Carnage for PvP is the most underrated spec

[Kibaken]

I knew they were looking into it, where did they confirm it?

 

That 30% goes a looooong way.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Vastalee
removed quote

[Axcys]

I knew they were looking into it, where did they confirm it?

 

That 30% goes a looooong way.

 

I'll dig it up. Gimme a bit I'm still at work.

[Axcys]

didn't take as long as i thought to find.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1931343#edit1931343

[Axcys]

So I disagree, rarely does anyone I fight dispell dots, and I'm on a tough pvp server (Helm of Garaush). They can keep dispelling imo, wasting gcd's to prevent little bits of dmg instead of taking you out of the fight. What does it matter if someone cast dispell or heal? same result.

 

I'm sorry but if people don't dispel your server is not a tough pvp server. Getting rid of even 3 ticks of deadly saber is at least 3900 damage, 6-9% of your health, and whatever rage it would have generated. Anyone who doesnt dispell everything is an idiot.

[ThisGuyThat]

Copy and pasting my previous post

I've said this too many times already. Carnage is weak. It's a utility spec in a metagame where such utility is pointless: the only way snares will improve your dps is in Huttball snaring them over the fire or if they are snared within melee range while you are not stunned. If you're within melee range and not stunned you don't need them to be snared: marauders have enough slows and melee is forgiving enough to simply play catch-up and keep your damage on the target. The snares are a gimmick.

 

What marauders need is a way to do damage from afar or to close the gap when the opponent separates via a stun or knockback (much more common than being slowed and unable to keep up to a running foe). To this end annihilation and rage provide solutions (bleeds/faster charge CD and obliterate/ranged force damage/burst). Carnage provides no such solution.

 

The theory behind carnage is to spam Massacre, which is mildly stronger than Vicious Slash only if vicious slash is not talented for +15% crit. It also gives free crit force scream which are weaker than force screams from the rage tree, although crits in that tree are luck-based. The benefit of the carnage tree over any of the other trees is Gore. All that needs to be said, then, is this.

 

Gore is broken. It's 4.5 seconds of usefulness are too easily denied, it's rage cost too high to maintain sustained dps if you go for burst during the gore, and the gore benefit itself is only useful vs high armor mitigation, while a large percentage of damage is actually blocked by shields(i.e. barrier abilities) or defensive abilities on cooldowns (which gore does not help against). Gore is broken and thus so is carnage.

 

To the "prove it" comments, just save it. No one can prove anything, and to force us to provide proof when you can't do it yourself is ludicrous. Look at the talents: based purely on the theorycraft differences between the specs, carnage can only be better in very select scenarios, and it's not worth speccing into for that, unless you find it to be fun.

 

 

 

Answers to in thread crap:

No proof=carnage is not worse. That's fine. Anyone, however, who would take that to mean carnage is better than annihilation or rage needs to think really hard about why I'm calling them dumb and bad.

 

Theorycraft/=/proof. Ok, but then no one has anything to go on. All numbers are bogus, I've said it before. There's no way to defend or attack any spec without theorycrafting...

 

Carnage snares>obliterate/bleeds. I answer this in my thread. Deadly throw root is worthless: if they're too far to melee than snaring them won't do you any good without you closing the gap, and while you're closing the gap they have the options of snaring, stunning, or using an escape ability: what then? Carnage has no answer to any of these things, the other specs do.

 

Annihilation bleeds dispelled. Fine, it's true that this can be done. But dispelling=GCD=time wasted not healing/attacking. Also, while we're on the topic of good players.

No good player will EVER let the marauder channel ravage. It's the only channeled ability we have that can be interrupted by the target (force choke stuns them). There goes 1 snare.

No good player will ever let you wail on them just because they're snared. Every class has a stun or "vanish-esque" ability they will use when you snare and gore: you wasted your CDs then. Rage is predictable? No joke, but Carnage is no better.

Sustained damage vs burst: Carnage loses in both. Annihilation pulls sustained damage out of bleeds and mixes in vicious slashes/annihilates which are not only bursty but can give more rupture uptime and thus more rage. Rage itself has force crush, an ability which deals far more damage than deadly throw, lasts longer, and does more damage than 20% healing prevents. This ability also costs the same amount as deadly throw. Massacre costs the same as vicious slash, but lacks the 15% chance to crit... Carnage is rage-starved and thus burst trades off with sustained.

