Sorc/Sage Imbalance caused by Resouce system

[Spyde]

Imperial Agents/Smuggler Energy Regen

Sith Warrior/ Knight - Rage Generation

Bounty Hunter - Heat System

Trooper - Ammo

Sorc/Sage Force Pool

 

 

 

Where do the class issues come up at times

 

 

 

Shadow/ Assassin is basically Energy in a sense

 

 

Sorc/Sage... BOOM 500+ Force Pool from hell that they never run out of.

 

 

Why did Sorc/Sage not stay in line with the rest ?

 

Why didnt sorc/sage get a boost of 50-100 force.

 

Lowerd all force costs.. have regen speed like Shadow/Assassin then have abilities to get this back

 

 

 

This would solve many issues with the class..

 

In pvp.. they can SPAM SPAM SPAM with no worries of resourse management.

 

In PvE its near the same.

 

 

the other classes.. have to watch that certain level.. Once an IA gets his energy lower then a certain point, he can get behind and be screwed on having the energy to deal with a burst situation.

 

a Sorc ? No issues.. they have UNLIMITED POWA.

 

 

 

Is it just me, or would it be better if Sorc/Sage had a limited Resourse Pool Like the other 7 Classes in the game.

 

 

*Puts Flame anti Sorc/Sage Rage Suit on*

Edited January 26, 2012 by Spyde

[Tenacity]

The Sorceror/Sage force pool is big, yes, but it has a constant regeneration rate, and look at some of the sorceror/sage abilities - they take 50-100 force points to cast.

 

Sorcerors/Sages also have no force recovery ability, whereas all of the other classes have an ability on a 2 minute cooldown that restores a large portion of their resource pool.

 

The energy and heat based classes can literally use a healing or attack rotation that can be sustained indefinitely, while sorcerors/sages will run out of force eventually no matter what rotation they use (unless they dont attack at all).

 

Lastly, sorcerors and sages have no (good) form of attack that doesnt cost resource points. They dont have any bonuses to lightsaber/melee damage, while all of the other classes can either use basic ranged or melee attacks free of cost.

 

 

You guys need to look a little further into the situation before crying nerf.

[Loxone]

I thought sorc/sage had a skill to sac health for more energy? Isn't that a regen ability?

[Invitcted]

Sorcerors/Sages also have no force recovery ability, whereas all of the other classes have an ability on a 2 minute cooldown that restores a large portion of their resource pool.

 

Assassins don't.

[LyriaFrost]

Sort of. 15% of their health for 8% force energy.

 

Considering you don't regen in combat, it's a very limited resource to draw from. If you have (say) 8,000hp, you'd be sacrificing 1200 of that to get back 40-48 energy. That's barely enough for a single heal. Which would put you back to exactly where you were, if you used it on yourself.

 

So they have SOMETHING like the other abilities, they don't have the sustainability that the other classes have. If I cycle my skills properly, for instance, my agent can heal/attack forever. My sorceress will run out of steam after a short while, since her abilities cost large chunks of her pool each cast, and her pool doesn't regenerate very fast.

Edited January 26, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Allyhoo]

The Sorceror/Sage force pool is big, yes, but it has a constant regeneration rate, and look at some of the sorceror/sage abilities - they take 50-100 force points to cast.

 

Sorcerors/Sages also have no force recovery ability, whereas all of the other classes have an ability on a 2 minute cooldown that restores a large portion of their resource pool.

 

The energy and heat based classes can literally use a healing or attack rotation that can be sustained indefinitely, while sorcerors/sages will run out of force eventually no matter what rotation they use (unless they dont attack at all).

 

Lastly, sorcerors and sages have no (good) form of attack that doesnt cost resource points. They dont have any bonuses to lightsaber/melee damage, while all of the other classes can either use basic ranged or melee attacks free of cost.

 

 

You guys need to look a little further into the situation before crying nerf.

