Hate to be that guy

[Shrilokka]

But is scoundrel OP? I'm not sure because i don't see them often in PVP. Anyways I play a tank and have 55% damage reduction in PVP and I was repeatedly killed in just 3 or 4 seconds by the same scoundrel... i think she lived the entire WZ...

 

Her and I are both lvl 40

Edited January 25, 2012 by Shrilokka

[Degarmo]

Scrappers can tear you up with front end damage.

[Thradar]

But is scoundrel OP?

 

As someone who has a scoundrel...I LOL'd.

[Kheldras]

Unless you have Zero Expertise and your Attacker 500.. no. Edited January 25, 2012 by Kheldras

[kifa]

I was repeatedly killed in just 3 or 4 seconds by the same scoundrel.

 

And now you know how Tony Montana felt when he took a nosedive into the fountain

[Wren_Atticus]

I'm a lvl 38 Scrapper/Scoundrel. I do quite well in War Zones. I've always died at least once and I can't kill anyone in 3-4 seconds. I can win a lot of fights, but I've never killed someone during the duration of my Shoot First knock-down.

 

My gear is pretty good and I'm sitting on 30% crit with my buff up. I do well, but would not say we are OP.

[Devhyn]

But is scoundrel OP? I'm not sure because i don't see them often in PVP. Anyways I play a tank and have 55% damage reduction in PVP and I was repeatedly killed in just 3 or 4 seconds by the same scoundrel... i think she lived the entire WZ...

 

Her and I are both lvl 40

 

55% damage reduction from...armor rating, I'm guessing? Because you certainly wouldn't have much from expertise at 40. Anyway, you shouldn't be dying in '3 or 4 seconds' as a tank unless you are wasting your cooldowns elsewhere, and she's attacking you with the expertise buff every time. Especially at level 40... do you just sit there after she knocks you on your butt or something?

[Wisers]

Defense rating and armor don't mitigate tech (internal) damage afaik. It mitigates white hits (all classes' auto-shot abilities) but not yellows.

[Tamanous]

You sure this is recent?

 

I have not seen a single op/scoundrel be able to even come close to dismantling my med/conceal hybrid op and tank shadow since last patch.

 

The only way that could happen is if they had VERY good gear and you have very poor gear and bolster resulted in far better scaling.

 

If you have mostly purples at level 40 you will pwn face against nearly anyone with lesser gear due to bolster.

 

Remember that with bolster you actually get weaker the farther above the level of gear you have. A level 40 with pvp blues is actually more powerful than a level 41,42,43 if they haven't upgraded any gear. A level 40+ with same level purple mods would be a god.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tamanous

[Wheem]

Yes, (Scrapper spec'd) Scoundrels have too much burst damage right now. I've spent the overwhelming majority of my time healer spec'd, but was Scrapper for a brief while recently - anyone who thinks that spec doesn't need some nerfs is simply delusional. To be completely honest, I was even kinda bad at playing the spec since it was my first time with it and I wasn't used to the hotkeys; didn't stop me from completely dominating virtually everyone I targeted, though.

 

Still, Scrapper (and their Imperial counterparts) aren't the only overpowered classes/specs in the game - damage in general is a bit too high right now. Fighting almost any skilled, well geared, level 50 dps class makes the game feel like a first person shooter, and that's bad for skill-based PvP.

[NightHawke]

My scrapper after getting shoot first and flechette round has killed people (usually 15-30 levels under him) before they get up. But a lot of times fights last longer since more skilled players get up from getting knocked down and enable their class defensive features.

 

Then things get interesting.

 

I do not feel like I am overpowered because unlike other classes, if the other guy gets healed somehow, or a buddy shows up, I go down pretty quick, unless I can escape or kill one of them fast.

 

I get one shot to end a fight. If I blow it, I go down harder than Apollo in Rocky IV.

[Korschsans]

I am rolling an operative and naming him Drago just so that when you drop like Apollo I can say "If he dies, he dies":D

[Abanoth]

Scoundrels are fine. But operatives are the most broken class in the history classes, that's why there were so many QQ threads about them.

[Hobocore]

Scoundrels are fine. But operatives are the most broken class in the history classes, that's why there were so many QQ threads about them.

 

 

They are the same, you know.

[ThePedia]

Defense rating and armor don't mitigate tech (internal) damage afaik. It mitigates white hits (all classes' auto-shot abilities) but not yellows.

