Viikuna Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) And to this I say "working as intended." You need to realize a few things: 1. PvP IS NOT PvE -- they have different needs to be successful. 2. PvP needs PLAYERS and BALANCE to be successful. I see no problem allowing someone that has done nothing but Raids to be able to hop into PvP matches and not be at a gear disadvantage. I also see nothing wrong with a fresh 50 hopping into PvP and not being at a gear disadvantage. This promotes participation and doesn't introduce an unneeded variable that only imbalances PvP more. 3. PvE needs PROGRESSION to be successful. Raiders say themselves that they don't want people to be able to gear up and participate in the hardest raids by ignoring previous content and just PvPing for gear. They also imply they won't Raid unless they are rewarded for it, usually by getting more powerful. By making it so PvP gear is inferior to PvE gear in Raids, you increase the longevity of Raid content since it forces players that want to experience the hardest Raids to progress from the first, to the second, to the third, etc. Raids. This is good because it provides gear progression for raiding, that doesn't imbalance PvP, and it prolongs the use of older raid content. Win, win. 1) True. edit: but also same things. /edit 2.a) So does PvE need balance, or you see guilds bringing only 1-2 classes for the dps, because they are best. Or just 1 healer class. 2.b) If fresh 50 hopping in to PvP should be allowed to do that, then why not fresh 50 hopping in to PvE aswell? Why value other above one, and not equal? Players are needed there just as much, GL soloing that raid... 3) RPG's need PROGRESSION, be it PvE or PvP. That's core idea of RPG anyway, the progression. Both aspects of the game have players that play that aspect of the game only. Full time PvP'ers don't want full time PvE'rs to jump into PvP without doing the "progression" first, just like PvE'ers don't want PvP'ers be able to skip raid content because of gear. Current expertise on PvP gear sets both on equal settings, that PvP player with PvP gear going for PvE gets same disadvantages as PvE player in PvE gear going for PvP. However, your desing would be badly in favor PvE players over PvP players. Edited January 25, 2012 by Viikuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Then you are strategy PVP player, no MMO PVP player... (MMO has development of gear...) I'm an 11 year mmo veteran pvper born in ultima online, I'm not a wow or post wow themepark mmo gear grind pvper, so I fully understand that there are much better ways to implement pvp from a gameplay perspective than a compulsory carrot on a stick gear grind. Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tharnvedra Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 To have 2 tiers (PvE and PvP) is a waste of time and doubles the grind. Only the company benefits because they can create another timesink and the illusion of more content. If a PvEer (raids) wants to PvP a bit why does he need a special PvP set? Older games didnt have PvP only sets at all. The only problem was you HAD to raid to PvP or otherwise pure PvPer had a huge disadvantage gear wise. I have no problem to let PvPers raid in PvP armor why not. They gerinded the progression road they prefered. There are two simple solutions. 1) You dont care and make PvP and PvE gear equal. Only one grind twice the fun no imbalance in PvE or PvP. 2) Make PvE and PvP gear equal but add a stat that only works in PvP or PvE. Like half the normal stats work always and the rest is added by a stat that only works when you do PvE or PvP. Expertise systems are the worst you can use. If you start to PvP and players get + damage AND less damage its a pain to catch up and its only fun for 50% of the guys involved. The guys who do 15% more damage and take 15% less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forkrul Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Up until they raised the RR cap to 100, the WAR gear system was, hands down, the best one I've ever experienced. Caveat: in a non stat-capped game. Yeah, that was just stupid. I quit shortly after that (got 2 chars to 84 before I got bored). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viikuna Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I'm an 11 year mmo veteran pvper born in ultima online, I'm not a wow or post wow themepark mmo gear grind pvper, so I fully understand that there are much better ways to implement pvp from a gameplay perspective than a compulsory carrot on a stick gear grind. WoW wasn't my first MMO either. Project Entropia was. In that game best guns/armor cost you the same as a new car. When you shoot your rifle, you shoot real money. In some pvp areas you can also loot other people, out from items that are worth real money. Every action you do (except very few things) cost you real money. You losing some xp/virtual pixels (worth nothing) on your kindergarten mmo feels nothing. Edited January 25, 2012 by Viikuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quelthela Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Lol you think healers are passing up a 10% heal boost in raids to wear PvE armour? Healers PVE = 1) More durable heals less burst. 