 

Couldn't have said it better...please don't ask for a class nerf before you understand what you are talking about. Sorcs/Sages have to manage their resources like everyone else.

[Allyhoo]

Sort of. 15% of their health for 8% force energy.

 

Considering you don't regen in combat, it's a very limited resource to draw from. If you have (say) 8,000hp, you'd be sacrificing 1200 of that to get back 40-48 energy. That's barely enough for a single heal. Which would put you back to exactly where you were, if you used it on yourself.

 

So they have SOMETHING like the other abilities, they don't have the sustainability that the other classes have. If I cycle my skills properly, for instance, my agent can heal/attack forever. My sorceress will run out of steam after a short while, since her abilities cost large chunks of her pool each cast, and her pool doesn't regenerate very fast.

 

Exactly, the consumption abilitity is definitely only good in emergency situations and shouldn't be used if all you want to do is cast a self-heal. This ability is really only good for healing another player/companion when you have exhausted all other resources. Personally, I rarely find reason to use it at all. It is definitely not equivalent to the Bounty Hunter's heat dump abilities etc.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Allyhoo

[genesiser]

I think what the OP is trying to say is the resource of the sage allows that class to go all out right off the bat and be able to cast many spells before going oom. Where as the trooper can realistically do about 4 moves before they have to slow down and the same with smugglers. The melee jedi have to build up power and when they have a full rage bar they can really only do 3 or 4 moves without being out of rage again.

 

So every other class can do about 3-5 moves before running dry or start running into energy problems where as the sage/sorc can do about 15 spells before getting low.

[poasiodss]

I am a little curious about why the developers decided to give sorcerers an energy pool better fit for bursting rather than sustained damage while just about all the other classes' resource systems work the other way.

[raelimar]

UNLIMITED POWAH! It's not just a catchphrase anymore. Edited January 27, 2012 by raelimar

[Daniel_RGB]

Sort of. 15% of their health for 8% force energy.

 

 

And when you use this spell - you loose regen speed for a while - great effect :-)

[Ranevan]

Sages do have first or second tier talents in both dps trees that either give them heal side effects or boost force regen.

[Kennkra]

I dont think OP is calling for a nerf, I think its more like "Why all clases have a punish mechanic and sorc/sages don't?"

 

My main is a BH but i've been playin with a sorc lately (the two of them 50) and they dont run out of force, not at least in a sense of that being a threat, it would be nice to get a balance on sorcs/sages resource sistem not to nerf them but to balance clases around the punish sistem.

 

 

Someway i feel a little sorry for sorcs/sages because a 9y old kid could do the same dps as a 23y old pro mmo player with 8 years of experience at mmos. You just have to train the kid to watch for procs, but if you introduce a BH/IA or a SW/JK to the kid he probably flip out.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kennkra

[Sylriana]

I am a little curious about why the developers decided to give sorcerers an energy pool better fit for bursting rather than sustained damage while just about all the other classes' resource systems work the other way.

 

My guess ( I'm not arguing whether the logic is sound or not ) is that they're given a more flexible resource in exchange for not having a ranged auto attack.

[Tenacity]

I am a little curious about why the developers decided to give sorcerers an energy pool better fit for bursting rather than sustained damage while just about all the other classes' resource systems work the other way.

 

Variety, maybe? Though it's certainly lacking everywhere else in this game.

[Velr]

The Sorc healing/might mechanic is just WAY better in a PvP enviorement.

 

The bigger sustain of the Energy/Heat system does not even come in to play in most PvP scenarios.

 

When it comes to "just keep someone alive" the Sorc shines... Unless the fight goes on for a long time and there are no hard damagespikes that need you to spam... Which like never happens in PvP.

[_Darkstar]

I think what the OP is trying to say is the resource of the sage allows that class to go all out right off the bat and be able to cast many spells before going oom. Where as the trooper can realistically do about 4 moves before they have to slow down and the same with smugglers. The melee jedi have to build up power and when they have a full rage bar they can really only do 3 or 4 moves without being out of rage again.