 

 

For those that wish to dismiss the theorycraft fine, but don't claim carnage is better than or equal to rage/annihilation. If theorycraft is out the window so are any of your arguments. For those claiming carnage is the new annihilate, understand I used annihilate when rage was the end-all. Big crits are not my sole focus.

I was BM pre 1.1, so don't act like I'm some undergeared <50 scrub. I've cycled through every spec with all of my gear changes and rest assured I understand how and when carnage abilities are meant to be used, as well as rage maintenance.

In my opinion carnage is the worst of the three specs without any significant advantage except in Huttball, and the only way your opinion would be more valid is if you have either a) the skill to back it up (you don't) or b) the proof (you don't). Thus I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours: except mine is backed up by experience and actual analysis,. while yours are backed up with feelings and fun

 

 

TLDR; I've come to realize that not only is carnage bad (old news), but that those who defend it are short-sighted and dumb. (not those who like it, as you can like whatever you want. Just those who claim it's better than rage. Yeah right.)

[Axcys]

If you think for a second ravage is the main damage dealing ability in carnage, that is why you don't think its any good. ravage is not a "use it every time its up" ability. It's situational and should only be used after your target has used any escape or knock back it has.

 

How is it that mmos have gotten this popular and whenever a new one comes out people don't realize how powerful a dispel is until 6 months after release. A dispel that gets rid of rupture and deadly saber in ONE SHOT is effectively a preemptive heal for well over 6k plus 10% damage to you by preventing the healing you would have done to yourself PLUS a rage starve. That is more powerful then any casted heal or damage ability they have. If they dispel the ball carrier you are hitting and simply throw a shield on them it could be the squishiest target in the game and they can waltz right across the goal line while laughing at your pathetic damage from annihilate and um.... annihilate. If you fail to see this thats your own problem. In a couple of weeks when the healers on your server figure that out, good luck.

 

As the most popular example Ill use affliction locks vs dispel in wow. There was a point where purge got so obnoxious that they had to add an ability that would nuke and silence a person when they used a dispel on their dots. Guess what. Later down the road, even with that it was STILL worth it to dispel their dots.

 

So you might think your king of the world and the most skilled and experienced person on the planet but to me all I see is someone who cant do simple math.

[ThisGuyThat]

If you think for a second ravage is the main damage dealing ability in carnage, that is why you don't think its any good. ravage is not a "use it every time its up" ability. It's situational and should only be used after your target has used any escape or knock back it has.

 

How is it that mmos have gotten this popular and whenever a new one comes out people don't realize how powerful a dispel is until 6 months after release. A dispel that gets rid of rupture and deadly saber in ONE SHOT is effectively a preemptive heal for well over 6k plus 10% damage to you by preventing the healing you would have done to yourself PLUS a rage starve. That is more powerful then any casted heal or damage ability they have. If they dispel the ball carrier you are hitting and simply throw a shield on them it could be the squishiest target in the game and they can waltz right across the goal line while laughing at your pathetic damage from annihilate and um.... annihilate. If you fail to see this thats your own problem. In a couple of weeks when the healers on your server figure that out, good luck.

 

As the most popular example Ill use affliction locks vs dispel in wow. There was a point where purge got so obnoxious that they had to add an ability that would nuke and silence a person when they used a dispel on their dots. Guess what. Later down the road, even with that it was STILL worth it to dispel their dots.

 

So you might think your king of the world and the most skilled and experienced person on the planet but to me all I see is someone who cant do simple math.

 

Math? What math? There. Is. No. Math.

 

Theorycraft and mathcraft is different, though when you toss around ******** like 6k you prove that even if I did use math, you'd exaggerate and make it worthless.

 

Regardless, the dispel costs energy/force, uses GCD, and must be used to deny not only the <12 sec CD rupture (CD reset by annihilate and vicious slash), and every stack of deadly saber (if they dispel all three stacks it means 1-2 stacks already ticked 2-3 times...)