2) No defense structure. (focus mana + reg) (If you agroo should be a wipe) Healers PVP = 1) Burst heals (You don't have the luxury to spam heals) 2) Defensive structure as you are the target N 1. (hp + expertise) The rest is crap..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexryan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Making pve gear separate from pvp gear also allows them to put fancy procs and things on the pve gear that would cause pvp'ers to rage... Do you want a swotr version of vial of shadows (from this season wow) - it would proc damage equal to a third of your healthbar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 WoW wasn't my first MMO either. Project Entropia was. In that game best guns/armor cost you the same as a new car. When you shoot your rifle, you shoot real money. In some pvp areas you can also loot other people, out from items that are worth real money. You losing some xp/virtual items on your themepark mmo feels nothing. what exactly is your point? you replied to a post of mine where I refuted that expertise is a good way of keeping people (me) subscribing longer by saying that I'm not an mmo pvper because of that view. If you've played a player loot mmo you should understand that gain/loss pvp systems offer much greater game longevity and better pvp gameplay than a forced gear grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDiggler Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think PVPers should have to PVE both elements makeup an mmorpg... I am a firm believer that tha PVE'er should be forced to PVP and a PVP should be forced to PVE. Full loot get owend PVEers and elite gearz drops from mobs out in the open world.... fight over the mob.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quelthela Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think PVPers should have to PVE both elements makeup an mmorpg... I am a firm believer that tha PVE'er should be forced to PVP and a PVP should be forced to PVE. Full loot get owend PVEers and elite gearz drops from mobs out in the open world.... fight over the mob.... And you will put the whole world against you…. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEAF Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 There are 100s of replies to similar threads from people with different opinions on expertise, such as: "Put a PvE stat on PvE gear instead" "Normalize/cap gear in WZ" "Give PvE gear a trauma-style debuff in WZ" "Don't make gear count at all in WZ" "Make PvE and PvP gear the same" (which is what most posts like this are addressing) A lot of people understand exactly why expertise is in the game, they're just not crazy about the implementation because 10-49 WZ is a blast, and 50 WZ/Illum has various issues. I'll save the reasoning for those other threads. ^^^ Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I think PVPers should have to PVE both elements makeup an mmorpg... I am a firm believer that tha PVE'er should be forced to PVP and a PVP should be forced to PVE. Full loot get owend PVEers and elite gearz drops from mobs out in the open world.... fight over the mob.... this is how ultima used to work and I'd happily play this kind of system again, most pvers wouldn't touch it though and no AAA company has the balls to have a go to date, it's been left to the indies to make this type of game and unfortunately the (lack of) developmental quality shows. wanted a vanquishing weapon, you'd have to pve for it (a chance drop, no guaranteed epics) want to do the hardest pve content, you'd have to do it in a pvp zone (pve zone was there but had lower difficulty pve) risk vs reward. Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quelthela Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm an 11 year mmo veteran pvper born in ultima online, I'm not a wow or post wow themepark mmo gear grind pvper, so I fully understand that there are much better ways to implement pvp from a gameplay perspective than a compulsory carrot on a stick gear grind. I don’t need the gear or something else. It’s the gameplay of wow that was OP and first in class. (Intensive and fast responding) I have no idea about Ultima online or your legenadary PVP cv, what I know is that before wow there was no even good internet connections/technological performance between players to do MMO-PVP interesting…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viikuna Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 what exactly is your point? you replied to a post of mine where I refuted that expertise is a good way of keeping people (me) subscribing longer by saying that I'm not an mmo pvper because of that view. If you've played a player loot mmo you should understand that gain/loss pvp systems offer much greater game longevity and better pvp gameplay than a forced gear grind. I replied what i did, because you started with ego boost. I've played MMOs over 10 years, i don't call myself veteran. And another ~3 years just other online games before that (RTS mainly, still do. <3 Shogun 2 & Starcraft 2). Also because you're yet another person who tries to bring up hes point by mocking other game (and