 

So every other class can do about 3-5 moves before running dry or start running into energy problems where as the sage/sorc can do about 15 spells before getting low.

Yet any other healer can heal FOREVER on long fights in hardmode ops etc, where a Sorc has to really manage their force pool or they will become useless.

 

Swings and roundabouts, each type of resource has a specific scenario where it shines, and some where it doesn't.

[formulaic]

Yet any other healer can heal FOREVER on long fights in hardmode ops etc, where a Sorc has to really manage their force pool or they will become useless.

 

Swings and roundabouts, each type of resource has a specific scenario where it shines, and some where it doesn't.

 

I don't think I'd class 'high level PvE' and the 'whole of PvP' as "specific scenarios".

 

Personally I think all of the class mechanics need toning down, by quite a lot.

- the commando is too boring, the op is/was too bursty, the sorc too mechanic-less and the sentinel is far too twitchy.

[_ArcheR_]

DPS sorcs have unlimited pull, restoring 1% energy for each tick of force lightning/telekinetic throw too good.

[tufy]

The premise is flawed in that one assumes that all classes are capable of equal damage in equal situation, which is not true. Each class is balanced around its own resource mechanic, be it energy, mana, rage or whatever else.

 

Sage/Sorcerer's Force works similar to mana systems in other games, whereas, say, Shadow/Assassin's Force works akin to energy systems in those other games. I apologize in advance for using WoW comparisons, but it simply makes the best example as it is both similar in mechanics and familiar to many players here.

 

So let's compare a WoW mage with WoW rogue to understand what's going on. As we know, a mage has, say, 100.000 mana vs. rogue's tiny 100 energy. But at the same time, mage's Fireball (or another base spell) costs 1500 mana or FIFTEEEN TIMES the size of rogue's energy pool. In other words, if Rogue had Fireballs, he couldn't cast them at all, because his resource pool would never be big enough. Still, with mage's mana pool, that's 66 fireballs before he'd run out of mana. Meanwhile, rogue's Backstab costs 60 energy, or 60% of his resources. If a mage had Backstab, it would cost 60.000 mana and the mage could only use 1 before running out of necessary resources.

 

Now here's the catch: a mage can chain his Fireballs meaning that they will be balanced around being spammed. Meanwhile, the rogue's Backstab will hit hard as hell, but since the rogue can't spam it due to his resource mechanics, that's still balanced. A mage with Backstab costing 60 mana, on the other hand, would be imbalanced beyond belief.

 

As you can see from the above example, each ability's cost, each ability's mechanic is balanced around being used in a certain way, around the limits of one's resource mechanic. As someone who plays a Scoundrel and a Sage healer, I can honestly say that apart from certain Force Armor advantages (preemptive healing and buffer health, something that's an innate advantage of shields in general), the two healers are remarkably balanced in experienced hands in spite of drastically different resource systems.

 

But what about two advanced classes of the same class? For this, I'll use another example from WoW - elemental and enhancement shaman. Both specializations use virtually the same base skills - flame shock, lightning bolt, lava burst, etc. Still, the specs play completely differently. How is that possible? Well, for one, enhancement shaman's casting is extremely inefficient. As such, he's better off using his melee skills to "empower" his spells. Meanwhile, elemental's melee is pretty much nonexistant, but in turn, they excel at casting their spells.

 

It's similar with assassins/shadows vs. sages/sorcerers or any other advanced classes in TOR - whereas the Sorcerer/Sage will focus on managing his resources so that he doesn't run out of them before the fight is over, the Assassin/Shadow will instead focus on using hardest hitting ability of the moment, relying on fast regeneration to keep up.