 

Anywho, pseudo-math aside, annihilation should not be the target of your dismissal, as annihilation and carnage are on totally different spectrums of damage and rotation. Why is carnage better than rage? Lower numbers... weaker burst... more gore-dependent...no obliterate/force crush....massacre=vicious slash+a bit of damage, no +15% crit..

 

All you get is mildly less telegraphing, 2 snares (1 interruptible the other costs 3 rage), and no/much less AoE. Gratz, you beat me with math.

[ThisGuyThat]

you really dont have any sense of pvp do you?

 

with roots, you can control your opponent.

 

You can always position yourself expecting for a knockback,

 

Immobilizing Ravage is a skill that forces your opponent to cc you or take big *** whopping.

 

Deadly Throw can be used after getting knockbacked, if necessary you use force camo after that and reach your target without using charge.

Deadly Throws root is specially good against casters with force speed.

 

I suggest those who are having big problems with knocbacks.

 

Stop doing this http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Ski+Jumping+Day+1+bm2gRRRMybnl.jpg

 

every time your next to a class with a knockback, put your back against a wall/pole anything.

 

on paper knocback pushes you away from your opponent but you can still control if its possible in current terrain or if you can position yourself so you get knockbacked to same direction where your opponent was going.

 

Immobilizing ravage does not require CC... lmfao. 1 interrupt, much less skill/thinking than dispelling bleeds... Everyone in a competitive PvP environment will break the channel...

 

If you seriously think deadly throw+force camo makes sense, than I advise you to seriously reconsider your pvp playstyle... blowing 3 rage and a 45 second CD on (arguably) our strongest gap close/escape mechanism when annihilation tree can just wait a few seconds for a charge and rage can use obliterate to break the snare for the same rage cost.... what...

 

Also, knockbacks can do crazy stuff. Some slow you, some send you directions you didn't expect due to latency, and some will hit you when you think you're out of range. You can't just sit on one side of a guy anyways: if you're not being mobile as melee, than you're doing it wrong (is why ravage is such a bad ability btw)

[AIRCONGO]

I'm now a lvl 50 Marauder. I started out as Anni spec for PvE but struggled while using it for PvP. Then I respecced for Carnage once I hit 50 (5-31-5) and boy I never looked back! The Ataru form and the bonus hits are awesome. Might I add when you combine Gore followed by force scream critting up to 4k. Following with Massacare too! Have plenty survivabilty I've found with cloak of pain, ward, undying rage, predation, force camo.

[Warlordomega]

Copy and pasting my previous post

I've said this too many times already. Carnage is weak. It's a utility spec in a metagame where such utility is pointless: the only way snares will improve your dps is in Huttball snaring them over the fire or if they are snared within melee range while you are not stunned. If you're within melee range and not stunned you don't need them to be snared: marauders have enough slows and melee is forgiving enough to simply play catch-up and keep your damage on the target. The snares are a gimmick.

 

What marauders need is a way to do damage from afar or to close the gap when the opponent separates via a stun or knockback (much more common than being slowed and unable to keep up to a running foe). To this end annihilation and rage provide solutions (bleeds/faster charge CD and obliterate/ranged force damage/burst). Carnage provides no such solution.

 

The theory behind carnage is to spam Massacre, which is mildly stronger than Vicious Slash only if vicious slash is not talented for +15% crit. It also gives free crit force scream which are weaker than force screams from the rage tree, although crits in that tree are luck-based. The benefit of the carnage tree over any of the other trees is Gore. All that needs to be said, then, is this.

 

Gore is broken. It's 4.5 seconds of usefulness are too easily denied, it's rage cost too high to maintain sustained dps if you go for burst during the gore, and the gore benefit itself is only useful vs high armor mitigation, while a large percentage of damage is actually blocked by shields(i.e. barrier abilities) or defensive abilities on cooldowns (which gore does not help against). Gore is broken and thus so is carnage.

 

To the "prove it" comments, just save it. No one can prove anything, and to force us to provide proof when you can't do it yourself is ludicrous. Look at the talents: based purely on the theorycraft differences between the specs, carnage can only be better in very select scenarios, and it's not worth speccing into for that, unless you find it to be fun.