more or less the players who like or have played it) that they(you in this case) for reason or another don't like There is no game that pleases every one. Every game has pros and cons. Personally, only thing "wrong" in WoW for me is, that's too easy to get the gear. And the fact that after so many years of it, it gets boring to play the same game with its style/theme not really never changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rothnang Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Dividing PvP and PvE into two seperate sets of gear is really just the MMO blatantly admitting that progression is not about skill but about gear. So... yea Anyone who's really a hardcore gamer should be against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quelthela Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Dividing PvP and PvE into two seperate sets of gear is really just the MMO blatantly admitting that progression is not about skill but about gear. So... yea Anyone who's really a hardcore gamer should be against it. There is progresion on skills and there is progresion of gear. You just need a balance....but is more easy to blame gear than skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duvodiad Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What if, instead of making a PvP stat, I made a PvE stat to put on gear? In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this: PvP Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +100 *new Expertise* increases damage, healing done, healing received, and defense ratings while in an Operation or Flashpoint. The next tier would look like this: PvP T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +200 *new Expertise* So this itemization system makes PvE gear continually increase in power in PvE ONLY, and is identical to PvP gear when used in PvP. So I have created a system that makes you assumption of "a PvP stat is required to keep Raiders from owning PvPers" as a false accusation. Logically, this means you are wrong. I would rather we didn't do this... LOTRO did this with radiance, and it sucked... people would lff and say "must have 80 radiance... hell, the dungeons even required it. The minute a stat like this appears the community only takes you if you have a certain amount. It always becomes a hard gate to conntent and a huge grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthNethus Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Even battlemaster gear is better than the pve gear i;ve seen so far. False. PVE gear has far superior stats on all pieces with the same secondary stats (crit, surge, alacrity, accuracy, etc) but does not have expertise. The example I'm going to quote below is a comparison between Champion and Columi. The same ratio applies between Battlemaster and Rakata. Oh really? A couple of pieces? How about most. Fine, here you go. Champion Force-Mystic's Robe +86 Endurance +87 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +44 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Columi Force-Mystic's Robe +98 Endurance +114 Willpower +44 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Winner? Columi Champion Force-Mystic's Gloves +94 Endurance +75 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +53 Critical Rating +48 Surge Rating Columi Force-Mystic's Gloves +116 Endurance +93 Willpower +53 Critical Rating +48 Surge Rating Winner? Columi Champion Force-Mystic's Headgear +94 Endurance +75 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +53 Critical Rating +48 Surge Rating Columi Force-Mystic's Headgear +116 Endurance +93 Willpower +53 Critical Rating +48 Surge Rating Winner? Columi Champion Force-Mystic's Boots +86 Endurance +87 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +44 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Columi Force-Mystic's Boots +98 Endurance +114 Willpower +44 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Winner? Columi yet again Champion Force-Mystic's Lower Robe +94 Endurance +75 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +53 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Columi Force-Mystic's Lower Robe +116 Endurance +93 Willpower +53 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Winner, wait for it..... Columi Champion Stalker's Waistwrap +56 Endurance +77 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +10 Power Columi Stalker's Waistwrap +66 Endurance +97 Willpower +10 Power Another amazing win by Columi Champion Force-Master's Bracers +56 Endurance +77 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +10 Critical Rating Columi Force-Master's Bracers +66 Endurance +97 Willpower +10 Critical Rating Columi wins again Champion Force-Master's Relay +70 Endurance +77 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +41 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Columi Force-Master's Relay +80 Endurance +97 Willpower +41 Power +48 Alacrity Rating Columi wins, wow does it sound like I am repeating myself? Champion Force-Master's Implant +76 Endurance +66 Willpower +46 Expertise Rating +48 Critical Rating +48 Alacrity Rating Columi Force-Master's Implant +93 Endurance +80 Willpower +48 Critical Rating +48 Alacrity Rating Columi wins! I