 

Tech attacks aren't affected by avoidance (dodge, parry, deflect) but Scrapper tech attacks (for the most part) deal Kinetic damage, which is mitigated by armor. Our bleeds (Internal damage) are not mitigated by armor.

[Tycoon]

 

They are the same, you know.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I have been looking all over youtube for something like this. You have to love Billy Madison!!

[Corran]

Yes, (Scrapper spec'd) Scoundrels have too much burst damage right now. I've spent the overwhelming majority of my time healer spec'd, but was Scrapper for a brief while recently - anyone who thinks that spec doesn't need some nerfs is simply delusional. To be completely honest, I was even kinda bad at playing the spec since it was my first time with it and I wasn't used to the hotkeys; didn't stop me from completely dominating virtually everyone I targeted, though.

 

Still, Scrapper (and their Imperial counterparts) aren't the only overpowered classes/specs in the game - damage in general is a bit too high right now. Fighting almost any skilled, well geared, level 50 dps class makes the game feel like a first person shooter, and that's bad for skill-based PvP.

 

as someone with a battlemaster scoundrel and a rank 50 sage i can safely say..

 

 

..you are wrong, good sir.

[Wheem]

as someone with a battlemaster scoundrel and a rank 50 sage i can safely say..

 

 

..you are wrong, good sir.

Negative. The burst damage of that spec is indefensible in its current state, period. Does it need some (non-damage) buffs to compensate for the impending nerfs? Possibly, I'm certainly open to the idea since utility and survivability were/are pretty bad. But the kill speed I was getting with a Centurion Scattergun and mostly (but not full) Champion gear was just over the top.

 

Dropping someone that fast isn't good for a system that aims for anything close to resembling skill-based PvP.

 

PS

I never said that Operatives/Scoundrels were the only ones with damage that's too high.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Wheem

[alonephoenix]

Negative. The burst damage of that spec is indefensible in its current state, period. Does it need some (non-damage) buffs to compensate for the impending nerfs? Possibly, I'm certainly open to the idea since utility and survivability were/are pretty bad. But the kill speed I was getting with a Centurion Scattergun and mostly (but not full) Champion gear was just over the top.

 

Dropping someone that fast isn't good for a system that aims for anything close to resembling skill-based PvP.

 

PS

I never said that Operatives/Scoundrels were the only ones with damage that's too high.

 

Negative. You fail to understand the role of this spec. This spec, and it's respective IA counterpart function based only on the following aspects:

1. Stealth. Not being aware of the presence of the character.

2. High front end damage. The spec lacks the energy and throughput to actually cause hurt to a target over an extended time frame.

3. Your stupidity. This spec rewarded you for being a hunter, and being very selective of your victims. See a healer forgetting to heal himself? Blow him to pieces at 50% or less. See a Sage chilling on ramp blowing away a team with AoEs? Demolish him for standing away from the rest of the team.

 

What most other classes do in longer time, the scoundrel does quickly...

Wait for the catch....

Once every two minutes.

Assuming you blow everything to assure a kill, You are a TARGET until that time. With borked Stealth mechanics that leave you in combat for a short eternity if you hit someone who stays alive too long, You simply MUST hold your Vanish until a kill is placed, solely to escape.

 

Stealth is NOT a gap closer. It's an initiation. Much like Force Leap (Assuming you could only use it once per fight. Twice if you used a two minute CD.) is for JKs. Imagine a JK who could only Leap you once in the fight, only from out of combat, and a second time if he blew a 2 minute CD. You're starting to breach the issues with the class. You simply can't close gaps with everyone wielding CC as a Smuggler. Tendon Blast is probably going to be on CD. You're stuck.

 

Whenever you don't have a front-loaded damage dealer, you have either an executioner (Think of someone with lots of high damage, high cost, low CD skills.) or a sustained damage dealer. The Scrapper currently doesn't fill into any of those positions. The Dirty Fighting tree is almost comical.

 

I'm not here to spread doom and gloom. I think things will work out in the end. I think with some attention to stealth bugs, and ranged UH generator, both of these specs can start to enjoy significant quality of life improvements.

 

Ultimately: Front loaded damage for a Scoundrel means this: Never trinket the god-awful Cheap shot/K.O. It's really all you need to know to win. No class is going to kill you in 3 GCDs. I'm sorry. You're just not going to see it unless the deck was stacked against you in gear. (Guess what, This is the NATURE of these types of MMOs.)

