would have preferred a good crafting system then spending all that money on their "innovative" voiceover. Anyway, there is one consolation: this thread is climbing steadily up

Edited January 29, 2012 by crowncrow