 

 

 

Answers to in thread crap:

No proof=carnage is not worse. That's fine. Anyone, however, who would take that to mean carnage is better than annihilation or rage needs to think really hard about why I'm calling them dumb and bad.

 

Theorycraft/=/proof. Ok, but then no one has anything to go on. All numbers are bogus, I've said it before. There's no way to defend or attack any spec without theorycrafting...

 

Carnage snares>obliterate/bleeds. I answer this in my thread. Deadly throw root is worthless: if they're too far to melee than snaring them won't do you any good without you closing the gap, and while you're closing the gap they have the options of snaring, stunning, or using an escape ability: what then? Carnage has no answer to any of these things, the other specs do.

 

Annihilation bleeds dispelled. Fine, it's true that this can be done. But dispelling=GCD=time wasted not healing/attacking. Also, while we're on the topic of good players.

No good player will EVER let the marauder channel ravage. It's the only channeled ability we have that can be interrupted by the target (force choke stuns them). There goes 1 snare.

No good player will ever let you wail on them just because they're snared. Every class has a stun or "vanish-esque" ability they will use when you snare and gore: you wasted your CDs then. Rage is predictable? No joke, but Carnage is no better.

Sustained damage vs burst: Carnage loses in both. Annihilation pulls sustained damage out of bleeds and mixes in vicious slashes/annihilates which are not only bursty but can give more rupture uptime and thus more rage. Rage itself has force crush, an ability which deals far more damage than deadly throw, lasts longer, and does more damage than 20% healing prevents. This ability also costs the same amount as deadly throw. Massacre costs the same as vicious slash, but lacks the 15% chance to crit... Carnage is rage-starved and thus burst trades off with sustained.

 

 

For those that wish to dismiss the theorycraft fine, but don't claim carnage is better than or equal to rage/annihilation. If theorycraft is out the window so are any of your arguments. For those claiming carnage is the new annihilate, understand I used annihilate when rage was the end-all. Big crits are not my sole focus.

I was BM pre 1.1, so don't act like I'm some undergeared <50 scrub. I've cycled through every spec with all of my gear changes and rest assured I understand how and when carnage abilities are meant to be used, as well as rage maintenance.

In my opinion carnage is the worst of the three specs without any significant advantage except in Huttball, and the only way your opinion would be more valid is if you have either a) the skill to back it up (you don't) or b) the proof (you don't). Thus I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours: except mine is backed up by experience and actual analysis,. while yours are backed up with feelings and fun

 

 

TLDR; I've come to realize that not only is carnage bad (old news), but that those who defend it are short-sighted and dumb. (not those who like it, as you can like whatever you want. Just those who claim it's better than rage. Yeah right.)

 

I stoped reading at "gore is only u seful on heavier armour people" it mad eme lol so hard i pissed myself. bypassing 100 percent arm on anyone is so huge because its like they have nothing on regardles sof what arm type they have. this right here is your oppinion sir and by the BS facts and knowledge youv shown id say its just not your playstyle/spec get over it lol because you made no valid point at all.. all u did was bash it on flaws but beefed up therest.... im sorry but most people will disagree with you on your invalid facts seeing as many ppl are having a blast with it... go get some stuff to support your theory pls or its invalid and just an oppinion

[Naethion]

Well, let the Annihilators Annihilate, and let the Ragers Smash. I like Carnage. you HAVE to make it work. keep practicing with it and you will be near unstoppable once you perfect it. So against all odds I'm gonna keep using it until I become a significant threat. Everyone has their own playstyle, and if they really like it they will work at it. Thats all I want to say.

[Axcys]

Well, let the Annihilators Annihilate, and let the Ragers Smash. I like Carnage. you HAVE to make it work. keep practicing with it and you will be near unstoppable once you perfect it. So against all odds I'm gonna keep using it until I become a significant threat. Everyone has their own playstyle, and if they really like it they will work at it. Thats all I want to say.

 

I agree. If its not your play style, it's not your play style. Doesn't mean its bad. Trust me I wouldn't use a spec with subpar damage. If i was constantly not top damage in a warzone or didn't feel like i was killing anyone I would switch specs.

[Maxxacre]

Math? What math? There. Is. No. Math.

