Grouping

[surftech]

There seems to be an inherent problem with grouping in TOR. Let me give a few examples

 

1. My RL buddy and I start a char together and decide we will group this char as long as possible. Problem is he has more time to play than I and ends up out leveling my by a long shot.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

2. I am in a moderate sized guild. I solo a lot but need help at times on missions. Problem is that many mission are not "shareable" meaning that if I have a green door, most likely anyone trying to help me has a red door.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

3. My girlfriend finally realizes that if she wants to spend time with me, she needs to start playing TOR. She goes out and buys it, creates a char but is constantly saying "help me learn the game and do these missions." Problem is, my char is lvl ~30 and I cant join her group because it kills her XP. She is left alone and finally quits because she isn't getting the help she needs and doesnt have fun.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

4. Because TOR can be solo'd (for the most part with Companion) PUGs (pick up groups are the norm) Everyone spams "LFG xheroicx" and if no one responds just carries on solo'ing. A result of the solo ability is that PUGs are more selective and difficult to maintain past 1 mission.

Grouping Scenario: Pass, with exceptions because the group rarely carries on past 1 quest.

 

After my many years of MMO playing, to me the best way to go about fixing these grouping issues is to introduce a sort of "sidekick" or "Lackey" system. (From City of Heroes)

 

Basically, you could group with ANYONE at ANY level on ANY mission. If you were higher and needed help, you could "sidekick" to bring him up to within 3 levels of you. His XP was scaled to meet his original level, and so is yours.

 

If he is higher than you and you want help on a mission, you would "Lackey" him. He drops down to within 3 level below you, gets very little XP and also loses certain abilities in the process. BUT, the group still works and he can help you with your mission.

 

ALSO make ALL missions shareable, including all steps of progressions. Most of the time, ppl that look for groups on these long series of missions just need help on certain bosses or door'd areas.

 

Ok I said my peace. Honestly if grouping isnt fixed soon, IMO the long term future of this game will be in question.

[Quraswren]

There seems to be an inherent problem with grouping in TOR. Let me give a few examples

 

1. My RL buddy and I start a char together and decide we will group this char as long as possible. Problem is he has more time to play than I and ends up out leveling my by a long shot.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

Friend fail: How about he be a real friend that said he would level with you and when you are not playing he create a different alt toon to play that does not affect your group time.

 

 

2. I am in a moderate sized guild. I solo a lot but need help at times on missions. Problem is that many mission are not "shareable" meaning that if I have a green door, most likely anyone trying to help me has a red door.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

You fail: go to preference and turn on the ability to share access to zoned areas. Also, since you solo a lot it seems you only want help on your terms and others should drop what they are doing just cause you hit a speed bump.

 

3. My girlfriend finally realizes that if she wants to spend time with me, she needs to start playing TOR. She goes out and buys it, creates a char but is constantly saying "help me learn the game and do these missions." Problem is, my char is lvl ~30 and I cant join her group because it kills her XP. She is left alone and finally quits because she isn't getting the help she needs and doesnt have fun.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

Boyfriend, real life and understanding the game fail: You get more expereince for grouping in this game most of the time. Anyone who can actually get their girlfriend to play video games are already a head of most people cause you can't seem to help her out is your own fault. She's seems to not be getting what she needs on many levels. Your not doing it right thats for sure.

 

4. Because TOR can be solo'd (for the most part with Companion) PUGs (pick up groups are the norm) Everyone spams "LFG xheroicx" and if no one responds just carries on solo'ing. A result of the solo ability is that PUGs are more selective and difficult to maintain past 1 mission.

Grouping Scenario: Pass, with exceptions because the group rarely carries on past 1 quest.

 

Cognitive failure: Is there even really a problem here or just your active imagination making something up again.

 

After my many years of MMO playing, to me the best way to go about fixing these grouping issues is to introduce a sort of "sidekick" or "Lackey" system. (From City of Heroes)

 

Please God no. If you want to solo you can. If you want to group you can. If you have friends and girlfriends that want to group, it's your job to make it happen and not Biowares to design that system. Put in a little effort why don't you.

 

Basically, you could group with ANYONE at ANY level on ANY mission. If you were higher and needed help, you could "sidekick" to bring him up to within 3 levels of you. His XP was scaled to meet his original level, and so is yours.

 

If he is higher than you and you want help on a mission, you would "Lackey" him. He drops down to within 3 level below you, gets very little XP and also loses certain abilities in the process. BUT, the group still works and he can help you with your mission.

 

You already get more expereince in this game for grouping at appropriate levels. There is no reason someone should get experience (more especially) cause they had a level 50 help them. Kind of defeats the entire leveling process by doing it that way. The perk of getting a level 50 to help your level 10 is getting the quest done faster and getting to the quest reward, Not more experience.