 

At the end of the day, the classes' resource systems are balanced for their specific gameplay, the cooldowns on their abilities and their skill combos. Any issues with balance comes from range and combat control, which is most obvious on Ilum, where we ranged classes can just spam our AoE, whereas the melee classes have to actually get into the crowd and beat someone with a glowing stick or shotgun or whatever, exposing themselves to massive bursts. The class hardest hit in this situation are Jedi Knights / Sith Warriors, imo, since they have no way of getting the enemy on their side and lack any ranged skill at all - this is somewhat akin to early days of WoW pvp, where mages and warlocks would spam their AoE on Alterac Valley front, while Paladins would run around and die.

[Macheath]

Yet any other healer can heal FOREVER on long fights in hardmode ops etc, where a Sorc has to really manage their force pool or they will become useless.

 

Swings and roundabouts, each type of resource has a specific scenario where it shines, and some where it doesn't.

 

Every class has to "really watch" their resource pool or they will not be able to heal indefinitely. The Scoundrel and Commando have to watch their own pools more than the Sage, as if they go below 60% of their total resources, they take a hit to their efficiency. The Sage doesn't have to really start watching their own regen until they go down to 30% or so, because that is when they run the risk of not having enough resources left to "emergency" heal if the situation calls for it.

 

Make no mistake, the Sage has an "unlimited resource pool" just like the other two healers, in that they, too, can keep a group alive indefinitely. It's just not as apparent because the other two healers appear to be taking actions while their resource pools regen, while the Sage stands there and does nothing while waiting for their own regen. So while you can technically argue that the Sage is forced to stop and do nothing while the other classes can continue to heal, we all know (especially in the case of the Scoundrel) that these free heals are just filler, and/or mechanically designed to assist with regeneration more than actual healing output. They could give the Sage a "free" heal that healed for 1% of the target's health, too, but it would just be a meaningless, token gesture.

 

-Macheath.

[Giondi]

Sorcerers (and Sages) who are specced into healing get a couple of talents that give them the indefinite healing that other classes get. First are the Resurgence and Force Bending talents. Resurgence is a low cost instant HOT that, when you put two points into Force Bending, has a 100% chance of giving you a special ability on the next heal you cast. Next is Innervate, which is a 3 second channeled heal, which ticks 4 times (well, 3 ticks and an initial heal). Force Bending increases the critical chance of Innervate by 25%. Force Surge is the last talent for this, and when you put two points into it, it gives your Innervate crits a 100% chance to make your next Consumption activate without costing health or degenerating your Force regeneration.

 

When you get low on Force while healing, simply use Resurgence, proccing Force Bending, then use Innervate. With the extra 25% crit chance from Force Bending, if geared properly, you are almost guaranteed (with FB and the Agent buff, I have about 65% crit chance per tick, and I'm not even stacking crit) to crit at least once with it, giving you 8% Force. Both Resurgence and Force Bending have a low enough cost that you should regenerate all the Force they cost during the Innervate channel (yes, Force does regenerate during combat, during casting, and during channeling, watch your Force bar when you play, I don't know how all these rumors got out that Force stops regenerating).

[Spyde]

Once sorc has some gear.. specced correctly..

 

They never run out of force healing or doing damage.

 

Innervate...Procs force Surge Easily

 

 

Free mana (consumption)

 

Every time it tics..

 

It has no.. this effect can only happen this often.

 

 

If you get 60% crit, you can have it proc every 3 sec 3 times in a row and spam Consumption over and over with no ill effects.

[CommanderFrog]

Sorc/sage force pool is the same, Trooper/BH ammo/heat conversion is very different, this coming from someone with a 22 BH and a 30 trooper, same spec. Things I can only cast a couple times on my trooper I can cast 10s of times on my BH.

[Daezihang]

It is unfair having these mechanics in PvP especially, as your average lifespan isn't too high; or the average fight doesn't last more than 30 seconds to a minute (a minute would be an extremely long fight).

 

As a Sorcerer/sage you needn't worry about running out of force because in nearly all situation you have enough in one bar to do enough damage to kill someone one-on-one, and plenty when a group battle is on.

 

Simply put: having some classes use burst and some flat but consistent will never - ever - balance in PvP. It's about about a developer realised this.