 

Theorycraft and mathcraft is different, though when you toss around ******** like 6k you prove that even if I did use math, you'd exaggerate and make it worthless.

 

Regardless, the dispel costs energy/force, uses GCD, and must be used to deny not only the <12 sec CD rupture (CD reset by annihilate and vicious slash), and every stack of deadly saber (if they dispel all three stacks it means 1-2 stacks already ticked 2-3 times...)

 

Umm... if your argument that healers aren't actually going to use Purge is that it uses GCD and costs Force... you're completely lost in the sauce.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/aQq06F0/purge

 

Purge costs 30 Force and has a 4.5 second cooldown. To compare, Static Barrier costs 45 Force and has a 4.5 second cooldown as well. By your "logic," should Sorcerers not use Static Barrier because "it uses GCD and costs Force?" No. That's stupid. Why would a healer, or even a regular DPS spec Sorc, EVER not use purge on your DOTs? The answer is simple: if he's totally bad at the game.

 

You really are beaten in this argument and you just keep digging your grave deeper. The point is, Annihilation is great against an entire team of scrub lowbies or complete noobs who just faceroll their head across their keyboard, but against anyone with even the slightest amount of skill, you will be totally shut down by 3 of the 8 ACs in this game with one very simple ability. 30 Force is absolutely nothing to a Sorcerer, and they would be foolish to "not waste the GCD" on an ability that can shut out most of your damage entirely. Your argument makes absolutely no sense. Do you even think before you post?

[HandyAndy]

All this carnage love makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Love playing the carnage tree.

[Pappus]

I stoped reading at "gore is only u seful on heavier armour people" it mad eme lol so hard i pissed myself. bypassing 100 percent arm on anyone is so huge because its like they have nothing on regardles sof what arm type they have. this right here is your oppinion sir and by the BS facts and knowledge youv shown id say its just not your playstyle/spec get over it lol because you made no valid point at all.. all u did was bash it on flaws but beefed up therest.... im sorry but most people will disagree with you on your invalid facts seeing as many ppl are having a blast with it... go get some stuff to support your theory pls or its invalid and just an oppinion

 

He is not completely without merrit.

 

Ravage root will mostly only work on that monster juggernaut that jumped to the goal line, where carnage starts to shine, because he will have many people on him and it will be next to impossible to even target you in time thanks to the UI, if you are not alone.

 

It is such situations where the ravage root is useful you can triple snare someone, wait 3secs and have another 6 seconds of root. This can turn out very priceless. Also the usual charge someone on the firepit so he does his breakfree into immediate saber throw will look him dead. No resolvebar will help against that, which is simply a huge +++

 

To go out here and say, that carnage is bull without gore is like saying annihilation without deadly saber or even annihilate if you look at the burst.

 

Guess what annihilate is on a phat CD aswell and is your only burst either except for maybe dot dot choke (cheers gluten).

 

The cd on gore isn't that long either so I don't even know why it is brought up so constantly.

 

Carnage has the bigger burst and although you won't notice gore much at all vs anything but heavy armored it will still boost the dmg to 20-30% on those lower armor type players. Biggest + is simply that it uses a force attack to deliver the burst so it will work against anyone unlike annihilate that can be green bubbled or simply parried by someone with saber ward active etc. Even if it goes through it won't hit a tank stanced player anyway.

 

Burst goes to carnage, survivability to annihilation and that is all there is to it. If you don't mind to spend a lot of time ooc regging and prefer to burst take carnage or rage.

[DarthBoga]

i've been lurking this thread, and feel maybe there are a few things people missed.

for one thing, all this talk about theorycraft without actual theorycraft

this is NOT theory craft: ''i loove my spec, dots are so good, even though (ever increasing amount of arguments why anni is not as good as they think), i still think you're a mean stupidhead if you don't play the same way as i do''

this IS theory craft: Annihalation gets roughly equivalant mobility, Less CC, sustained damage , plus a BOATLOAD of healing relative to carnage spec. logic (and balance) dictate that carnage and rage MUST do more burst damage - everyone claiming anni has better burst is just talking out of their bottoms.

also i want to echo something another person said, in that i consider myself a competitive PvP player and would change my spec to annihalation if i wasn't getting top dps and k/d with carnage.