think I have proven my point. Go spread your ignorance elsewhere. Next time you make a statement like that, back it up with facts. Edit: Just wanted to point out to the seemingly brainless masses that, the differences between any given tier of PVE gear and PVP gear are essentially a "Wash". Why? Expertise = ~10-15% bonus dmg, ~10-15% dmg reduction. PVE Gear = ~10-15% more dmg from stats, ~10-15% more HP from stats. Making sense yet? Essentially, a player in full Columi fighting a person in full Champion gear 1v1 is a completely even match. The only difference being that, the player in Champ gear will not perform as well in PVE. Ergo, BioWare's loot system for PVE and PVP = Working as intended. Thank you... Goodnight. /Thread. Edited January 25, 2012 by DarthNethus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firequill Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Phat Lootz yo! You know it! It's all about the.. Phat Lootz Yo! That's what you want. That's what you need. And that's what you'll get. If you pvp, you need the.. Phat Lootz If you PVE you need the.. Phat Lootz! You asked for it You got it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekrath Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Its plain short and simple people i will answer this quesion so people can stop asking it ..... Expertise is must and it is needed it is to stop people who raid from dominating the pvp side of the game its not hard to understand this.. If they just copied the stats from pve to the pvp gear then it would ruin pve so they make the stats a little lower then pve and they add the expertise so people who raid dont face roll you. There now you have it stop asking why its in the game ..... That may be true, but you can solve that by adding a PVE stat to the raid gear instead of a PVP stat to the PVP gear. The Raiders are going to gear grind anyway, so not a problem for them, and then PVP will become skill based rather than gear based, which is good as well. Edit: I replied before reading the responses and see this has already been suggested numerous times. Edited January 25, 2012 by Mekrath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krylaancelo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What if, instead of making a PvP stat, I made a PvE stat to put on gear? In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this: PvP Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +100 *new Expertise* increases damage, healing done, healing received, and defense ratings while in an Operation or Flashpoint. The next tier would look like this: PvP T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +200 *new Expertise* So this itemization system makes PvE gear continually increase in power in PvE ONLY, and is identical to PvP gear when used in PvP. So I have created a system that makes you assumption of "a PvP stat is required to keep Raiders from owning PvPers" as a false accusation. Logically, this means you are wrong. And this would make PvE gear just as good as PvP gear in PvP. Not ok with me or a lot of other PvPers. PvP gear should always be the best in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthNethus Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 That may be true, but you can solve that by adding a PVE stat to the raid gear instead of a PVP stat to the PVP gear. The Raiders are going to gear grind anyway, so not a problem for them, and then PVP will become skill based rather than gear based, which is good as well. Why is that needed? As it stands, a player in a full set of PVE gear (Columi) against a player in a full set of PVP gear (Champion) is a 100% even match 1v1. See my post above for some funny little things I like to call "Facts". However, take those same 2 players and put them in a raid together... The player in Columi will drastically out-perform the player in Champion gear. PVE-geared players already have an advantaged in PVE over PVP-geared players and are at NO DISADVANTAGE in PVP. Again... /Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekrath Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 And this would make PvE gear just as good as PvP gear in PvP. Not ok with me or a lot of other PvPers. PvP gear should always be the best in PvP. Why should success in PvP be determined by anything other than skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthNethus Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 And this would make PvE gear just as good as PvP gear in PvP. Not ok with me or a lot of other PvPers. PvP gear should always be the best in PvP. PVE gear is already as good as PVP gear in PVP and better in PVE. Posts on previous page. It's not okay with me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selestian Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Its plain short and simple people i will answer this quesion so people can stop asking it ..... Expertise is must and it is needed it is to stop people who raid from dominating the pvp side of the game its not hard to understand this.. Wrong. If PVP rewards are on par with raiding gear there is no need for expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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