 

ALSO make ALL missions shareable, including all steps of progressions. Most of the time, ppl that look for groups on these long series of missions just need help on certain bosses or door'd areas.

 

Ok I said my peace. Honestly if grouping isnt fixed soon, IMO the long term future of this game will be in question.

 

The grouping is good. You seem to have a problem understanding what is a personal flaw and a game flaw.

 

Your friends wont wait on you to level, you wont help your girlfriend by staying near her level or simingily showing her how to play better. You like more solo play but should you need a group someone better be at your beck and call and when you do group you want to have someone higher level than you and still get the most experience as if they weren't already trashing the content for you.

 

The only grouping problem is you and your odd mentality of it. Probably best if you just I stayed solo to be honest. I don't think you can easily handle the grouping dynamic.

[kimmiekros]

Sadly, it's by design. I haven't grouped with guildies while leveling either since everyone advanced at different speeds. It pretty much turned into a 1-50 solo game.

 

I believe GuildWars2 is taking an elegant solution to your exact issue. Heavy use of sidekick system as mentioned by OP, with open auto grouping. To top it all off everyone in the area of the event gets full credit no matter the level, so no worries about kill stealing or spawn camping.

 

I'm not saying to Bioware to steal it, but there are features about it that can greatly improve the leveling experience.

[Kirska]

There seems to be an inherent problem with grouping in TOR. Let me give a few examples

 

1. My RL buddy and I start a char together and decide we will group this char as long as possible. Problem is he has more time to play than I and ends up out leveling my by a long shot.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

 

 

3. My girlfriend finally realizes that if she wants to spend time with me, she needs to start playing TOR. She goes out and buys it, creates a char but is constantly saying "help me learn the game and do these missions." Problem is, my char is lvl ~30 and I cant join her group because it kills her XP. She is left alone and finally quits because she isn't getting the help she needs and doesnt have fun.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

These are problems with you and your friends, not with the game design.

 

I play with my husband every time I am online. If we are playing without each other, we are on different characters. If you don't have the self control to do that, that's your fault.

 

And why didn't you roll a new character with your girlfriend?

 

I think you are the one that failed, not the game.

[surftech]

Dude I group just fine but having ppl ask me for help and hitting a red door is just stupid.

 

I can retort your comments but the way you stated everything your "attacking" me as a person and my play style.

 

When really all anyone REALLY groups for are FP's, Heroics and world bosses, there is a issue.

 

Grouping isnt just for xp bonuses, social bonuses etc, it is the backbone of a successful MMO.

[surftech]

These are problems with you and your friends, not with the game design.

 

I play with my husband every time I am online. If we are playing without each other, we are on different characters. If you don't have the self control to do that, that's your fault.

 

And why didn't you roll a new character with your girlfriend?

 

I think you are the one that failed, not the game.

 

Dont get me wrong, my gf and I do that. But it limits the game. Why limit the game. Why cant I bring my higher lvl character to her, we group up and it doesnt break the game? It doesnt seem logical to me.

 

This "oh you must be the exact lvl (for the most part) and be on the same quest steps/progressions to group" is just idiotic in 2012.

 

BW and EA can do better than this

[daddymoofle]

These are problems with you and your friends, not with the game design.

 

I play with my husband every time I am online. If we are playing without each other, we are on different characters. If you don't have the self control to do that, that's your fault.

 

And why didn't you roll a new character with your girlfriend?

 

I think you are the one that failed, not the game.

 

This. I made a toon just for my wife, and I romance her not my companion by helping her do what she needs to do - and encouraging her "new-to-gaming" excitement whenever I can. This isn't about the game, it's about you and your failure to correctly navigate the situation.

 

Your other points are biased, dude above with a counter for every point you made has it about right.

[daddymoofle]

This "oh you must be the exact lvl (for the most part) and be on the same quest steps/progressions to group" is just idiotic in 2012.

 

Your first MMO, I take it? The big "game that shall not be named" has this too - so do many others. It's called "quest progression", and it's part of the way these things work, Sir.

[GawdoOo]

Dude I group just fine but having ppl ask me for help and hitting a red door is just stupid.

 

I can retort your comments but the way you stated everything your "attacking" me as a person and my play style.

 

When really all anyone REALLY groups for are FP's, Heroics and world bosses, there is a issue.

 

Grouping isnt just for xp bonuses, social bonuses etc, it is the backbone of a successful MMO.

 

This is still on you and your party.

 

If the person with the quest goes through the door first. It turns to a blue door for everyone else in the group if they don't have the quest. When they enter they are able to help with everything, but are put into spectator mode during cut scenes.

[surftech]

Nope

 

I guess I could list all of my MMO experience, but Cryptic had this figured out in City of Heroes.

 

Allowing a sidekick or lackey kept the community infused.