[Mafiro]

i would make the arguement that rage has the best anti-kite mechanisms. with force crush and obliterate (which increases movement speed by 40% for 5 sec after every use) people kiting me is not one of my complaints. also lets not forget crippling slash which we all get. 50% speed reduction for 12sec (i think) does just fine for me when combined with the aforementioned abilities.

 

Also, on a different note, some of the most revolutionary discoveries ever made in science were done without "data" and "tests" or even math. Einstein discovered relativity with a simple thought experiment. Sound, logical, conclusions can outweigh anyhting else sometimes.

[WarlordThuran]

Ok, after all this discussion, I decided to give annihilation a try. Note that this is an absolute first pvp impression, and I have been playing carnage since day 1.

 

So far annihilation seems like an absolutely HORRIBLE specc in pvp.

 

- So rage-starved its not even funny, I canhardly ever use my abilities at all, whereas as carnage, i go in and throw nonstop attacks for easily up to 3-5 mins in large fights without interruption, in part thanks to ravage which i wont even consider using as annihililation as annihilitation's only root is charge.

 

- No CC, charge stops the enemy for a bit sure, force choke doesnt count as you cant attack in the meantime, but it is increadibly frustrating not being able to keep your enemy standing still while you carve their face in. As Carnage i can keep an enemy fixed in place for most of the fight through a combo of Charge, Saber throw, and ravage, here they just CC me and run away.

 

- No burst, all of Annihilation's attacks are based around dots, this means that you dont see an immidieate return on your abilities but have to wait until the damage manifests, this means that the enemy have time to attack you back and dont have to deal with the psychological aspect of seeing your health bar bursted. Some will point to how annihilate has large burst, but here is the catch: you can't use it! Force charge in itself does NOT give enough rage to use annihilate and so it's delegated to being your third attack at earliest, which in many pvp fights is just too late, whereas as mentioned above, once you start a fight with carnage you burst all the time and right from the start.

 

- No survivability! This is my biggest gripe with annihilation, you go into a fight and instantly blow up, so far I seem to be dying more than twice as fast as I would with carnage, which is probably caused by a mix of the enemy running around as much as they damn please and a reliable on aoe damage since they don't have to actually target us with aoe, which if it is the case also means that they deal a 30% less damage against a carnage marauder most of the time due to defensive roll. Yes annihilation has force camouflage (which cant be used while stunned, so once every 2 mins especially if you blow your unleash early, oh and attacking breaks the immunity) and in theory heals from dots, but the problem is that 1% unreliable heal from a dot that needs time to actually work simply isn't a viable counter for the insane burst put out by enemies and so ends up not even being a factor most of the time! Beserk would help, but beserk requires you to throw out 8 rage-use abilities before it can be accessed. Again, in pvp this almost never comes into play, and in pve you aren't supposed to be taking damage anyway except from aoe, which, surprise, is reduced by defensive roll.

 

 

 

This was a completely first impression, but so far i HATE this build and it seems to be weaker in every regard (including fun) compared to carnage. Will update later when I have gotten into the rythm of it, but i doubt i will be able to last until tonight without going back to Carnage.

[EasymodeX]

also i want to echo something another person said, in that i consider myself a competitive PvP player and would change my spec to annihalation if i wasn't getting top dps and k/d with carnage

 

A "competitive PvP player" would spend a week as each spec. You would realize that a DS tick + Annihilate + Rupture tick is more burst damage in 1.0 seconds than Carnage can put out.

 

Note that this is an absolute first pvp impression, and I have been playing carnage since day 1.

 

So far annihilation seems like an absolutely HORRIBLE specc in pvp.

 

Why even bother posting?

 

It takes several nights to get a general handle, and a week or more to get a very good handle on a spec. Your entire post is off-base from top to bottom. You also evidence using a bad spec. Your specific statements also imply that you play somewhat poorly.

 

Maybe you should actually make a non-lame effort at playing your new spec before drama-queening this thread.

 

 

Edit:

 

Bottom line is that Carnage underperforms because 99% of the game is pug vs. pug. The capabilities that Carnage provides are only relevant against premades, and the weaknesses of Carn demand a premade to support it. Even then, it's only "mostly competitive".