 

If you believe this MMO has skill based PVP, You are completely and utterly delusional. If this was a skill-based PVP system, You would see characters getting their key abilities sooner than 36. You would see SIGNIFICANTLY higher health bars. You would see significantly more balance in CC distribution. (Troopers/BHs would flat out just not have one, or solely a Snare.) The Casters would have some of the best hard CC, and no shield to save them. The rogue-esque classes would have the greatest control over the flow of battle through their CCs, while still being in near melee range. Kiting a rogue class should be somewhat difficult, because they are designed to control the flow of the engagement. If you so much as tap them, they lose this ability without wasting CDs due to stealth bugs.

 

So no. Negative. You are missing the point.

[Natharon]

The problem with tanks in pvp is that shield chance/absorption is broken as all hell.

[Wheem]

Negative. You fail to understand the role of this spec. This spec, and it's respective IA counterpart function based only on the following aspects:

1. Stealth. Not being aware of the presence of the character.

2. High front end damage. The spec lacks the energy and throughput to actually cause hurt to a target over an extended time frame.

3. Your stupidity. This spec rewarded you for being a hunter, and being very selective of your victims. See a healer forgetting to heal himself? Blow him to pieces at 50% or less. See a Sage chilling on ramp blowing away a team with AoEs? Demolish him for standing away from the rest of the team.

 

What most other classes do in longer time, the scoundrel does quickly...

Wait for the catch....

Once every two minutes.

Assuming you blow everything to assure a kill, You are a TARGET until that time. With borked Stealth mechanics that leave you in combat for a short eternity if you hit someone who stays alive too long, You simply MUST hold your Vanish until a kill is placed, solely to escape.

 

Stealth is NOT a gap closer. It's an initiation. Much like Force Leap (Assuming you could only use it once per fight. Twice if you used a two minute CD.) is for JKs. Imagine a JK who could only Leap you once in the fight, only from out of combat, and a second time if he blew a 2 minute CD. You're starting to breach the issues with the class. You simply can't close gaps with everyone wielding CC as a Smuggler. Tendon Blast is probably going to be on CD. You're stuck.

 

Whenever you don't have a front-loaded damage dealer, you have either an executioner (Think of someone with lots of high damage, high cost, low CD skills.) or a sustained damage dealer. The Scrapper currently doesn't fill into any of those positions. The Dirty Fighting tree is almost comical.

 

I'm not here to spread doom and gloom. I think things will work out in the end. I think with some attention to stealth bugs, and ranged UH generator, both of these specs can start to enjoy significant quality of life improvements.

 

Ultimately: Front loaded damage for a Scoundrel means this: Never trinket the god-awful Cheap shot/K.O. It's really all you need to know to win. No class is going to kill you in 3 GCDs. I'm sorry. You're just not going to see it unless the deck was stacked against you in gear. (Guess what, This is the NATURE of these types of MMOs.)

 

If you believe this MMO has skill based PVP, You are completely and utterly delusional. If this was a skill-based PVP system, You would see characters getting their key abilities sooner than 36. You would see SIGNIFICANTLY higher health bars. You would see significantly more balance in CC distribution. (Troopers/BHs would flat out just not have one, or solely a Snare.) The Casters would have some of the best hard CC, and no shield to save them. The rogue-esque classes would have the greatest control over the flow of battle through their CCs, while still being in near melee range. Kiting a rogue class should be somewhat difficult, because they are designed to control the flow of the engagement. If you so much as tap them, they lose this ability without wasting CDs due to stealth bugs.

 

So no. Negative. You are missing the point.

I'll reiterate - the current level of burst for Scrapper and its Operative counterpart is indefensible. The lack of a Force Leap styled ability (or Force Speed, or any other gap closer), crowd control other than Flash Grenade, etc...is completely irrelevant.

 

Like I said before, I've played the spec at level 50 while wearing less-than-perfect gear, and the kill speed is quite simply too fast. Also, the sustained damage - while nothing spectacular - isn't nearly as bad as some people try to make it seem. The drawbacks to the spec are poor survivability (which, due to current levels of damage output in PvP, is true for a lot more than just Scrappers) and low combat utility (lack of sprint, CC, snare not having a longer duration than CD, etc...). But, these drawbacks simply do not excuse the silly level of burst damage - nothing can excuse that.

 

Look, I know that no one wants to be nerfed, but these "I'm not overpowered, you'll ruin the class!" etc...claims just don't hold water. I'm sorry, but for skill-based PvP to exist (which is what Bioware supposedly wants), Scrapper needs a nerf to its burst damage.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Wheem