 

Now its like "ignore all the group spam requests unless I have some solely XP bonus or advantage" is archaic at best.

 

Grouping in MMO's is more than just game bonuses.

 

And I never play WoW if that is what your referring to.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

Dude I group just fine but having ppl ask me for help and hitting a red door is just stupid.

 

I can retort your comments but the way you stated everything your "attacking" me as a person and my play style.

 

When really all anyone REALLY groups for are FP's, Heroics and world bosses, there is a issue.

 

Grouping isnt just for xp bonuses, social bonuses etc, it is the backbone of a successful MMO.

 

I'm not sure what's happening for you.

 

Whenever I group with people, it lets me in their doors.

[Ratall]

Your first MMO, I take it? The big "game that shall not be named" has this too - so do many others. It's called "quest progression", and it's part of the way these things work, Sir.

 

 

Guild Wars 2 is basically fixing the issues mentioned in the OP. Say if you're level 80 and go to a level 40 zone your level is scaled down. There is no one shotting lower level mobs or running people through dungeons. You still have the advantage of all the extra abilities but you stats are scaled down.

 

Same goes if a lvl 40 goes to a lvl 80 zone. He does not gain new abilities but his stats are scaled up.

 

Anyone can participate in any quest/event and get xp/loot/etc as well.

 

 

TOR was not designed this way and is not going to change. It's a 1-50 solo game with group content at 50. That's just the way it is.

[HanzoV]

3. My girlfriend finally realizes that if she wants to spend time with me, she needs to start playing TOR. She goes out and buys it, creates a char but is constantly saying "help me learn the game and do these missions." Problem is, my char is lvl ~30 and I cant join her group because it kills her XP. She is left alone and finally quits because she isn't getting the help she needs and doesnt have fun.

Grouping Scenario: FAIL

 

Wow, that's just...wow.

 

My girlfriend is totally uninterested in this game. I would be ecstatic if I could get her to join up and would gladly play with her and help her level up.

 

So yeah, FAIL, but not the one you were thinking of.

[Fraxture]

Friend fail: How about he be a real friend that said he would level with you and when you are not playing he create a different alt toon to play that does not affect your group time.

 

 

 

 

You fail: go to preference and turn on the ability to share access to zoned areas. Also, since you solo a lot it seems you only want help on your terms and others should drop what they are doing just cause you hit a speed bump.

 

 

 

Boyfriend, real life and understanding the game fail: You get more expereince for grouping in this game most of the time. Anyone who can actually get their girlfriend to play video games are already a head of most people cause you can't seem to help her out is your own fault. She's seems to not be getting what she needs on many levels. Your not doing it right thats for sure.

 

 

 

Cognitive failure: Is there even really a problem here or just your active imagination making something up again.

 

 

 

Please God no. If you want to solo you can. If you want to group you can. If you have friends and girlfriends that want to group, it's your job to make it happen and not Biowares to design that system. Put in a little effort why don't you.

 

 

 

You already get more expereince in this game for grouping at appropriate levels. There is no reason someone should get experience (more especially) cause they had a level 50 help them. Kind of defeats the entire leveling process by doing it that way. The perk of getting a level 50 to help your level 10 is getting the quest done faster and getting to the quest reward, Not more experience.

 

 

 

The grouping is good. You seem to have a problem understanding what is a personal flaw and a game flaw.

 

Your friends wont wait on you to level, you wont help your girlfriend by staying near her level or simingily showing her how to play better. You like more solo play but should you need a group someone better be at your beck and call and when you do group you want to have someone higher level than you and still get the most experience as if they weren't already trashing the content for you.

 

The only grouping problem is you and your odd mentality of it. Probably best if you just I stayed solo to be honest. I don't think you can easily handle the grouping dynamic.

 

This, I have a toon that runs with the big dawgs. And I have a toon to run with my wife since she is a slow at leveling.

 

I now have a toon for every occasion in every level range to fit the needs of guildies, friends and family.

 

It's just common courtesy.

Never leave a man behind..or woman.

[NinteyNines]

If the only time your girlfriend gets to spend with you is playing TOR, don't worry, she'll be gone soon.

 

It sounds like you really need to reevaluate your RL priorities instead of worrying about grouping in a video game that is entirley soloable for 90% of it's content.

[VanorDM]

Anyone can participate in any quest/event and get xp/loot/etc as well.

 

This system was in CoH and it never worked real well to be honest.

 

Lvl 50's SK'ed down were still much more powerful then the lvl 15-20 character they were with. The lvl 15-20 character SK'ed up to 50 was at best a drain on the party resources because they lacked the abilities everyone else had.

 

Sure you could do it, but it never worked anywhere nearly as well as some people seem to think it did.

 

As far as the OP is concerned, pretty much every issue he listed, was an issue with what he and other people were doing, and not an issue with how the game was designed.