Edited January 26, 2012 by EasymodeX

[jimlaheysadrunk]

A "competitive PvP player" would spend a week as each spec. You would realize that a DS tick + Annihilate + Rupture tick is more burst damage in 1.0 seconds than Carnage can put out.

 

 

 

Why even bother posting?

 

It takes several nights to get a general handle, and a week or more to get a very good handle on a spec. Your entire post is off-base from top to bottom. You also evidence using a bad spec. Your specific statements also imply that you play somewhat poorly.

 

Maybe you should actually make a non-lame effort at playing your new spec before drama-queening this thread.

 

 

youre doing the same thing the other guy was doing......

[Majinr]

youre doing the same thing the other guy was doing......

 

no easymode is actually right , Annihaltion does do better than carnage as I have yet to see a carnage beat a Anni marauder in any sitaution.. Carnage is excellent but has to many weaknesses esp against healers (who know what they are doing) - a carnage will struggle to kill a healer - this is because if the inital burst damage is healed through or shielded through ( usually what happens with sorc/sage) then ur pretty much doing negligible damage

 

Now with as an Anni -we are the healers worst nightmare, constantly ticking dots plus Annihalte which has 66 % chance to reset rupture (if healer decides to dispell) pretty much means constant damage plus the burst from Annihalte - crippling slash, shorter cd on force leap if they decide to run away and constant heals - impossible for a healer to do anything productive instead jus heal himself and that's only if he can due to shorter cd on disruption as well as an Anni - One more point if you think that displeling dots helps = wrong , caus Anni can pretty much keep up 3 stacks of deadly saber at all times and rupture which has + 50% to reset meaning it doesnt affect any damage at all

 

Anni just has better tools to annoy and survive for longer - burst doesnt mean anything if you cannot survive - he who survives longer does more damage

 

But if you want burst your better off with Rage anyway , the only advantages I can see as a carnage are the roots - but ravage can be easily interrupted ( I always do) and is currently a bit bugged and 3 sec root on throw which does medicore damage + 3 rage cost = meh good in certain situations

Edited January 26, 2012 by Majinr

[WarlordThuran]

Why even bother posting?

 

It takes several nights to get a general handle, and a week or more to get a very good handle on a spec. Your entire post is off-base from top to bottom. You also evidence using a bad spec. Your specific statements also imply that you play somewhat poorly.

 

Maybe you should actually make a non-lame effort at playing your new spec before drama-queening this thread.

 

 

Because it's written for people who think before they reply.

 

By giving both a first impression as well as an impression of how things are later on when you have gotten a better hold of it allows for comparison and thus a clearer picture of whether enjoyment anf effectivenesss of a build is connected to the build itself or to the player simply not being used to it. "Before: its crap, After: its going better now" gives more info than "midway: meh, it's average".

 

Also, maybe there was quite a clear reason as to why i noted TWICE that it was an absolute first impression, and noting that I have played carnage for over a month? Maybe next time you want to actually read the post before simply jumping to conclusions and calling someone lame for it?

 

So far im on my third warzone, handling of the rotation has gotten better, but not to the point where I am ready to write a followup yet, although I am still baffled by what you guys see in it, still waaaaay too slow in dmg for me.

[WarlordThuran]

no easymode is actually right , Annihaltion does do better than carnage as I have yet to see a carnage beat a Anni marauder in any sitaution.. Carnage is excellent but has to many weaknesses esp against healers (who know what they are doing) - a carnage will struggle to kill a healer - this is because if the inital burst damage is healed through or shielded through ( usually what happens with sorc/sage) then ur pretty much doing negligible damage

 

Now with as an Anni -we are the healers worst nightmare, constantly ticking dots plus Annihalte which has 66 % chance to reset rupture (if healer decides to dispell) pretty much means constant damage plus the burst from Annihalte - crippling slash, shorter cd on force leap if they decide to run away and constant heals - impossible for a healer to do anything productive instead jus heal himself and that's only if he can due to shorter cd on disruption as well as an Anni - One more point if you think that displeling dots helps = wrong , caus Anni can pretty much keep up 3 stacks of deadly saber at all times and rupture which has + 50% to reset meaning it doesnt affect any damage at all