[Saurakk]

Not to be an *** but this seems like you have the problem, not the game.

 

Every MMO has the same issues and there is no need for a mentor program.

 

Just keep alternate toons to play with your GF and your buddy.

 

Watch out though, your GF will prob move on to a new "game" soon unless you spend more time with her keyboard and mouse and actually quest in Real Life.

[HanzoV]

Watch out though, your GF will prob move on to a new "game" soon unless you spend more time with her keyboard and mouse and actually quest in Real Life.

 

Yeah, she'll be "leveling up" in no time, I'm sure.

[GarbonzotheDude]

The grouping is good. You seem to have a problem understanding what is a personal flaw and a game flaw.

 

Your friends wont wait on you to level, you wont help your girlfriend by staying near her level or simingily showing her how to play better. You like more solo play but should you need a group someone better be at your beck and call and when you do group you want to have someone higher level than you and still get the most experience as if they weren't already trashing the content for you.

 

The only grouping problem is you and your odd mentality of it. Probably best if you just I stayed solo to be honest. I don't think you can easily handle the grouping dynamic.

 

Actually it isn't good pending on your faction and server. Although some of his issues are questionable.

 

Not sure how making all missions shareable is somehow a bad thing though. Seems silly to me that they aren't. Ran into this a few times and quite frankly doesn't make a lot of sense that someone can be unable to join you or complete a group mission.

 

He has a good point far as that goes.

[KittyPrawn]

This system was in CoH and it never worked real well to be honest.

 

Lvl 50's SK'ed down were still much more powerful then the lvl 15-20 character they were with. The lvl 15-20 character SK'ed up to 50 was at best a drain on the party resources because they lacked the abilities everyone else had.

 

Sure you could do it, but it never worked anywhere nearly as well as some people seem to think it did.

 

As far as the OP is concerned, pretty much every issue he listed, was an issue with what he and other people were doing, and not an issue with how the game was designed.

 

You can look at Warzones in this game to prove this right. In the 13-49 bracket, everyone is scaled up to 49. There is still a dramatic difference between what a level 13 can do and a level 49 can do. The higher levels are still at an advantage.

 

Not scaling up or down does not make this a single player game, as most MMOs follow this style and it is widely accepted. If your friends aren't willing to wait for you just because they have extra time, that is an issue with either communication or your friend.

 

And quite honestly, everyone else has it right about you and your girl. I play with my man, and we leveled the whole way together, and played alts separately. He was ahead of me on an alt, and he's even stopped playing that for a bit until I catch up. You want to have groups, but you're not willing to help her out or wait patiently for her to be able to consistently group with you.

[VanorDM]

He has a good point far as that goes.

 

No not really, because there's no quest in this game that I've seen, that can't be done with a group.

 

Class quests by default bar other people of the same class from joining, but this can be turned off.

 

Some quests can't be shared, because either the quest is a few steps up in a chain. Or because it's a daily which means you just need to go to the quest giver and get it.

 

Other then that however, there is no quest or area in this game you can't bring a group to. Even if the person doesn't have the quest, they can still enter the area with you.

[GarbonzotheDude]

Some quests can't be shared, because either the quest is a few steps up in a chain. Or because it's a daily which means you just need to go to the quest giver and get it.

 

Other then that however, there is no quest or area in this game you can't bring a group to. Even if the person doesn't have the quest, they can still enter the area with you.

 

...and? How would making those shareable be a bad thing? How does that effect anything even remotely in a negative way?

[surftech]

...and? How would making those shareable be a bad thing? How does that effect anything even remotely in a negative way?

 

This is what Im trying to say.

 

All quests should be shareable. Scale sidekicks or lackeys. Whats the big deal with that?

 

My god wading through fanboi's on this forum is difficult.

 

I do have alts that I play, and one is dedicated to my gf. It just sucks that I have to run all of the same sideqeusts whenever I play with her and that I cannot touch that toon just because I want to group with her.

 

It such an obvious thing, I dont know why BW is handling it this way.

 

They make the game almost single player anyway with companions, why cant they change the grouping slightly

[Saurakk]

My god wading through fanboi's on this forum is difficult.

 

 

My God, can't anyone take criticism and disagreement anymore without automatically taking the "fanboi" defense?

 

Maybe people simply legitimately disagree.

[Thradar]

None of these are grouping fails.

 

-Friend fail

-Not understanding mechanics fail (you can't share the 10th mission in a chain with someone who hasn't done the previous 9 missions in the chain. What a wonderful game this would be if you could just roll in for that 15th mission and get the rewards)

-You fail (roll and alt and play with your GF, sheesh)

-Only Heroics "require" grouping. So if a group breaks up after a Heroic, just get another group for the next.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Thradar