 

Anni just has better tools to annoy and survive for longer - burst doesnt mean anything if you cannot survive - he who survives longer does more damage

 

 

Actually, those are the opposites of my impressions so far. Mostly regarding the survivability i still find that even pulling off all my moves correctly by now, the anni marauder is WAAAAAAY more squishy than Carnage ever was, mostly due to the heals being too little too slow. It's a lot better when beserk finally starts kicking in, however the biggest problem there is that it requires you to use 8 rage abilities to get it activated, which with the already abyssmal rage use to gain ratio for annihilation seems to more often than not result in your being dead before finally getting there.

 

As for healing, so far ive seen that you are absolutely correct, if you are punching a healer, but if you are attacking someone with a healer nearby (like punching a healer with another healer) it seems to be the exact opposite, that they apparently have an easier time healing the slow damage of annihilation than the bursts I can throw at them with carnage, mostly because the target can still move as opposed to being permarooted and because I can't spam my abilities for constant damage the same way I can with carnage, the dps also suffers from enemy damage reduction meaning that most dots seem to tick for a measly 2-300, while annihilate only deals around 3000 damage, which is aprox the same damage i can pump out with my force scream on carnage, only on a lower cooldown and with more damage in between to back it up.

 

By the way, "not able to do anything productive" you seem to forget about the enemy CC Or you have been lucky enough to meet enemies that aren't as intelligent as mine, as they always seem to have a flashbag, a root, or a knockdown ready to use, especially right after unleash. Well timed CC can easily break up the rythm of the annihilation rotation from what ive experienced so far.

 

Losing GCD and rage to deadly saber is also a problem in terms of how fluid the build feels so far but one which I imagine you would get used to over time, so far my main gripes with the playstyle are still the same: squishy, slow, and lacks any CC compared to carnage, which is especially a problem in huttball where you cannot afford to wait for your abilities to all go off and where i find that i miss being able to root my target for up to 10 seconds without giving them any resolve from it, especially during the final stretch to your finish line.

 

As another note, being used to the passive +15% movement speed buff carnage has also makes moving around with the class feeling a bit cumbersome, but in return charge is so much better

 

5th game so far, slow queue this morning.

[EasymodeX]

Hey guys, I tried a Sorc last night for about 30 minutes. It was my absolute first impression. I'll say it twice: it was my absolute first impression. But you know what, Sorc sucks. I should write a lengthy post detailing how terrible my experience was. I mean, I can't believe anyone goes Madness spec. Wait, I should:

 

- It doesn't do any damage, with all these DOTs floating around, especially when I have to spend 2 seconds casting the crushing mind (?) DOT. Everyone's cleansing them and healing through them, it just seems like I'm wasting buttons when I press them.

 

- The damage is too easy to mess up. I tried to Force Lightning people but they kept running out of line of sight, or they would interrupt me. Then I couldn't do anything for like 4 seconds!

 

- The healing is totally overrated. It takes like 3 seconds to cast, and all the players I tried to heal died too fast. The light armor is terrible too. I fell over like a limp noodle whenever any class looked at me. And guess what, all my heals got interrupted too! Some posts on the PvP forums say a Sorc can tank, what a joke.

 

- The utility is terrible, too. My Force Speed basically doesn't work when every other enemy roots you, the knockback pushes them back like 2 meters. I don't know why people complain about the kiting all the time. I barely got anywhere (except once when I ran too fast into the fire lol).

 

But, just so we're clear, it was my first impression of the Sorc. Maybe it'll get better when I get more used to it, but the gameplay is so bad on the class that I don't know if I'll be able to stick with it for more than an hour. Be sure to follow my blog though, warzone-by-warzone updates on this silly class!

[oMGitsree]

Annihilation has the best DPS on a stationary target.

 

 

Rage was "the" PvP spec for a while because a video smashing lowbies. Take what people say (like the guy above) especially on this forum with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

This is true. I had a guy corner me and ask me why the hell I would even bother with Carnage, because it was too hard to understand or manage. To each his own man. SOme people are just able to juggle it or come up with better combos to make Carnage work. DOn't smash other people's specs, maybe they gasp...know what they are doing.